Because the Blazers aren’t tanking and for trading an all star scoring guard on a long term deal aren’t taking pennies on the dollar. If Philly wanted McCollum for pennies on the dollar they’re going to have to eat the Turner deal.
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Well yes. Any bad salaries are going to Philly in a hypothetical deal for McCollum, not to Portland.
BJ, what are you smoking? I've been warned that the edibles are much more powerful. Put down the gummies.
1. Fultz had a dreadful 1st year BUT Markelle has so much more upside than McConnell its not even worth discussing. Fultz trade value, right now, is many multiples of TJ McConnell.
2. Covington had a bad Celtics series but is a very good player with a good attitude on a reasonable deal. Some could even argue that Covington ($11M) has more trade value than CJ($26M/yr) straight up.
3. McCollum and Kawhi are not similar in trade value. When healthy Kawhi is a top 5 player. On his best day, CJ McCollum is maybe a top 30 player? but probably more in the top 50 range.
No need for the blazers to take Covington is so hilarious.
He had a horrible series and suddenly he's shit. No dude he's one of the best wing defenders in the league, he was asked to do some things beyond him and got into a deep funk. He has an excellent deal he needs to get more consistent (rather than hot and cold for an average of solid) on his shot, but his defense has been elite
He is first or second all NBA defense on many ballots that have been announced.
If you insist on taking a five game sample for your views why even bother?
I didn't propose the McCollum deal, but who knows what Kawhi is worth at this point? Is he injured? Will he sign an extension with the team that trades for him?
I don't know what Fultz is worth either, and I don't see you you can say that his trade value is "many multiples" of McConnell, when McConnell is playing very well and makes a small fraction of what Fultz is making to ride the bench.
As for Covington, he's a decent player who has carved out a nice career for himself after going undrafted, but I view his $62M extension as an overpay. I don't see a team like Portland being interesting in taking him back in a deal when they already have Aminu and Harkless.
I don't know what Fultz is worth either, and I don't see you you can say that his trade value is "many multiples" of McConnell, when McConnell is playing very well and makes a small fraction of what Fultz is making to ride the bench.
As for Covington, he's a decent player who has carved out a nice career for himself after going undrafted, but I view his $62M extension as an overpay. I don't see a team like Portland being interesting in taking him back in a deal when they already have Aminu and Harkless.
The right number to use for Covington going forward is $50 million. He's on a 4-year, $50 million contract now. I doubt any good GM in the league views that as an overpay for one of the better 3&D wings in the league. Whether Portland, specifically, would be interested in acquiring him because of roster fit is an entirely different question that I don't have a good enough sense of their roster needs to opine upon.
This part is correct, there’s untapped talent in Fultz even if he seems to have mentally imploded during his rookie year. You’d be gambling on him getting past the yips. McConnell is nice, but backup PGs are a dime a dozen.
Here you go off the rails. McCollum’s weakness is that he can’t guard larger players and as such he’s a terrible pairing with the 6’2” Lillard. In Philly he’d be matching up at the one spot where his defensive shortcomings would be minimized.
Covington is not more valuable than McCollum. He’s a really good 3&D player, no more and no less. But McCollum is a legit primary scorer, and those guys don’t grow on trees. I think he’s underrated in the same way Kyrie was before he came to Boston.
Also possible that a 3rd team could be worked in. I don’t see McCollum/Lillard as a sustainable pairing and think that Saric would fit in nicely in Portland since they don’t currently have much at PF. McCollum would be a very nice fit playing off Simmons. It’s quite possible that Blazers have no interest in trading CJ but I think Sixers have the pieces to get it done if they did. They are likely going to have to get creative in finding that 3rd star player so I’m sure Colangelo will be burning the phone lines this summer
Yeah, I can see Fultz maturing into a high quality NBA guard in SA under Pop. Throw in Saric plus a top 10 Lakers pick and that just might be enough to get Kawhi.
Kawhi/Simmons/Embiid isn't the lowest risk group b/c of injuries and attitude questions, but would probably be the closest to GSW in terms of talent at the top of the lineup.
The basic math was too simple here. Sixers lose Amir and JJ, but Embiid has a 19M+ dollar raise next season.
Salary cap is expected to be around 101M next year.
Embiid/Kawhi/Simmons/Covington would be a total of 65M. (unless Kawhi waived his trade kicker it'd be 62M) Lebrons max would be 35.2M. That already doesn't fit even if you filled the roster with minimum salary guys. Even if you traded Covington off and took back no salary, Embiid/Kawhi/Simmons/Lebron would be 90M, again assuming Kawhi and Lebron take their max money. You can't fit all four even with all cheap salaries surrounding them.
Only possible way it could work, barring Lebron taking a discount, is Cleveland being willing to sign and trade Lebron to Philly.
