Dismiss Notice
Guest, I have a big favor to ask you. We've been working very hard to establish ourselves on social media. If you like/follow our pages it would be a HUGE help to us. SoSH on Facebook and Inside the Pylon Thanks! Nip

Jayson Tatum Needs His Own Thread

Discussion in 'Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Celtics Forum' started by luqin, May 27, 2018.

  1. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    6,828
    I sort of hope that he was talking about Jonathan Bender, who showed real flashes of stardom his second and third years in the NBA. Before his knees turned to jelly and all the promise remained unfulfilled. But even in those years Bender's flashes amounted to (at best) a great game every week, sandwiched around a lot of frustratingly nothing games.
     
  2. Ed Hillel

    Ed Hillel Wants to be startin somethin SoSH Member

    Messages:
    20,649
    Thanks for the data, I am not really up to speed on advanced stats for the NBA. I’m just going based on the highly imperfect eye test and the dude reminds me so much of Durant.
     
  3. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

    Messages:
    31,056
  4. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

    Messages:
    31,056
    Longer highlights:

     
  5. OurF'ingCity

    OurF'ingCity Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    2,550
    That subtle look he gave Embiid after Tatum hit his clutch jumper late in the 4th, as if to say "did you want to say something to me?" is sublime.
     
  6. djbayko

    djbayko Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    7,583
    Didn't they work out together this summer? I'm not taking anything away from the look...it was indeed awesome. But I think it came from a place where two people have been engaged in a lot of friendly competition lately.
     
  7. Spelunker

    Spelunker Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    5,086
    Yeah, that's how I took it. There was basically a wink there. Those guys like each other.
     
  8. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,105
    You're not answering the question.

    If you want to declare him the best player on the team, after one half into his second season with three other All Stars on the roster, knock yourself out. I'm not there yet.

    If you want to talk about who to build around, that's an entirely different conversation, for multiple reasons.

    He looked great. I'm not debating that. I think it's a tad early to declare him the best player on the team. YMMV.
     
  9. Reverend

    Reverend for king and country Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    36,885
    As a confirmed bandwagon member and sometime driver of said bandwagon as such--cheers @DrewDawg !--I think it might be neat for you guys to stop and consider what things looked like when I showed up.

    Like, here's my snap shot:
    • Draft insanity--Tatum.
    • Heart and soul of team traded.
    • Confusing rookie break-out sensation questioning where heart and soul will be.
    • Kyrie brought in and says Earth is flat.
    • Weird genius coach that sounded familiar--and then I realized it was the Butler Guy from when I lived in Indiana and much fist air punching ensued.
    • Too good to be true weirdo former Butler guy disintegrates 30 seconds before I manage to get the game on tv.
    • They have a papa bear that is married to a Miss Universe and is basically Just Awesome.
    • Marcus Smart revealed to have been kicked out of the X-Men.
    • Other stuff
    What promptly happened was it became clear that Jalen Brown was actually the chosen heir to heart and soul and made a sick fucking second year leap that everyone here assured me was unforeseen and generally speaking unheard of.

    It was fucking awesome, and it was a great time for me to sign up.

    It really seems to me like Ainge-Stevens brain trust has strong ideas about developing players... and I mean really fucking developing players.

    So: tl;dr

    After signing up for the Jaylen Brown Sophomore Expereyance, I am pretty fucking fired up for the Jayson Tatum Sophomore Expereyance.
     
  10. Reverend

    Reverend for king and country Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    36,885
    I think you guys are technically just disagreeing on how to use an unspoken time component.
     
  11. chilidawg

    chilidawg Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,059
    I wouldn't say that KI has looked good defensively with the Celtics.
     
  12. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    8,889
    Prior to arriving, people were saying he was as bad as IT4.
     
  13. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

    Messages:
    5,095
    That came from people that didn't like the trade.

    Kyrie was considered really bad defensively BUT IT4 has been the worst defensive player in the NBA for 2 seasons running. KI also exhibited much better defense for the Cavs in the playoffs. It was pretty well understood that Kyrie didn't try hard on the defensive end during the regular season, hence the low defensive ranking.
     
