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Kyrie speculation

Discussion in 'Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Celtics Forum' started by DrewDawg, Jan 29, 2019.

  1. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    I don't know. Didn't we have numbers a week or 2 back that everyone actually plays better when Kyrie is on the court and everyone plays worse (except for JB) when Rozier is? The team itself scores more, and more efficiently, when Kyrie is on the floor, and the defense is essentially a wash.
     
  2. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    1,357
    Kyrie gets respect in the last two minutes of a close game. That's where it matters in the playoffs. Harden is a flopper every second he's on the floor.
     
  3. JCizzle

    JCizzle Member SoSH Member

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    He's been a very willing passer recently too. He's really taking that part of his game to the next level.
     
  4. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    Tatum averages 1.06 PPS with Kyrie on the court, and .96 with him off. Every type and distance of shot, Tatum shoots better when Kyrie is on the floor.

    http://nbashotcharts.com/compare?id=-1005480603
     
  5. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    My opinion is that KI really thinks about his legacy and wants to be the best player on a team that wins a championship.

    We can debate whether it's possible for this to happen, but when KI says things like, "I can do whatever I want on the court," I think it's pretty clear that KI thinks it's possible.

    He's never going to have a better chance to do that than with this Cs team at this particular time. And if not this year, maybe next year. I'm not saying KI is going to feel this way forever, but it seems pretty clear to me that it's what he wants now.
     
  6. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Question for those in the region - is local sports radio running with some sort of narrative that the Cs are better without Kyrie? A casual fan texted me about this last night before the game and I know he listens to sports talk on his commute.

    Perhaps its just because Irving didn't play last night but it seems to be coming up more frequently here and elsewhere of late.

    And, when adjusting for the level of competition, the Cs are not better without Kyrie. I mean I am sure you can slice data to make that case but you would be straining in Van-like fashion to do so.
     
  7. TheoShmeo

    TheoShmeo Skrub's sympathy case Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I hope you're right. My gut, and what I wrote above, tell me he's gone. But you make fair points. The one thing I would counter with is that he is mercurial. If there's a player whose moods and motivations are hard to predict, and whose views could easily change, it's Kyrie. Which makes speculation about him more difficult than with most, in my opinion.
     
  8. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    It wouldn't be local sports radio if they didn't react to the most recent and tiniest sample of events. All you need to know about sports radio is the moniker "Average Al".
     
  9. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Indeed. And the person I mentioned did, in fact, refer to Horford with that name last year and also stated definitively that Average Al wasn't worth his contract.
     
  10. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    Part of the problem is that sports radio (and even more knowledgeable fans) focus too heavily on the fact that the Celtics were "one game away from the Finals" last year despite no Kyrie. While correct, context matters:

    Brad did a masterful job replacing Kyrie's minutes and contributions. Rozier stepped up and replaced some of Kyrie's ball handling responsibilities, and developed a nice shooting touch to go with it. Brown and Tatum were able to replace some of Kyrie's scoring, which was really an unexpected gift. Horford stepped up as well. But the reality is that the Celtics won only one road game in 8 tries, and that win was in OT; during those 8 games, they scored 92, 102, 86, 101, 92, 86, 102, and 99 points. That 95 ppg average was a whole 7 points less than their regular season average on the road. And they lost Game 7 because they could only put 79 points on the board.

    What they couldn't replace was Kyrie's consistency, which matters a lot in a long and deep playoff series. This season it's a similar story. They can replace Kyrie with Rozier over small stretches. But of the 8 games that Terry has started, only one was against a quality opponent (Utah), and that was a big L where Rozier was a -18 despite scoring 22 points.
     
  11. TripleOT

    TripleOT Member SoSH Member

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    Why would Kyrie want to go to the Lakers and be their THIRD star, after Davis and Lebron, again? Unless he wants to play there because of the Hollywood thing, it doesn't make sense. Boston has enough talent right now to get to the Finals and have a puncher's chance against the Warriors.

    It's his fucking job as the alpha superstar to get his teammates in line, and facilitate to get them to maximize their play in their roles. He forced a trade here because he wanted to be The Man, and if he bounces for LA, all it means to me is he is a poser. I think this Lakers talk is BS.
     