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They may have to unload Covington and go with a top-heavy roster ($87-90M for the four of them). As you know it's not a hard cap (half the league is over $115M/team). Philly could navigate it with all their picks, youngsters, vet MLE, euro stash, etc
Some other top-heavy rosters in 2018-19:
Golden State: Steph + Durant + Klay + Draymond = $94M.
OKC: Westbrook + Melo + Adams= $87M
Wizards: Porter + Wall + Beal + Mahimi= $87M
Raptors: DeRozen + Lowry +Ibaka + Valanciuunis= $97M
Houston will be in this situation with re-signing Chris Paul or adding Lebron
etc, etc etc
even the Celtics: Hayward+Horford+Irving +Tatum= $86.5M
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Right, but as you know, to sign a max free agent from another team you have to get under the cap to do it.
Over the soft cap comes from trades and signing your own players.
Embiid/Kawhi/Simmons/Lebron can't be realistically be done with Lebron signing there as a free agent. Cleveland would have to trade him there.
Forget Kawhi for a second, maybe we are talking past each other.
Are you saying the Sixers don't have room to offer a max contract this offseason? Embiid's contract was described by Woj as the most complex in NBA history, maybe there is confusion (on my part) on what the 76ers can do this offseason.
If the Sixers are close enough against the CAP, I suspect they would do what the Celtics did after announcing the Hayward signing (moving Avery for MaMo/a $3.5M savings).
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Sixers have about $70 million in committed salaries, if they renounce the rights to Redick, Amir, Marco, and Ersan they’ll have about $30 million in space, which while enough for some max contracts it’s not enough for Lebron (about $5 million short). They could make a trade, but they’d need to attach draft capital to get rid of their worse contract of Bayless at $8.5 million.
As per Spotrac, the Sixers have 9 players under contract in 2018-19, plus club options on Holmes and McConnell. Assuming they keep McConnell and renounce Holmes, that would total $68.5M. The 76'ers will potentially have 2 first round picks to sign. Let's say they stash their 26th pick; signing the higher pick would eat up about $7.5M in cap space. With 12 signed players, the Sixers could renounce their remaining exceptions and have $76M in committed salaries, or about $34M in cap space. There could be some additional charges that bring the space down to $30M.
Thanks. Do you agree with this mcpickl?
So Philly has several different options to create space for a max free agent (ie Lebron, Paul George) without having to do a sign/trade with Cleveland.
1. Covington deal for a cheaper player ala Avery/MaMo
2. Bayless + future pick/youngster to another team
3. Philly could also trade Fultz ($8.3M) for a 2018 or 2019 draft pick to get under. Not sure exactly what Markelle's trade value would be for a 2018 or 19 pick, top 10? Markelle would come with one less year of control and his contract cost would be higher than the draft pick. So it's not a straight talent vs talent question. (Doubt Colangelo has the guts to do this since the Danny fleecing would be highlighted even more then it has already)
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Lexrageorge makes a good point about the draft picks that I omitted, I think it actually takes them down to around $25 million in space depending on slot.
I think they would need to make the Covington and Bayles’s moves and I don’t think Covington is going to have a ton of value, his contract isn’t onerous in per year, but it’s just starting, and he’s a really streaky shooter even in a league that loves 3 and D. I also don’t think Markelle has top 10 value (if a 2018 pick you only save ~ $3 million), Fultz I think can be good, but he needs to show he’s over whatever last year was before he has value again.
Philly could make moves for a max guy, I don’t think it’ll be easy and it’ll kill their depth. A trade for Kawhi, might be their best option, but it’s risky and going to be tough to do if keeping Simmons and Embiid, the Spurs could probably do better than Saric, Fultz and a top 10 pick, what if someone in the top 3 makes a Kawhi offer?
Trading Fultz for a 2018 draft pick doesn't really help them capwise unless they stash the player overseas. Otherwise, they would have to account for the pick, and the savings of that pick versus Fultz is probably at best $1.5M to $2M.
The Celtics could not trade Marcus Morris for Covington, as they are already over the cap, and the Celtics don't really have any other salaries to ship out in a multi-way trade unless Smart is involved in a sign-and-trade. Avery Bradley is a UFA; tend to doubt he would sign anywhere for less than Covington.
Bayless is tradeable, as he is an expiring as well.
This is what is going to happen. All Danny’s incredible work and the window still gets pushed back to 2023 or so. The NBA is ridiculous, the max contracts make it far too easy to create superteams.
Maybe not, but adding LBJ and George to Philly would royally suck.
How different is PHI drafting three top round picks, trading one of them for a max player, and signing another top free agent...
from...
BOS drafting two top guys, signing two top free agents, and trading a top draft pick for another soon to be max player.
Because Boston’s two max FA are actually worth the amount being paid. LeBron is worth 50 million. The max fucks up the entire league. I’m not blaming Philly, btw, it would just really suck.
Are you expecting the rest of the league to sit back and accept that the Celtics and Warriors are going to play for the next three titles?
You're always going to have to beat good teams to win titles. If LeBron wants to spend his golden years in Philly, bring it on .
