LeBron - Greatest of All-Time?

[ifmanis5]

Allow me to be cynical for a moment...

- Manipulated the Cavs roster the first time around until it obviously failed and rather than stay and clean up the mess (and overcome Del West banging his mom meltdown) he abandoned ship to a stacked deck (possible tampering to get Bosh) during a ridiculous and narcissistic TV show orchestrated by him.
- Wade taught him the ways of the Sith by flopping and crying to the refs to get his way for Chip number 1 which was stolen from Rondo and ridiculous officiating. GJGE.
- Chip number 2 was the Spurs choking and Ray Allen bailing him out after he airballed the potential buzzer beater and almost totally tanked their chances in the 4th qtr of Game 7. (Kobe had Ron Artest to bail his ass out too after he nearly cost his team a Chip)
- After firing a successful coach and once again creating a new roster (many of which he threw under the bus on Twitter during the season and hanging with his dark mentor Wade) gets Chip number 3 after Dray Green freaks out and Steph Curry suddenly can't hit a shot after going through a grueling conference run that LeBron didn't need to.

Yes, this is a beautiful dark twisted fantasy version (MJ has his own "baseball" baninshment, etc.) but a case can be made and I'm happy to make it.

 

[nighthob]

Allow me to be cynical for a moment...

- Manipulated the Cavs roster the first time around until it obviously failed and rather than stay and clean up the mess (and overcome Del West banging his mom meltdown) he abandoned ship to a stacked deck (possible tampering to get Bosh) during a ridiculous and narcissistic TV show orchestrated by him.

The other Paxson brother was there when he arrived, and James certainly didn't make the decision to let Carlos Boozer out of his deal before the Cavs could re-seign him. And he wasn't the one that hired Danny Ferry, whose first act on the job was to announce that Joe Johnson was overrated and promptly signed Larry Hughes' contract year heroics and Donyell Marshall's Undead Corpse instead.

 

[ifmanis5]

The other Paxson brother was there when he arrived, and James certainly didn't make the decision to let Carlos Boozer out of his deal before the Cavs could re-seign him. And he wasn't the one that hired Danny Ferry, whose first act on the job was to announce that Joe Johnson was overrated and promptly signed Larry Hughes' contract year heroics and Donyell Marshall's Undead Corpse instead.

LeBron was the guy who brought in Shaq, Jamison, lobbied for Mike Brown who was awful. By the end of his run there he had as much or more input than Ferry.

EDIT: The real point is that rather than work his way through these problems (some of which were his doing) he bailed and only returned when quality players (Kyrie, who hit the big shot) were in place for a soft landing.

 

[Marbleheader]

One game doesn't leapfrog him over like a dozen guys.

 

[zenter]

One game doesn't leapfrog him over like a dozen guys.

Nope, and it didn't. This season nudged him closer/over. His body of work is just more impressive when you adjust for eras.

 

[Erik Hanson's Hook]

Re: Prime Bird

I was six in '86, so I just missed his peak. My most vivid memory of him is that triple overtime Portland game where he hit that running 3 with the clock running out. Of course, he was on fumes then, but I remember as a 12 year old being amazed at this guy's basketball intelligence.

As I got older, I hit up YouTube to check out highlights of Prime Bird. Like, 25 year old 6'9" 240 pound, no back or Achilles trouble Bird. Jesus, this guy was unbelievable. The no look passes, the shooting didplays, the constant cerebral plays. The 10 career boards a game. I was blown away.

I guess my question is...for those of you that saw him, how great was Larry Bird in his prime, really? Because the highlights I've seen (and random full games that I've watched, where he'll put up 36pts 17boards 9assists like nothing) are amazing.

Lebron is undoubtedly the better pure athlete, but I wonder if we are underestimating Bird. Because the clips I've seen are as impressive (in different ways) as anything I've seen from Lebron.

Also, not for nothing, but at 6'9", Bird is one of the few small forwards Lebron would actually be looking up to.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Me personally? I'm weighting scoring a little light because of light-years of distance between mid-90s defense and modern defense. Both structurally and schematically.