  12. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Again, things change. The Woj piece in the other thread suggests that Kyrie may have changed his mind (or someone with an agenda is suggesting as much) and given recent events, its not out of the blue.

    Winning is hard in the NBA, especially with the advent of the super-team. Maybe after having his own team and being the alpha, he has learned that a shot at winning is more important. Or maybe he dislikes Boston or Stevens or something like that.

    People often think they want something and when they get it, reality doesn't meet expectations. You can dislike Irving if he has changed his mind but it happens all the time in every walk of life - not just professional sports.
     
  13. TripleOT

    TripleOT Member SoSH Member

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    Kyrie has a squad that was a couple of three point makes from the Finals, without two max players in the lineup. He's the leader of one of the most storied teams in sports, a team with ownership/management/coaching as good as any team in the league, in a city he claimed over and over again that he feels a great connection, a city crazy about sports, a city where icons of the sports world have played and thrived.

    If this isn't good enough for him, he can go fuck himself. For the record, I think this talk about him leaving is false flag bullshit from teams and players who don't want Boston to add Davis to Kyrie and company. I'll be floored if he doesn't re-up at 12:01 am on July 1.
     
  14. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    Your casual fan friend needs to turn his radio off for sure.

    Some people fell in love with the youth movement and its unexpectedly deep playoff run last year. The same people don't look at the numbers, like at all.

    I wouldn't say that any of the hosts are pushing that Kyrie narrative, but some of the callers are. It's a current fellowship of the miserable talking point, along with the "cut Hayward" movement.
     
  15. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Sure it's possible that Kyrie has changed his mind, but while talent is one reason that these guys are in the NBA and we are not, ego also has a ton to do with success of professional athletes.

    I would be shocked if Kyrie didn't think that he was good enough to lead three to six former or borderline All-Stars to a championship. He's 26. I'm sure he thinks he's the best PG in the game and he wants to prove it. I don't know what it gets him in terms of legacy to go to a superteam and be the second- or third-best player even if they will multiple championships(*).

    Remember, Kyrie hasn't even played with the Cs in the playoffs yet.

    I'm not saying Kyrie won't ever change his mind but I can't imagine that the events of the last three months have given him cause to bail now. Sure he may have a few more doubts than he did at the start of the season, but he's gotta believe that the Cs have a realistic chance of winning it all (even if they are not favorites).

    (*) I'll agree in advance that the statement that his legacy won't be enhanced by being second or third fiddle on a championship team is an assumption, not a conclusion, but it seems like this is the thinking that has driven his actions of the last 18 or so months.
     
  16. tbb345

    tbb345 Member SoSH Member

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    I think it depends on where he goes, no? If he goes to the Knicks then yeah I think it can be chalked up to Kyrie changing his mind.
    However, if he goes to the Lakers and back with LeBron, that's much more than a simple thing that happens in every walk of life. That directly goes against pretty much everything he has said or done in the last year and I think it would be very fair to think he's a phony or a poser and call him such.
     
  17. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Well to be fair, he has never outright said he hated LeBron or disliked playing with him. However you are correct in that the signs were clearly there, starting with his push to be traded from the Cavs.

    More to the point, I dont know the man but it appears that Kyrie cares even less about what fans/media think of him than Durant. While KD is widely reviled in non (and even in some) Warriors circles as a bandwagoner of sorts, he has rings to show for it.

    Personally, I want to see Irving stay - and I was wrong about disliking the deal that brought him to Boston - but I don't begrudge anyone, professional athlete or not, from pursuing their goals. Were Kyrie to bolt, I have no doubt that he would be labeled a poser and/or a bandwagoner as well. In my view, he would be just another person in their mid 20s who is still figuring out what is really important. As everyone knows, priorities change and personal happiness is important, even if it causes critical backlash.
     
  18. bakahump

    bakahump Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Some of us are acting like Kyrie wants to leave because he has no shot of winning.
    This year he was what a 5-10% chance (number pulled out of my ass).
    That number will only go up as GS ages and unravels and Tatum improves, ages and becomes the "Vet" that Kyrie has wished for.

