Kyrie Irving traded to Celtics for IT, Crowder, Zizic, BKN 1st, 2020 2nd

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mcpickl

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He uses the stat that the Cavs went 4-23 when Lebron didn't play. But didn't someone earlier in this thread clarify that the Cavs also sat Kyrie in most of those games?
Kyrie also sat out 10 of those 27 games. Unsurprisingly, Cleveland went 0-10 in those.

Pretty lazy stat from a guy who's usually good.
 

HomeRunBaker

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This is a really good point.

Red did shit like this a lot, because he could. Same could be said of a guy down US1, albeit in a different sport.
They weren't handed or gifted these responsibilities though....they were most definitely earned. The other point that needs to be mentioned is that it isn't only Belichick and Ainge who have earned these rights and blown the doors off all expectations but it is the opportunity and open mindedness of both Robert Kraft and Grousback and Co. Neither Bill or Danny would be afforded these same opportunities under Dan Snyder, Dan Gilbert, Jerry Jones, Dolan, etc.

We are blessed to have Kraft and the Grousbeck Group owner our beloved franchises Patriots and Celtics......and it wasn't always this way.

Back on topic.....I'm glad to read so many people coming around on Kyrie. He truly is a "Flip The Switch" guy who shines when the lights are the brightest. All-Star Game MVP at age 21 (and could have been last year too), takes and makes Finals game winning shot, has singlehandedly won multiple playoff games, and has been the best player on the floor at times when that floor was shared by LeBron, Durant, Curry, Thompson, Green. Those criticizing his defense.....are you also criticizing the defense of Avery/Marcus after what Kyrie made them look like last spring?

Yes, he's going to be less consistent in the regular season than Isaiah was especially in those yawn games......that is a small price to pay when your team has the goals of reaching the NBA Finals like we now do.
 
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johnmd20

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Kyrie also sat out 10 of those 27 games. Unsurprisingly, Cleveland went 0-10 in those.

Pretty lazy stat from a guy who's usually good.
So they went 4-13 with Kyrie. Are you alleging 4-13 is a great run of basketball? It's not that lazy a stat.
 

DJnVa

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So they went 4-13 with Kyrie. Are you alleging 4-13 is a great run of basketball? It's not that lazy a stat.
I think the point is if you invest a lot of your cap in a dominant player like LBJ you, by necessity, are skimping elsewhere. When that player sits there isn't going to be a lot to pick up the slack.
 

ifmanis5

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Just watched the press conference. Really impressed by both guys' answers and attitude. I don't think chemistry is going to be a problem, it's going to be a huge asset.
 

Marbleheader

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Just because I was curious, last 2 seasons, losses where Kyrie played and LeBron didn't

Date PTS/REB/AST
2/25/17 34/9/7 vs CHI Love DNP
12/26/16 18/5/8 @DET 2nd of back to back after GSW Christmas game
11/16/16 24/2/7 @IND 2nd of back to back
4/6/16 @IND 26/2/6 2nd of back to back
3/29/16 vs HOU 31/2/8 6 pt loss
2/28/16 @WAS 28/1/6

17 games is too small of a sample size to derive anything meaningful.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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T Those criticizing his defense.....are you also criticizing the defense of Avery/Marcus after what Kyrie made them look like last spring?

Yes, he's going to be less consistent in the regular season than Isaiah was especially in those yawn games......that is a small price to pay when your team has the goals of reaching the NBA Finals like we now do.
Nobody denies that Irving is a transcendent offensive player. His handles, moves and finishes are, if not the best, amongst the top in the league.

I am not sure what point you are making comparing Irving's complete lack of interest in playing defense to the failure of other elite-level defenders in stopping him. In one instance, you have a guy with world class athleticism who has, to date, shown no interest in using it to play defense and in another you have guys who are trying their best to stop a player but simply cannot.
 

Cesar Crespo

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So they went 4-13 with Kyrie. Are you alleging 4-13 is a great run of basketball? It's not that lazy a stat.
How many of those 17 games were/was Kevin Love and/or another starter resting as well? What was LeBron's record in games played without Kyrie? Even that won't tell you the whole story if when LeBron took a rest, another starter did. While if Kyrie took a rest, everyone else played. It is a lazy stat. There are so many variables and the author didn't even bother listing the most obvious one...
 