You're always going to have to beat good teams to win titles. If LeBron wants to spend his golden years in Philly, bring it on .
From the RealGM wiretap:
https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/249856/76ers-Have-Interest-In-Trading-For-Kawhi-Leonard
https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/249856/76ers-Have-Interest-In-Trading-For-Kawhi-Leonard
No, I'm saying if they trade for Kawhi or another expensive star they don't have room to sign another max free agent on top of that.
They can get to max cap space to sign Lebron(or another max free agent) by peeling off players.
I was pushing back against your assertion that they had room to add a max free agent after trading for Kawhi(or any other expensive star)
Because LeBron tells them to or else he leaves and they get nothing. They’d need another better offer from a contender LeBron would consider. Boston could probably do it, actually, but they’d need to give up an awful lot (Kyrie and Brown or something).
They do if they get one via a trade or sign and trade.
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Because if the option is nothing or assets that you can use in a rebuild you always opt for the latter.
Not to pile on, but Cleveland already did do this. In 2010, The Decision was executed as a sign-and-trade with Miami. That was in much more acrimonious circumstances.
If LeBron has made up his mind to peace out, and Philly is actually offering Fultz, Covington, and an expiring, Cleveland does that as fast as they can before Colangelo can change his mind. It would give Philly a monster team, but Cleveland will be rebuilding for the next 4+ years anyway once LeBron leaves.
How much more is there to say in this thread? It's likely San Antonio would take either Brown or Tatum straight-up for Kawhi right now, given the injury/contract situation. There's also 0% chance Danny would deal either of them, given their progressions to this point and the Celtics' salary situation.
Can I be the first to say Simmons and LeBron paired doesn’t scare me in the slightest? Simmons is absolutely useless without the ball in his hands.
He’s not going to Philly. Houston, Cleveland or LA
He’s not going to Philly. Houston, Cleveland or LA
I’m sure the Sixers could turn Simmons into something far more useful in a LeBron-to-Philly scenario.
You guys are all missing the point.
The Lebron to Miami sign and trade was:
All in all, 2 seconds, 2 firsts, an almost valueless pick swap, and a trade exception. In other words, not a huge haul, but all assets a rebuilding team would want. And, most importantly. no liabilities going back to Cleveland.
What is being proposed here (Fultz, Bayless, Covington) is for Cleveland to deal LBJ for, quite possibly, less than zero. I think the potential that Fultz pans out is not enough value to justify taking on a bunch of salary that is worthless to a rebuilding team. (Covington has value as a player but he's not someone you pay a lot of money to in order to try and rebuild around). If I'm Cleveland I think I'd rather Lebron walk away unless Philly adds some actual value to the offer.
If my choice is nothing, or Fultz + Covington + salary, I take the latter without a second thought. I doubt that PHI would actually offer that though. For if Lebron has made it clear he wants to go to PHI, CLE has no leverage.
Highly doubt either player would agree to go to their new location so I’d say, nope.
There is plenty of question about that. He’s very young, supremely talented, and still relatively cheap and cost-controlled. He probably has similar value to, say, Terry Rozier (one year left on deal), which I’d say is a mid first round pick. High bust potential, but still superstar potential as well. A rebuilding team might well prefer the cheaper risk with two extra years of control.
I’m not really following. You said two things that are the opposite of one another:
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I wouldn't call Fultz "supremely talented." He didn't win in college. In fact he lost to Yale. Could we go with a simple "talented?"
And as for "cost controlled" a team trading for him has already lost a year of control in which Fultz gained virtually no actual game experience. Three years from now, his qualifying offer is $15.8M. Suppose he turns out to be a good player, but not a great player? Would a team even want to keep Fultz in 2021-22 at that price?
In my view Fultz has very little trade value until he puts together a string of at least 15-20 games in which he plays substantial minutes, shoots a decent percentage and shows that he can defend at the NBA level.
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The idea wouldn’t be to “build around Covington”. The idea would be to use him as a clubhouse stabilizer until a contending team starts looking around for 3&D wing depth. It’s not like he’s making Evan Turner money, going forward he has 4/47 remaining, which is reasonable given the new cap,
Doesn’t the sign and trade facilitate another superstar move though? Gilbert seems like a bitter man, so why would he help out Philly who is in the East? Sign and trade seems definite to the Lakers.
Bayless is only a one year deal, i i not know it's that bad to move with a mid first they have
They make the free agent signing first and then the trade.
I am not sure what your issue is with that. They would have to do it that order.
So where is he going then if not any of the fits?
And you also missed the interview where LeBron syas he wants to play more off ball from here in his career.
This also ignores Simmons was more effective in the Celtics series off ball, and that he can actually (gasp) improve from his rookie season
You would rather walk away than get a one year removed first overall pick who was hurt? And one of the best 3&d contracts around. Ok...
This is dumb. You think you'd have to pay to get rid of Fultz?????