Were you watching the same game? Nearly every possession of the last quarter would have been called for illegal D in the old days. Every single possession on both sides of the ball. And that's by design - all the schemes are fluid and all offenses try to use the defensive fluidity to exploit mismatches.

The reason LeBron was "shut down" was because the defensive schemes are significantly more complex. And LeBron was still able to dominate despite this. Steph gets a pass for poor performance because he's still injured, but still he garnered a huge proportion of attention ("gravity").

I wish someone could do a step counter for great players in the 90s versus now. I'd guess that players are routinely taking ~25-50% more steps per game - there's so much more movement and action to get the same result in 24 seconds. It's partly why JVG hates when teams take so long to start their set plays - there isn't enough time these days.


No, and no. The players are much stronger, better conditioned, eat better, have fewer bad habits, have better medical care, and are better trained. Not to mention they use help defense. The Cavs and especially the Warriors could limit Jordan. That's not to say he couldn't score 30. It's to say that his scoring 30 against those teams would a Kobe-style empty-calorie scoring. Or young-LeBron-against-Cs empty-calorie scoring.

You know how Reggie Lewis shut down Jordan simply by being more athletic and neutralizing Jordan's habitual tendencies? Now make that a team of Reggie Lewises, except smarter and stronger. That's the Warriors. And then multiply one of those guys by 2 -that's Iggy. Multiply that guy by 2 - that's Green. Now allow them all to help and rotate and switch and partial-zone-ify.


No. Any comparison of players between eras should start with understanding the structural differences between the eras. What do the rules promote and penalize?

Then you assume that a league-average player in any given year is better than the league-average player in any preceding year, and measurably better than previous eras. Every study of every area of human competition shows this - what was once record-breaking marathon time is now average, what was once elite golf score is now JV. It's folly to assume that evolution doesn't impact the NBA.

THEN, and only then, do you look at individuals.

Brilliant post. Its simply impossible to compare guys across eras but you and nighthob are spot on - if you dropped peak or even present day LeBron into the mid 90s NBA, he would destroy many of those teams. Facing some of those thin rosters, such as the mid-90s Clippers, would make him look virtually unstoppable.

 

[Erik Hanson's Hook]

One last thing, about this generation's "bigger, faster, stronger" argument. I tend to look at it like this: if Bird (or any elite player from another era) were born in the 90's instead of past decades, they'd be loading on supplements and modern nutrition just like today's players. Bird today, on a state-of-the-art training regimen, would most likely have about 10 more pounds on lean muscle in him, with increased lateral quickness and athletic ability.

I mean, didn't this dude use to pound beers after a lot games? Send him to Athlete's Performance in Arizona and you'd have a totally different specimen.

 

[nighthob]

LeBron was the guy who brought in Shaq, Jamison, lobbied for Mike Brown who was awful. By the end of his run there he had as much or more input than Ferry.

I hate to point this out, but the Shaq and Jamison acquisitions were better than the drek that came before them. So if you're going to blame him for those moves, then at least credit him with being a better GM than his boss. Because he at the least turned Ferry's FA follies into guys that contributed. The Cav's biggest problem was that in an offseason with LeBron on a rookie deal and acres of cap space, and the ability to sign two max guys, Danny Ferry came away with an oft injured volume scorer that couldn't shoot, a pair of forwards who were nearing social security age and guy whose claim to fame was to have been obliterated by LeBron in an iconic posterizing. From that point forward they were bailing water.

Cleveland's problem was having the worst management in the game, and after they finally shitcanned the incompetent Ferry, they hired the guy that was, prior to Hinkiemania, considered David Kahn's main competition for the unGM of the year award. No, LeBron shouldn't have rewarded Cleveland for being badly run.

 

[reggiecleveland]

Bird was a much better half court offensive player it isn't close. You had to double him in the post unless you put a 4 on him. What Lebron did to sore back Iggy in the post Larry does all day. He was more agressive and would go off on a bad matchup. He was a better passer. He found guys for layups out of doubles.

Lebron is much better when running and a better defender.

As for athleticism it is closer than you think. Bird was probably longer, and though he was not a leaper a 6-9 guy with that quickness is a great athlete.