E5 Yaz

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How many of those 17 games were/was Kevin Love and/or another starter resting as well? What was LeBron's record in games played without Kyrie? Even that won't tell you the whole story if when LeBron took a rest, another starter did. While if Kyrie took a rest, everyone else played. It is a lazy stat. There are so many variables and the author didn't even bother listing the most obvious one...
Agree completely. It's not only a lazy stat, it's a stupid stat.

And it means absolutely nothing going forward, because Kyrie's on an entirely different team, with different teammates, playing under a different coach.
 

djbayko

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Nobody denies that Irving is a transcendent offensive player. His handles, moves and finishes are, if not the best, amongst the top in the league.

I am not sure what point you are making comparing Irving's complete lack of interest in playing defense to the failure of other elite-level defenders in stopping him. In one instance, you have a guy with world class athleticism who has, to date, shown no interest in using it to play defense and in another you have guys who are trying their best to stop a player but simply cannot.
I've noticed a few posters here recently calling it "handles", plural. I assumed it was a typo at first, but it's become too commonplace for that. Where is this coming from? Every reference I came across throughout my childhood and teenage years was always "handle", singular. Did this basketball term transform in the last few years without me realizing it, or is it some sort of regional thing (which I'm doubtful of because most of the aforementioned references were on national TV broadcasts)?

Sorry for the sidetrack. It's just that this has been weighing on me for a while :)
 

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Me too. I suppose he could have a right handle and a left handle, but I can't hear handles without thinking of love handles.
 

lovegtm

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First off, I was not trying to say he will be judged solely on these trades. Even if these moves fail he will always get credit for the Garnett teams and the fast turnaround in the last few years. My point was these trades are big enough and controversial enough that they will have a significant impact on his eventual legacy. You may not want to see it, but Ainge bucked conventional wisdom with these trades to a degree that he never has before (at least not on moves of this significance). And I know you disagree. But the idea that trading the #5 pick in a draft that was seen as two-star deep for a hall of fame guard (i.e. the Ray Allen trade), or that blowing up a team that was clearly too old to contend was "miles more bold and risky" is just not true. If people want to love these trades that is their right, but you have to respect the fact that Ainge bucked conventional wisdom with both these moves and that puts him in a position to look particularly bad if they fail.
I know people are piling on a bit here, but I get your basic point: if there's an extremely strong consensus, it's usually there for a reason, and it's generally hubristic (a word?) to think you can beat that consensus consistently.

That said, I think the Fultz trade is the main one deserving of analysis. The debate with Kyrie was whether Ainge paid 70 cents on the dollar, 100 cents, or 120. I don't think that the consensus is super-off from what the Celtics paid--the main disagreement is how good Kyrie will be in the Celtics' system. If he turns into a top 10 player, it was a fair trade regardless of how the Brooklyn pick turns out. If he doesn't, it's an overpay. If the Nets are way better than projected, I think we give the Celtics a bit of credit for projecting the East, and chalk the trade up as a slight win, even if Kyrie is "only" a top 15/20 type guy.

So, the Fultz trade. There are two ways to look at it. The way kaz is looking at it is as a bet on the Celtics' internal player evaluation. Seen that way, and with Danny's meh track record of pre-draft talent evaluation (not great, not awful), it's not an awesome bet, I think kaz is correct to be skeptical.

However, I don't think the Celtics are betting on player evaluation so much as they're betting on the price of star trades. The typical price of a disgruntled star with 1-2 years left is a top 3-5 pick plus some assorted parts to make the deal work (win-now vets, salary matching, late picks, etc).

It doesn't seem to matter a ton if that top 5 pick is an already drafted player, a pick with a good chance at being top 5ish, or a pick that's already slotted into a certain spot. The only requirement if it's an already drafted player is that he still has to have some new-car shine (think Jayson Tatum post summer league, not Dragan Bender). Even Oladipo was a #2 overall, and I think that affected Indiana more than it should have.