  14. luckiestman

    luckiestman Son of the Harpy SoSH Member

    Messages:
    9,879

    *To show the dodgers how it’s done.*

    Is Tatum the best player on the Celtics?

    917B1131-34EE-406A-9554-5EE0A10812F5.jpeg

    and


    FBA62B92-45B9-482A-84E4-F2608ED95281.jpeg


    *RIP Patrice & BIG
     
  15. chilidawg

    chilidawg Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,059
    FWIW, his DRPM was -1.3 last year, -2.3 the year before. So I guess you could say that's a little better.
     
  16. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    6,793
    Kyrie's defense was probably adequate first half of last season, but then his knee really started to impact him.
     
  17. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    15,305
    I think HRB's relationship to Dragan Bender is akin to a person's relationship with an ex-GF who broke his heart where he's denying he loves her and putting her down all the time but really really pines for her deep down. :redwine:

    But interesting you note the two. If you compare their 19 year old seasons, the two have same VORP (-0.3) but JB is marginally better by WS (-0.2 on -0.3 OWS + 0.1 DWS to -0.3 for DB on -0.7 OWS + 0.3 DWS).

    If you compare age 20 seasons, DB had better VORP (-0.7 to -0.9) while they had same WS (-0.3). DB = -1.4 OWS + 1.1 DWS; JB = -1.0 OWS + 0.7 DWS.

    So interesting comparison IMO.
     
  18. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    6,828
    I vaguely remember that in his third year he played pretty well down the stretch, and there was a lot of talk that he'd finally turned the corner and was on his way to stardom (I had a friend that was an über Pacers fan, so I had to hear about it all the time). And I think that was the stretch where one game in four he looked like the beta version of the Greek Freak, but the other three games he was frustratingly mediocre. But in his fourth year the knee injuries started.
     
  19. amarshal2

    amarshal2 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,532
    You can see Tatum has been pushing himself to try and reach another level as an NBA scorer. He might struggle a bit in the meantime but you can see the value down the line. I just hope he pushes himself to be a creator for others as much as he pushes to become an individual scorer.
     
  20. bsj

    bsj Renegade Crazed Genius SoSH Member

    Messages:
    16,888
    Tatum has gotten exponentially better.
     
  21. lostjumper

    lostjumper Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,143
    He is going to be a special player. He had a chance to be the best player the C's have had since Bird.
     
  22. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    26,071
  23. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    26,071
    Even if Fultz figures it out and is the next Lillard or whatever his ceiling is, Ainge deserves all the praise for not only selecting Tatum over him but for adding the sweetener. And even if the pick doesn't amount to much, Ainge's et al's evaluation of this (Fultz, Ball, Tatum) draft is awe inspiring. However I wonder if even the C's braintrust knew how good Tatum might be. I bet they didn't think his trajectory would be this promising.
     
  24. Devizier

    Devizier Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    9,191
    Starting to physically resemble him.

    For anyone confused, this is a compliment.
     
  25. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    19,354
    He hurt them against Toronto late by ignoring open teammates as he drove 1-on-3 and got called for an offensive foul. I see that as more of a case of the Celtics offense being generally out of sync and confused than being about Tatum per se. His playmaking was much improved down the stretch last season.
     
  26. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

    Messages:
    5,095
    Here's a nice little Braintrust recap before the Tatum + pick for Markelle fleecing. (and the MaMo for Bradley salary move)

    https://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/06/celtics-trade-76ers-danny-ainge-markelle-fultz-nba-draft-picks
     
  27. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    19,354
    Question. Does Tatum look noticably stronger this year? To me he does, though I can't say for certain how much of that is just my imagination.
     
  28. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

    Messages:
    5,095
  29. Light-Tower-Power

    Light-Tower-Power Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    7,308
    I hope he starts taking it to the hoop a little more now that he's stronger and should be able to finish though contact better. SSS but he has thrown up a glut of step-back 18-20 footers so far this season as we've all pointed out in the gamethreads. I'm interested to see how his game evolves this season because I don't believe that Brad loves how many midrange jumpshots he's throwing up.
     
  30. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    29,545
    Agreed. Hopefully we’ll see more attacking the rim. Those 18-20 footers will always be there.
     