    Its not like he has NO SHOT (think Heat hornets wizards) of winning a championship in the next 2-6 seasons.

    And thats if they add nothing. Even if Davis is off the menu, they still have multiple picks that they can exercise or spend for another Star Vet.

    What exactly makes the Celts worse moving forward, that would make Kyrie want to leave? Losing Al? Gordon, JT and Brown improving?
     
  19. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    In short, nobody knows what Irving wants or thinks of Boston's shot to compete except him/his camp and possibly the Cs front office.

    The reality is that he can pretty much squash any questions right now at no real cost to him - it won't change the contract terms the Cs offer. In doing so, he would aslo enable Ainge to pursue improvements to the team without having to worry about another huge variable. Perhaps he has already communicated this.

    It would be nice if he did so publicly if only to tamp down the propaganda coming out of the Legion Of Klutch.
     
  20. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    The thing is, the bolded is not really his problem at all. Nor is it in his best interests to say anything. He's already made his public statements back in October.
     
  21. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Its not his problem but I disagree that it isn't in his best interest. Its a potential distraction for his team. To be clear, the impact of the distraction is likely marginal but it also doesn't hurt him to reiterate that he wants to stay in Boston. It certainly shouldn't deter potential suitors from checking in on him after the season.
     
  22. bosockboy

    bosockboy Member SoSH Member

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    Random thought but if 1984 Michael Jordan would have entered the league in this financial structure would he have stayed in Chicago or engineered his way out to a more glamorous franchise?
     
  23. mcpickl

    mcpickl Member SoSH Member

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    He already did this in the pre-season and people are still writing this crap, coincidentally right after he said he talked to LeBron on the phone. Then the jackals starting connecting dots, whether there were dots there or not.

    Maybe he will respond, but I wouldn't if I were him.

    Once you respond to one dumb story, you have to respond to every dumb story.
     
  24. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    He would have stayed with Chicago at least 7 years before requesting a trade, in the current financial structure. The Bulls were really good by that point in his career.

    The Pelicans have no one to blame for this but themselves. They panicked and tried to build too fast around AD early in his career, when there was no realistic way he would leave the team after his rookie deal. The current NBA financial structure is extremely favorable to small-market teams who want 5+ years to build around young, promising pieces.
     
  25. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    Is it too early to ask what we'd do if Kyrie walks?
     
  26. Koji’s Slider

    Koji’s Slider Member SoSH Member

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    Cry
     
  27. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    Well, Rozier DOES play well as a starter. We'd keep JB and JT...
     
  28. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    Stephen A. Smith on 98.7 NYC ESPN saying he's hearing Kyrie's name associated with the Knicks even though Kyrie has come out and denied he's changed his mind.
     
  29. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    He has?

    EDIT: Saw this:


    EDIT: Also, he's off the injury report.
     
  30. ifmanis5

    ifmanis5 Member SoSH Member

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    Stephen A. Smith on ESPN just now, obviously take it with a grain of salt, says he hears Kyrie wouldn't mind leaving for New York City.
     
  31. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    With the Globe report above, and SAS saying the opposite, I feel better about him staying.
     
  32. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I disagree with anyone saying that another Kyrie statement that he plans to stay in Boston is a bad thing. Yes he said it at the start of the season but, again. things change, especially given the team's struggles at various points during the season.

    It would effectively render all of these rumors as noise and it would cost Irving nothing. Maybe the front office and team already have that information but if they don't, it hurts at the margin.
     
  33. ifmanis5

    ifmanis5 Member SoSH Member

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    After absorbing everything I'm now terrified that Kyrie walks out the door this summer and we get nothing back. It's more real now than it was this morning.
     
  34. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    I’m not terrified but it’s definitely a possibility now. Lots of variables still to play out though.
     
  35. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    I feel better after that Globe article. And I’ll feel better if he drops 50 tomorrow. Celtics fans there need to be loud.
     
  36. Imbricus

    Imbricus Member SoSH Member

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    I really believe the front office has their finger on the pulse of this situation. If they thought there was a not insignificant chance he was going to bolt, they'd trade him right now. I think this is just bored members of the media fishing for a story.
     