So given that the Celtics think they have an attractive organization (Kyrie and Gordon certainly seem excited), it's key to have as many of those top 5ish looking assets as possible, since stars get disgruntled and want out all the time, or teams want to move on from them.

If that's the price, having assets that are TOO good becomes a problem, because teams want them. If the Celtics had drafted Fultz, they'd have Fultz, and Cleveland would probably have wanted him as the centerpiece of a trade for Kyrie. Instead, they had Tatum, BKN 2018, and LAL/SAC. All of those assets are worth less than the consensus #1, and by all reports, Cleveland was fine taking ANY of them in the deal, so the Celtics chose the one they valued least to send out.

tldr; the Fultz trade looked like a bet on player evaluation, but really it was a bet on the price for stars remaining a top 5 pick plus pieces. If that's the price, you want as many of those as possible, as long as you're reasonably confident Tatum won't look like a turd immediately.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I've noticed a few posters here recently calling it "handles", plural. I assumed it was a typo at first, but it's become too commonplace for that. Where is this coming from? Every reference I came across throughout my childhood and teenage years was always "handle", singular. Did this basketball term transform in the last few years without me realizing it, or is it some sort of regional thing (which I'm doubtful of because most of the aforementioned references were on national TV broadcasts)?

Sorry for the sidetrack. It's just that this has been weighing on me for a while :)
Its evolved from "handle" and it may be a regional thing but its a thing, indeed.
 

lovegtm

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Tatum's smooth footwork, post moves and shot also kinda remind me of Kawhi Leonard (though he lacks Kawhi's 7-3 wingspan and defensive upside).

Maybe halfway between Harry Barnes and Kawhi as a realistic goal?

Edit: which I guess is roughly the same as "longer Paul Pierce."
Gordon Hayward seems like a pretty good upside scenario/goal for Tatum. Similar athleticism (not super-quick, but can get up with a head of steam), decent ball-handling, good shooting stroke that can probably extend out to 3, eventual ability to run PnR if things go well. Their footwork and mid-range games are also very comparable.

Obviously there's a long way to go to hit that goal, but there's at least a path there, and he gets to watch the guy in practice every day.
 

Big John

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tldr; the Fultz trade looked like a bet on player evaluation, but really it was a bet on the price for stars remaining a top 5 pick plus pieces. If that's the price, you want as many of those as possible, as long as you're reasonably confident Tatum won't look like a turd immediately.
I'm way in the minority on this, but I don't think Fultz was the best guard in this draft, never mind the best player. I don't think he's as good as De'Aaron Fox, Lonzo Ball or Donovan Mitchell. And while the jury is out on Frank Ntilikina (who did not play in Summer league), Ntilikina was probably the second best 18 year-old in Europe, after Doncic. Very underrated.

IMHO fit was also a significant issue. Fultz is not a plus defender, and it would have been very difficult to put him on the floor with IT if a trade for a star did not materialize.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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For all those Coach K fans out there, here's what he had to say about Kyrie:

“Coach K actually called me as part of this process and said that he felt that Kyrie was almost just scratching the surface in Cleveland and that in a system up here with Brad Stevens, with letting Kyrie run the flow, that Kyrie was going to be even better than he was in Cleveland. If he is just as good as he was in Cleveland that would be amazing, so that was really heartening to hear that directly from Coach K.”
 

lovegtm

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Finally watched the press conference; I can't remember an athlete sounding as excited to play for a coach as Kyrie was to play for Brad.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Finally watched the press conference; I can't remember an athlete sounding as excited to play for a coach as Kyrie was to play for Brad.
Highlight of the press conference had to be Kyrie saying something about Brad's coaching and defense, and Brad interjecting that he coached Kyrie in a game where they gave up 197 points.
 

lovegtm

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Highlight of the press conference had to be Kyrie saying something about Brad's coaching and defense, and Brad interjecting that he coached Kyrie in a game where they gave up 197 points.
Yeah, it felt at that part like Brad was starting to feel awkward/embarrassed at the level of gushing coming his way. Sort of cute.
 

moly99

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Yes they are, and some compare him to Westbrook. But (as with Fultz) his team didn't win. I'm not sure where to rank him.
Meanwhile they should always give the Cy Young award to the guy with the most wins, and the MVP to the player with the most RBI's.
 