A comparison of Lebron to Bird or Magic makes more sense than to Jordan. Lebron is a combnation of Magic and Bird which is crazy great. He may be better than Magic on the break since he is an unstoppable finisher.

As for Lebron being bigger due to supplements, etc. Maybe, but probably not. I saw him as a kid and he was naturally massive. I think a kid like that 9/10 ends up in the nfl, but in the 1 in 300 imillion times he grows to 6-8 and ends up on an insanely serious AAU team at age 13.

I still place Lebron behind MJ. Jordan was better at guarding perimeter scorers, who more often than not are the best players.

LBJ is not quite as nasty as my big three of Bird, MJ, and Magic. He is the best all round player, but that is over rated. Pedroia is a better all round player than Ted Williams, but who would you want to build a team around for 20 years?

I will say this Russell Jordan, Bird, Magic, in their prime ever seen as deeple flawed with questionable skill sets 4 days before being jumped to GOAT status? No. So Lebron does this again, he can get there. I mean was Bird's84-87 run ever needing a suspension to get him to the top? If Lebron win another title or two in the Cleve I may change my vote. He is certainly in the conversation already.

Best thing about this? Kobe is already forgotten.

 

[Kliq]

The best great player comp for LeBron to me is Oscar.

 

[reggiecleveland]

That is a pretty good point, physically dominant, decent shooter, did everything well.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Bird was a much better half court offensive player it isn't close. You had to double him in the post unless you put a 4 on him. What Lebron did to sore back Iggy in the post Larry does all day. He was more agressive and would go off on a bad matchup. He was a better passer. He found guys for layups out of doubles.

Lebron is much better when running and a better defender.

As for athleticism it is closer than you think. Bird was probably longer, and though he was not a leaper a 6-9 guy with that quickness is a great athlete.

A comparison of Lebron to Bird or Magic makes more sense than to Jordan. Lebron is a combnation of Magic and Bird which is crazy great. He may be better than Magic on the break since he is an unstoppable finisher.

As for Lebron being bigger due to supplements, etc. Maybe, but probably not. I saw him as a kid and he was naturally massive. I think a kid like that 9/10 ends up in the nfl, but in the 1 in 300 imillion times he grows to 6-8 and ends up on an insanely serious AAU team at age 13.

I still place Lebron behind MJ. Jordan was better at guarding perimeter scorers, who more often than not are the best players.

LBJ is not quite as nasty as my big three of Bird, MJ, and Magic. He is the best all round player, but that is over rated. Pedroia is a better all round player than Ted Williams, but who would you want to build a team around for 20 years?

I will say this Russell Jordan, Bird, Magic, in their prime ever seen as deeple flawed with questionable skill sets 4 days before being jumped to GOAT status? No. So Lebron does this again, he can get there. I mean was Bird's84-87 run ever needing a suspension to get him to the top? If Lebron win another title or two in the Cleve I may change my vote. He is certainly in the conversation already.

Best thing about this? Kobe is already forgotten.

There's so much in this post that is ridiculous.

First, that you're still trying to make the same criticisms of LeBron's post game that you tried to make in the game thread. Those criticisms aren't actually based on anything. And LeBron ends up doubled in the post 90% of the time he touches the ball there. It's really, really hard to take analysis seriously that's so ill-informed.

Second, that you think -- for some reason -- it's cut and dry enough that you can simply say "Bird's a better passer." Based on what? I'd be perfectly willing to call it a push. But to just flatly state "Bird's better. He gets guys layups out of doubles" smacks of an agenda. It also, incidentally, ignores that LeBron's probably the best passer out of the post in the NBA right now.

Lastly -- it's not "closer than you think" in terms of athleticism. It's not close at all. LeBron may the best athlete of all time in any sport. Is Bird one of the top 100 athletes to play in the NBA? 200? 500?

 

[loshjott]

NYT: Twenty Years Apart, Signature Moments for LeBron James and Michael Jordan

"Twenty years apart, Michael Jordan and LeBron James wept unashamedly after winning an N.B.A. championship on Father’s Day."

 

[jablo1312]

Allow me to be cynical for a moment...