  31. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

    Messages:
    31,056
    He's setting everyone up.
     
  32. IdiotKicker

    IdiotKicker Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,281
    On this, I also think we're going to see a bit more of this as Tatum tries to find that line between being beneficially selfish and harmfully selfish. I don't think it's a bad thing, so long as he learns where that line is. But he's going to cross it more than a few times, and I'm fine with it, because I want a more aggressive and dominant Tatum, and these are the growing pains he has to go through to get there.
     
  33. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

    Messages:
    16,662
    While Tatum appears bigger that doesn't mean he understands how to utilize additional strength on the floor. His game is the same so I wouldn't expect or necessarily want him begin to barrel to the rim in situations where he normally wouldn't. Where it will likely help Tatum is in finishing WHEN those opportunities arise rather than actively looking for them as this really isn't in his DNA.

    Another observation is that while Tatum may have improved HIS strength he still has a ways to go before reaching his apex. Having said that I hope you guys are cautious in how his game develops in that he's always going to be a 3-point/pullup shooter.....that is just what his game is. I have always comped his body/strength (and overall game to a degree) to that of Paul George who didn't take big leaps in this area until his 3rd and 4th year at ages 22 and 23. George began increasing his FTA up to 3.8 then 5.3/g during that climb and I'd expect the same gradual increase from Tatum but he's never going to be a Harden or a DeRozan in using his body control/strength to reach double figure attempts on average.

    The future is bright for Tatum but wishing too much too soon on him isn't going to allow us to best appreciate what we are going to have in a couple of years. Enjoy the ride!
     
  34. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

    Messages:
    31,056
    Some numbers after 3 games:

    --his eFG% is actually down slightly, because his 3PT% is down, but he's taking 4 more 2PT shots/game, and 5.5 more shots/game overall

    --nearly 17% of his shots are from 10 to 16 feet, last year it was under 10%. From 16 feet out to the 3PT line, it's 23%, last year was 19%. So from 10 feet out to the 3PT line--40% of his shots versus 28% last year.

    --he's shooting about the same number %-wise of 3PT shots this season--his shot increase is all long 2s. In close, he's down from 32% to 22% of shots.

    --average distance of shot is 14.9 feet, up from 12.7

    --Usage up to 26%
     
  35. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    29,545
    I don't expect Harden level FTAs from Tatum and am happy with his development. Would like to see him eventually get to the 6-7 range because he's such a good FT shooter and I think he has a very good ability to draw contact (some of which isn't being called yet). Overall, I'm quite pleased with Tatum's development. He's on his way to being a star, which Knicks fans in the office were lamenting this morning after they stopped whining about the Red Sox and Patriots being "lucky".
     
  36. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

    Messages:
    1,302
    Totally disagree. Tatum and George are very different players and Tatum already plays more at the rim and draws more contact. Tatum as a 19-year-old rookie took 365 FGA at the rim, more than Paul has had in any season of his career. (PG had just 285 and 189 in the last two years.) JT averaged over 5 FTA game in the playoffs, and I’d put it at over 50% he ends up over that mark this year, and would not be surprised if he settles around 8 or 9 when he actually moves even close to his peak. I also disagree with the claim that he is always going to be a 3-point/pull-up shooter. I expect he will become a very good postup player down the road.
     
  37. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    2,239
    In addition to the usual SSS caveats, they just haven't gotten into a flow yet. Much in the way that Morris vomits long 2s with the second unit, it is not at all a surprise that Tatum is doing it now. There is a vacuum, and he's filling it. Pretty small chance that the breakdown looks like this for long. They are bound to sort out a regular offense.
     
  38. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    2,556
    I guess he'll probably fix it, but it's really annoying that he's still passing up open 3s, driving, and then stepping back for 20-footers.

    Given all the stuff he's works so hard on, it's weird that he didn't pick the obvious low-hanging fruit. I mean, can anyone recall his 3-point shot ever getting blocked?
     
  39. Reverend

    Reverend for king and country Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    36,885
    This is largely what I (hope I) see as well: The team actually has to adjust not only to Hay-now but to a new and better Tatum. It's a new offense.