Big John

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Meanwhile they should always give the Cy Young award to the guy with the most wins, and the MVP to the player with the most RBI's.
Different sports, yes? But even so, when was the last MVP on a team with a losing record?
 

Cesar Crespo

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Is this serious? Mike Trout is the reigning MVP in the AL, his Angels were 74-88 last year.
to be fair, isn't the only other time it has happened in MLB is 1987 with Andre Dawson?

Cal Ripkin in 1991, Arod and Ernie Banks twice. So 6 times in history.
 

snowmanny

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In the NBA Moses Malone could have maybe should have won in 1981 -he won before(1979) and after(1982-83) and ended up in the Finals that year. Dr. J won a lifetime achievement MVP and Bird started his 2nd-2nd-2nd-1st-1st-1st run.
 

Brand Name

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Given this is MBPC, talking about the NBA specifically: first MVP Bob Petitt, for the 55-56 Hawks, who went 33-39, although they did make the playoffs. Also Kareem in 75-76, Lakers went 40-42, no playoffs, only time that's happened in the Association.

In the NHL, the only losing Hart winner that comes to mind is someone like goalie Al Rollins for the 53/54 Black Hawks. Dead last in the league at 12-51, with 31 points. This was less than half of fifth place New York. Completely beyond any logic. His stats didn't justify it either, not like he was a good player on a bad team either, to dissuade the lack of parallels to my favorite argument about Trout most of the past decade.

Different sports, yes? But even so, when was the last MVP on a team with a losing record?
Have you read my article? :)
 

HomeRunBaker

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I'm way in the minority on this, but I don't think Fultz was the best guard in this draft, never mind the best player. I don't think he's as good as De'Aaron Fox, Lonzo Ball or Donovan Mitchell. And while the jury is out on Frank Ntilikina (who did not play in Summer league), Ntilikina was probably the second best 18 year-old in Europe, after Doncic. Very underrated.

IMHO fit was also a significant issue. Fultz is not a plus defender, and it would have been very difficult to put him on the floor with IT if a trade for a star did not materialize.
How many 18-year olds are plus defenders? Fultz has the skillset to be just fine on that end.....much better than Isaiah and Kyrie for sure as both really struggle, like a Rondo, with negotiating PNR's.

Having said that, and I've been consistent with this message, I still have Fultz closer to being part of the "group" including Fox, Ball, Ntilikina, and Smith then I do having him in a tier above them.
 

kazuneko

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Anyone have a summary of what he is saying
Something like :
"It's all been such a unique opportunity to experience the best of things that is yet to come, in order to maximize my potential and utilize my skill set and understand the frequencies of what's happening here, and that's just from an observer's standpoint trying to rationalize this exciting time..."
Good non-verbal social skills, but he basically sounds like a human InspiroBot (i.e what you'd expect if you took a library of self-help books and used it to program an English phrase generator)...
 

splendid splinter

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Just because I was curious, last 2 seasons, losses where Kyrie played and LeBron didn't

Date PTS/REB/AST
2/25/17 34/9/7 vs CHI Love DNP
12/26/16 18/5/8 @DET 2nd of back to back after GSW Christmas game
11/16/16 24/2/7 @IND 2nd of back to back
4/6/16 @IND 26/2/6 2nd of back to back
3/29/16 vs HOU 31/2/8 6 pt loss
2/28/16 @WAS 28/1/6

17 games is too small of a sample size to derive anything meaningful.
Also, in two of those games Love played 18 min and 23 min, so Kyrie was effectively alone out there for one, and largely alone for another. And that's not exactly a slate of cupcakes.
 

allstonite

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Something like :
"It's all been such a unique opportunity to experience the best of things that is yet to come, in order to maximize my potential and utilize my skill set and understand the frequencies of what's happening here, and that's just from an observer's standpoint trying to rationalize this exciting time..."
Good non-verbal social skills, but he basically sounds like a human InspiroBot (i.e what you'd expect if you took a library of self-help books and used it to program an English phrase generator)...
Really? I get you hate the trade but this is ridiculous. Gordon Hayward was the robot with a touch of awkwardness. Kyrie had thoughtful, complete answers and was much better than 90% of athletes I've heard talk. He didn't say anything ground breaking because it was an introductory press conference but he came across very well.