- Manipulated the Cavs roster the first time around until it obviously failed and rather than stay and clean up the mess (and overcome Del West banging his mom meltdown) he abandoned ship to a stacked deck (possible tampering to get Bosh) during a ridiculous and narcissistic TV show orchestrated by him.
- Wade taught him the ways of the Sith by flopping and crying to the refs to get his way for Chip number 1 which was stolen from Rondo and ridiculous officiating. GJGE.
- Chip number 2 was the Spurs choking and Ray Allen bailing him out after he airballed the potential buzzer beater and almost totally tanked their chances in the 4th qtr of Game 7. (Kobe had Ron Artest to bail his ass out too after he nearly cost his team a Chip)
- After firing a successful coach and once again creating a new roster (many of which he threw under the bus on Twitter during the season and hanging with his dark mentor Wade) gets Chip number 3 after Dray Green freaks out and Steph Curry suddenly can't hit a shot after going through a grueling conference run that LeBron didn't need to.

Yes, this is a beautiful dark twisted fantasy version (MJ has his own "baseball" baninshment, etc.) but a case can be made and I'm happy to make it.

I know this is tongue in cheek but how on earth did LeBron "almost totally tank their chances" in game 7 2013? I remember him hitting like 4-5 jumpers in the 4th.

My other favorite part of this is the 2012 ECF. The refs had that awful game 2 (especially the Wade judo chop to Rondo's head), sure, but the Heat's 3rd best player missed the first 4 games of that series (and only played 14 minutes in the game 5 loss). He returned to help close out the Celtics with a jump shooting barrage in game 7. If anyone was "lucky" that series went 7 games, it was the Celtics.

 

[ifmanis5]

I know this is tongue in cheek but how on earth did LeBron "almost totally tank their chances" in game 7 2013? I remember him hitting like 4-5 jumpers in the 4th.

Good catch, not Game 7. I keep thinking the Ray Allen Game was Game 7 but it was in fact Game 6. He was a disaster in the 4th qtr of Game 6.

 

[coremiller]

Good catch, not Game 7. I keep thinking the Ray Allen Game was Game 7 but it was in fact Game 6. He was a disaster in the 4th qtr of Game 6.

Whaaaaat??? Is this a joke? In the 4th Quarter + OT, LeBron had 18 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 block and 1 steal, and was the best defensive player on the floor. He finished with a triple-double for the game. Zach Lowe, the best NBA writer around, started his recap of the game by writing:

What LeBron James did in the fourth quarter … holy hell. All non-Spurs fans should be glad he came through like that, even though he was indeed in attack mode almost from the opening tip, because the volume on the “WHAT IS LEBRON’S LEGACY!!!???” talk can shift down a couple of notches heading into Game 7. We can just enjoy the freaking game.

 

[jablo1312]

To be fair he did have like 3 horrible turnover and a couple bricked 3's (although he also made 1 of them) in the last 2 minutes or so. But yea, they wouldn't have been anywhere near the championship without what he did in that 4th quarter. Completely took over the game on both ends of the floor. Underrated part- his incredible full court 1 on 1 defense vs Tony Parker after the Ray Allen make. Hounded him 94 feet into a fall away airball that missed by a couple feet

 

[ifmanis5]

Whaaaaat??? Is this a joke? In the 4th Quarter + OT, LeBron had 18 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 block and 1 steal, and was the best defensive player on the floor. He finished with a triple-double for the game. Zach Lowe, the best NBA writer around, started his recap of the game by writing:

You added OT. In the 4th qtr it was a very different story. Check out the game log and the game thread here if you can find it. He was a mess.
Here's the log: http://espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=400467338

 

[coremiller]

You added OT. In the 4th qtr it was a very different story. Check out the game log and the game thread here if you can find it. He was a mess.
Here's the log: http://espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=400467338

I already have the PBP gamelog open. In OT, James had 2 pts, 2 rebounds, 2 assists, and 1 steal. So in the 4th quarter he had 16/2/2 with a block and great defense. Miami scored 30 points in the quarter, and James scored or assisted at least 20 of them (maybe more, because the PBP doesn't show passes leading to shooting fouls). He was awesome.