    Growing pains? It does look disjointed a lot of the time. But on the other hand, each individual has shown at times that he can do what he's supposed to do. Drab will figure it out.
     
  40. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

    Messages:
    1,302
    The 0 for 5 from 3-point land last night was the worst deep shooting performance of his young career. He also opened with a 1 for 5, which matched his very worst 3-pt shooting night last year (twice, plus one in the playoffs).
     
  41. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    8,889
    Small sample size and all but to date it looks like he's improved his handle(s) and vision a little bit while improving his rebounding a lot though some of that may be due to the team shooting 41%.

    Can't say I'm worried about his shooting so far. I'd guess his 3 point % will go down from last year anyway since his volume will be up considerably. I still expect him to be around 40% though.
     
  42. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

    Messages:
    16,662
    One thing Larry Bird used to pride himself on is that every summer he would work on one specific skill and come to training camp with that skill mastered or much improved. One year it was his left hand, another year his foot speed, another was low post moves, etc. I have no idea what Tatum's summer workouts looked like but if he was focusing on adding strength and improving his body this summer then I wouldn't expect him to come to camp with an improved 3-point shot. This goes back to my plea in giving Tatum 3-4 years to reach his peak rather than expecting him to be a "veteran All-Star" in year two. It truly is a process.
     
  43. Reverend

    Reverend for king and country Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    36,885
    I buy this. It's also a strong approach.

    [​IMG]

    I wonder how much team level discussion there is about what players work on in the off-season at this point. Like, there's working on your game, and then working on specific pieces the team can make maximal usage of. I wonder how they work that out.
     
  44. Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat

    Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat has big, douchey shoulders Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    30,735
    On Get Up this morning, Jalen Rose did a little feature on his list of the top 5 players 25 or under.

    1. Davis
    2. Giannis
    3. Embiid
    4. Tatum
    5. Simmons

    He got a little push back about Tatum over KAT, and even a little about Mitchell, but Rose was strong in his evaluation of Tatum. I know it's meaningless, but I do love to see shit like this.
     
  45. HowBoutDemSox

    HowBoutDemSox Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    2,977
    Davis v. Giannis is a fascinating debate, maybe worthy of its own thread. I could go back and forth each time I consider it.

    I'm also biased, but I'd go Tatum over Embiid, just given the importance of wings over centers in today's game, plus the age difference of four years.
     
  46. DGreenwood

    DGreenwood Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,245
    And the injury history. Young big men who can't stay healthy don't usually get healthier as they get older.
     
  47. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    8,889
    Just a few days ago someone on here was saying Jokic was a top 5 player in the league. He's arguably not even a top 5 player under 25. Crazy how much young talent is in the league right now, and how much of that talent is "big."

    The current crop of big guys in the NBA is easily the best since at least the early 90's.
     
  48. TripleOT

    TripleOT Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,059
    Watching JT the first five games, my first thought is: "He's pressing his one on one offense a lot." So far, only 28% of hit twos and 38% of his shots overall have been assisted. Last season, 55% of his twos and 66% of all shots were assisted. Last season, his ratio of mid-range twos to threes was 1:1, this season it's 3:2.

    Maybe it's the Kobe effect. This is what superstar scorers do, but iso gunning from mid-range isn't needed on a team stacked with offensive weapons. I'd prefer him to take the ball to the hoop more (72% at the rim this season, but only 18 attempts, compared to 22 threeballs and 17 long twos).
     
  49. JakeRae

    JakeRae Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    6,266
    I think it's pretty insane to consider either Tatum or Simmons in the same class as Jokic right now. (I don't think Embiid is close either but am being a bit conservative since the world of NBA player rankings is much higher on Embiid than I am.)

    Jokic should be a consensus top 10 player and is an arguable top 5 player. That he isn't is a failure or analysts to look past his weaknesses and his body type/composition, not a product of his on court performance. Honestly, if Jokic looked more athletic and otherwise played the exact same game, I think he'd easily be a consensus top 10 player and would get named as a long shot MVP candidate.
     
  50. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,744
    He is not an arguable top 5 player though. I think Jokic is fucking awesome. But he is well below Curry, Durant, James, Davis, Giannis, Harden, Kawhi for sure
     

Share This Page