  37. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    And the Lakers trying to scare the Pelicans that the Celtics' offer won't be on the table on July 1st.
     
  38. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    It shows how successful such bullshit plant stories are. A lot of smart people here are concerned that it seems way more likely today than a week ago that a guy who promised to stay here and stands to make loads more money here might decide to go leave and join either A) a guy who he ran out of town to get away from because he hated playing with him so much or B) a franchise that is so poorly run that it should by all rights be under receivership by the owners--all because a sports agent is playing the very few cards that he has in an underleveraged situation and is trying to skew the market and optimize things for his client.

    Propaganda works. Even smart people turn stupid when the good stuff hits their eyes and ears.
     
  39. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    The thing that pisses me off most about it is that Brian Windhorst and Chris Haynes can hide behind "I'm just repeating what my sources are telling me." The story doesn't exist until they spread it to benefit their sources.
     
  40. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    Unfortunately that’s their job.
     
  41. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    I'm guessing that Kyrie's disaffection is real. The young guys-- who won a bunch of playoff games last year without Kyrie (including some games when he never bothered to show up because he had scheduled minor surgery)-- think they're pretty good, and refuse to genuflect to the appropriate depth. That's what the team meetings and the call to LeBron a few weeks ago were about. Kyrie wants the Celtics to be his team, but on his terms, and the kids (particularly Jaylen Brown) aren't buying into it.

    Trade him to the Knicks for Kanter, Nitilikina and the Knicks' unprotected 2018 first rounder. Save them the uncertainty of luring him as a free agent this Summer.
     
  42. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    When a lot of the young guys are traded for Anthony Davis, I don't think there would be any issues. The young players should be listening to somebody that has, you know, actually won a championship and made the game winning shot for said championship.
     
  43. Smokey Joe

    Smokey Joe Member SoSH Member

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    Depends on whether they define themselves as journalists or clickbait artists.
    If you never read a word that these guys write (or say) under normal circumstances, there’s no reason to start now.
     
  44. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    That was two years ago. And the young players are listening intently. They just aren't buying into Uncle Drew. They've had their own success, and frankly they play better when Kyrie sits out. Just look at the team's record this year with Kyrie vs without him.

    Another guess: the veterans on the team aren't backing Kyrie up to his satisfaction. Hayward isn't playing well enough to tell anyone anything, Morris is primarily concerned about his next contract, and Horford seems like the silent type. That leaves Smart, who may be the team's real leader, although he's awfully young for that role.
     
  45. Cellar-Door

    Cellar-Door Member SoSH Member

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    The Celtics play well at home without Kyrie, and abysmally on the road without him, particularly they were 1-7 on the road in the playoffs without Kyrie. Most non-terrible teams play better at home, so it isn't a big surprise that they play well at home without Kyrie.

    Anybody telling you that the Celtics are a better team without Kyrie is delusional.
     
  46. joe dokes

    joe dokes Member SoSH Member

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    Those young players also know that one of the big reasons they didn't get to the Finals last year was precisely because they didn't have a guy that could do what Kyrie can do (and what LeBron did) -- score no matter what the defense is doing or where the game is being played.

    The bolded is absolute garbage from the NYPost school of garbage. So at least it's the highest quality garbage. It undermines any substantive point you hope to make. Did Kyrie steal your lunch money? Did you go to Duke and felt let down because he was a (less than) one-and-done?
     
  47. Saints Rest

    Saints Rest Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    And what's his max potential contract if he were to be traded this week? IOW, does that team have the same $188 million/5 years option that the Celtics have or would they be limited to the $139 million/4 years option?
     
  48. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    Did you miss the multiple posts that showed how much better everyone played when Kyrie was on the floor vs. Rozier? Or did you willfully ignore that evidence when you made your hot take post?

    And there is actually no evidence that the young players are not listening to Kyrie. Last I checked, Brad Stevens was the coach of the team.
     
  49. JCizzle

    JCizzle Member SoSH Member

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    Hmm...



    "today kyrie is tell all fan no worry calm down ok"
     
  50. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    Oh boy...



    Kyrie Irving said at the end of the day he’s going to do what’s best for his career. “Ask me July 1,” he said about whether his mindset has changed.

     

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