 

[Erik Hanson's Hook]

[...] you think -- for some reason -- it's cut and dry enough that you can simply say "Bird's a better passer." Based on what?

 

[reggiecleveland]

There's so much in this post that is ridiculous.

First, that you're still trying to make the same criticisms of LeBron's post game that you tried to make in the game thread. Those criticisms aren't actually based on anything. And LeBron ends up doubled in the post 90% of the time he touches the ball there. It's really, really hard to take analysis seriously that's so ill-informed.

Second, that you think -- for some reason -- it's cut and dry enough that you can simply say "Bird's a better passer." Based on what? I'd be perfectly willing to call it a push. But to just flatly state "Bird's better. He gets guys layups out of doubles" smacks of an agenda. It also, incidentally, ignores that LeBron's probably the best passer out of the post in the NBA right now.

Lastly -- it's not "closer than you think" in terms of athleticism. It's not close at all. LeBron may the best athlete of all time in any sport. Is Bird one of the top 100 athletes to play in the NBA? 200? 500?

I didn't even say Bird was a better player. Lebron, just that Bird was better in the half court. magic was better on the break, which is what made the Celtics Lakers matchups so compelling, tempo mattered so much. Lebron is way better than either at their weakest speed, and probably better than Magic in every way, possibly not passing, since Magic was not nearly the athletic finisher and passing was his by necessity his thing. Lebron's excellence in the break makes him a better player than Bird, as his ability to defend virtually any type of player much better than Bird.

'Based on what?" What are you 19 years old? It is overly offensive to say Larry Bird was a better passer than LBJ? Even when limiting it to just the half court? Really? Larry fucking Bird? Passing ability of Larry Bird? Seriously that is the outlandish assertion you point to? Lebron averages an entire .9 more assists per game than Bird, did despite bringing up the ball and leading the break frequently. Something Bird didn't do much. Good for LBJ he has abilities Larry didn't have, but again I qualified what type of passing.

The same goes for his post game. Much of this is based on the diminished importance of the low post game in today's game, and the general poor quality of low post players compared to the 80s, at all levels. Understandably it is easier to find guys that can dribble than bigs that can play, plus the 3-point line has made the deep jumper more valuable. Coaches don't teach the low post game much. If you think being the best post guy or one of the best low post guys today is as big as an accomplishment as an era with Kevin McHale, Kareem,Hakeem, Ewing, Dantley, then you may have an agenda. It was an area of the game that was stressed at the time, while the 3 was under utilized. Has LBJ been born during the 60s he may well have been the best low post guy ever, but he wasn't, and he isn't. It is more about the era, but 1986 Bird was better int he low post than LBJ is now. That's my opinion just like your statement that he isn't is just your opinion, and I suggest may show you are ill informed of Bird's era. Perimeter defense is another world now and I am uncertain how Bird would compete against guys LBJ deals with from the wing, but I expect put in today's game Bird would shoot a ton more 3s, and do that better than Lebron also.

My statement about athleticism is the often repeated idea, at times by Bird's supporters that he was a lousy athlete he wasn't. He was quick and agile for very long dude. It wasn't all toughness and savy. He was too big for quick guys and too quick for big guys. Certainly not in Lebron's league, but his game was not 100% skill.

Anyway you need to lighten the fuck up. You are offering little more than your opinion and childish petulance at criticisms aimed at your binky. And I didn't even say Bird was better.

The thread title has a question mark in it. So yeah I am offering my fucking opinion. And you certainly have a an agenda, to defend LBJ, so again lighten the fuck up.

 

[tbrep]

If the Cavs beat the Warriors in next year's Finals, the question in the thread title should never ever be asked again.

 

[Dave Stapleton]

If the Cavs beat the Warriors in next year's Finals, the question in the thread title should never ever be asked again.

You heard it here first. Neither team will be in the finals so it won't matter.

 

[reggiecleveland]

If the Cavs beat the Warriors in next year's Finals, the question in the thread title should never ever be asked again.

How about we see how KD fits in, if Curry regresses, how the GS big guys play, etc before declaring their defeat the ultimate accomplishment. Maybe if what you propose happens Kerr will be questioned as much as LBJ raised.