Even the beginning when he wanted to mention victims of Harvey and threw in Charlottesville he touched on how this trade is huge but it's within the basketball world and it's all just a game and there's much more serious issues going on. It could have come across as an obligation or something he felt he had to say but I thought it was much better than that.
 

lovegtm

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Really? I get you hate the trade but this is ridiculous. Gordon Hayward was the robot with a touch of awkwardness. Kyrie had thoughtful, complete answers and was much better than 90% of athletes I've heard talk. He didn't say anything ground breaking because it was an introductory press conference but he came across very well.
Agree that Kyrie was a LOT better-spoken than Gordon (who seems very much a typical athlete in that sense), but kaz is also right that Kyrie seemed like he was trying a bit hard to say the right things, and it came out weirdly robotic and pre-packaged. It sounded even weirder because he's much better at packaging that pablum than most athletes, but didn't quite hit it, so he entered uncanny verbal valley territory.

Kyrie has always struck me in interviews (even the flat-earth one!) as a fairly smart guy whose intellectual development has been a bit stifled by the necessity of focusing on basketball 24/7. Not that that's a bad thing--he's got plenty of time to explore that side after basketball, and he clearly enjoys the game, the cash and the hos, so good on him.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Agree that Kyrie was a LOT better-spoken than Gordon (who seems very much a typical athlete in that sense), but kaz is also right that Kyrie seemed like he was trying a bit hard to say the right things, and it came out weirdly robotic and pre-packaged. It sounded even weirder because he's much better at packaging that pablum than most athletes, but didn't quite hit it, so he entered uncanny verbal valley territory.
Players are coached by their agents and by the team on what to say and nowadays are typically careful and vanilla in these settings. I place about zero relevance to these conferences as it's nothing more than a pre-packaged photo op by the team to get a headline for a day. Yawn.

Kyrie has always struck me in interviews (even the flat-earth one!) as a fairly smart guy whose intellectual development has been a bit stifled by the necessity of focusing on basketball 24/7. Not that that's a bad thing--he's got plenty of time to explore that side after basketball, and he clearly enjoys the game, the cash and the hos, so good on him.
One of the reasons we've heard that Kyrie wanted out of Cleveland and LeBron's shadow was that he wanted to be more involved with social issues however the organization would not support him instead only allowing LeBron to be the face of the franchise. You can see how a diva (not necessarily in a bad way) like Kyrie, who thrives on the spotlight as his ASG and post-season performances show, would feel slighted and uncomfortable not being the #1 guy.

I think a lot of people fail to realize that even though an NBA player has his primary responsibility there is a TON of downtime not associated with basketball even during the season. Kyrie has done some rap tracks and really wants to be more involved in social issues than the Cavs would allow him to do in preferring him to act as "Bron's little brother." I don't expect Kyrie to pull a Kaepernick but he will be the guy leading the Celtics when social issues arise simply because that is who he is.
 

pjheff

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Danny took some huge risks this offseason. It would have been really easy to just have kept the number 1 pick and picked Fultz. Not only would it be choosing the consensus choice it would have prevented his second controversial move: the Irving trade. With Fultz in the wings, the Cs would have been in a position to let IT go after the season with a star-potential player ready take over. If Ainge had gone that direction that pick and the Hayward signing would have had writers around the league grading his offseason an "A+", inoculating him against any second guessing down the road if Fultz ended up a disappointment. Instead he's bet big on two players, Tatum and Irving, that he apparently rates a lot higher than most basketball people. He's now in a position where if either Fultz or Bell ends up becoming a superstar and Tatum doesn't and/or if Irving ends up proving to be nothing more than the hero-balling defensive liability many fear he is, Ainge looks truly horrible and his legacy takes a huge hit. It's a remarkable turn considering how easy it would have been for him to "win" the offseason by going with the seemingly slam dunk move of picking Fultz.
Certainly, the safe play would have been to bring back last year's 53 win ECF team with the addition of the consensus #1 pick in the draft and the consensus #1 player in free agency. But I don't think Ainge has ever stated as his goal a desire to earn A+ grades from writers or "win" the offseason.
 

Big John

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How many 18-year olds are plus defenders? Fultz has the skillset to be just fine on that end.....much better than Isaiah and Kyrie for sure as both really struggle, like a Rondo, with negotiating PNR's..
Ntilikina (turned 19 on July 28) has a 7-0 wingspan and huge hands like Rondo. That's one candidate. Mitchell is older (turns 21 this week), but he also has a 7-0 wingspan and averaged 4 steals a game in Summer league.
 

In my lifetime

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Certainly, the safe play would have been to bring back last year's 53 win ECF team with the addition of the consensus #1 pick in the draft and the consensus #1 player in free agency. But I don't think Ainge has ever stated as his goal a desire to earn A+ grades from writers or "win" the offseason.
I also don't think Ainge was fooled by making it to the Eastern Conference finals. The Celtics easily could have been eliminated early. So it was a bit of a mirage, which was quickly extinguished by the much better Cavaliers.

Staying pat and drafting Fultz, the Celtics had a much greater chance of a 1st/2nd round exit than challenging the Cavs.

As the team stands now, they have ~45% chance to beat the Cavs. Pre-trade I think those odds were closer to 25%. That is a substantial upgrade when the player received in the trade is 25. So both a short term and as long as they resign Kyrie, a long term boost.
 

nighthob

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Certainly, the safe play would have been to bring back last year's 53 win ECF team with the addition of the consensus #1 pick in the draft and the consensus #1 player in free agency. But I don't think Ainge has ever stated as his goal a desire to earn A+ grades from writers or "win" the offseason.
Bringing back last year's team wasn't really an option if they wanted Hayward. Clearing the cap space always meant renouncing all the roleplayers that people loved and replacing them with a mix of rookies and minimally priced free agents.

And after all that due to the abbreviated playoffs they still had to trade Bradley to create the cap space. The "safe" move would have been to add Fultz and then hope that the 2018 Brooklyn pick produced that one top five guy you could build a contender around. Except that that wasn't that safe a bet.
 

kazuneko

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Really? I get you hate the trade but this is ridiculous. Gordon Hayward was the robot with a touch of awkwardness. Kyrie had thoughtful, complete answers and was much better than 90% of athletes I've heard talk. He didn't say anything ground breaking because it was an introductory press conference but he came across very well.
Even the beginning when he wanted to mention victims of Harvey and threw in Charlottesville he touched on how this trade is huge but it's within the basketball world and it's all just a game and there's much more serious issues going on. It could have come across as an obligation or something he felt he had to say but I thought it was much better than that.
I'm not trying to say Kyrie's responses were boring. Clearly Hayward was the more boring one. My point was that he spoke in a self-help gobbledygook that was often completely unintelligible. Yes he's still quite young and the bar for athletes is pretty low, and it's probably also true that he was being intentionally obscure to avoid some of the more difficult questions, but when Green Monster asked for a summary of what he said, my initial reaction was "who the fuck knows"..
 
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sezwho

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I'm actually quite relieved Kyrie came off well aside from some picking of nits.

I don't pay too much attention to the public personas of the athletes, but Boston can be more brutal than any city in America not named Philadelphia; before anyone asks I've lived in Boston, Philly and NYC which are really the only contestants. If his flat earth stuff was harbinger of things to come then he was destined for a large slathering of BMs (Boston media slander) in a sport where you are both much more visible and appear nightly.
 

Big John

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Hypothetical: If the cap had stayed at $101M and the C's had been able to pay Hayward the max without trading Bradley, then what would the Celtics roster look like now?
 
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