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Discussion in 'Rick Middleton's Pron 'Stache: Bruins Forum' started by cshea, Jan 21, 2019.
Oilers waive Ryan Spooner today.
Turned Eberle into a waiver claim. Unreal.
So, the players involved in the Nash trade:
Matt Beleskey has 1 goal in 4 NHL games this season. I believe he still counts for $1.9M agains the B's cap next season.
Ryan Lindgren has had 5 assists in 35 games for Hartford, and is a -1 in 3 scoreless NHL games this season.
The B's may end up missing out on K'Andre Miller, but he's still a few years away from seeing NHL action.
Renaud Lavoie breaks the story at 3:15 AM Mountain Time, but Chiarelli out in Edmonton.
It is amazing that they let Chiarelli sign his 30-year old backup goalie with 31 games of NHL experience to a 3-year, $4.5 AAV extension merely hours before firing him.
They had to take away the keys before the trade deadline to stop him from creating more long term damage. He’s had a Milbury-with-the-Islanders run in Edmonton. Truly horrendous stuff. Hall for Larsson. Eberle to Strome to Spooner. A first (Barzal) and a second (Beauvillier) for Griffin Reinhardt. The Lucic contract. The job-saving short term moves this year were misfires, adding Spooner and his $3.1 million contract for next year plus a guy like Brandon Manning who makes $2.25 AAV through next year and was a healthy scratch on a bad Blackhawks team. He’s dug a big dig sized hole for whoever succeeds him. It’s also pretty damning that he missed so badly on 2 players that he had in Boston, Lucic and Spooner.
The issues in Edmonton begin at the top, but this is a move they absolutely had to make. Now they need to show restraint and let the year play out. They can’t keep spending assets to chase a playoffs.
If I squint I can see the justification for the Hall/Larsson trade especially with the RHD premium that the market demands. The rest? I mean he got schooled by Garth Snow.
The good news for them is the star core is still young but whoever takes over needs to be patient and let the prospect pipeline build further while some of these contracts (Sekera included) run their course.
With trade protection, naturally.
Is Spooner a possibility to come back? Not at that cost, obviously, but what are the FA rules if he clears waivers? Is it like MLB where another team could grab him for the minimum?
Nope. He cleared waivers yesterday. If he was claimed, the claiming team would be responsible for the contract. He’ll remain under Oilers control until they either buy him out or trade him. Buyout can only happen in the summer.
Even if it was league minimum, he has 5 points in 40+ games this year. I don't see where he'd fit on this team.
Wow. That could be one of the worst runs of deals in NHL history. Truly awful.
No. No no no no no no no no no.
The crazy thing is that I thought it was a mistake to fire him in Boston.
I didn't realize his production had fallen off so significantly. And if at full cost, then absolutely not.
In hindsight, having Chara, Bergeron, Thomas/Rask in their primes covered up *a lot* of bad roster construction. They had a F, D, and G playing at hall of fame levels for cheap money, the more I think about it, the more I think they underachieved those years, especially with regards to the front office.
I'm not sure about that. The 2012 and 2014 teams were excellent but got stoned by out of mind goalies (fuck you Holtby and Price). And of course 2011 and 2013 were great runs.
This post just totally blew my mind. You're absolutely right. I thought the Savard injury was the thing that held then back, but you're totally making me re-evaluation.
Jeff Gorton left him with the young nucleus of that team. Bergeron and Krejci were Gorton picks Marchand and Lucic were drafted while Chiarelli was still technically with Ottawa, but all of the scouting work was done by Gorton’s team. At the time, Jacobs couldn’t elevate him to GM after the O’Connell fiasco (Fans would’ve been screaming “Same ol Bruins”) so they had to go outside the organization, but history is starting to show that Gorton may be the better GM of the two in the long run.
Eh, that is probably a hot take. Gorton has had the Rangers for 3.5 seasons and has 1 playoff series win and is in the midst of a rebuild.
Chiarelli’s 9 seasons in Boston included 2 conference titles, 1 Stanley Cup, 1 Presidents Trophy and 7 playoff appearances. There aren’t many GM’s with that kind of run with 1 team around. It is basically Bowman in Chicago, Rutherford in Pittsburgh and Lombardi in LA. Sure, Chiarelli inherited pieces of the core, but so doesn't everyone. Tallon basically built the Blackhawks, Rutherford took over a Crosby/Malkin/Letanf/Fleury team. Lombardi built most of the Kings but did inherit Kopitar.
Chiarelli did a lot of good things in Boston. They fired him at the exact right time. Ultimately I think his biggest flaw was a refusal or lack of foresight to adapt to the changing league. The Bruins team he built was the last heavy team to win a Cup. He tried to go heavy in Edmonton when the league was going speed and skill. It blew up in his face and he refused to adapt.
Maybe it is. I just always thought Chiarelli was very overrated. Too many bad contracts, valuing the wrong things in players, bad drafts, etc. I’m much more comfortable with Sweeney building the team than I was with Chiarelli. I don’t constantly feel like there is a danger of losing good young players because they overpaid grinders like I did with Chiarelli. Probably just my perception so who knows.
Chiarelli did make some solid moves during his time in Boston. Picking up Peverley and Kelly for the 2011 stretch run likely won them the Cup. And like every NHL GM he had to make decisions on which good young player to keep and which ones to let walk during an era when the salary cap gyrated from year to year. He kept Krejci and traded Kessel, whom he was able to turn into some real assets.
It was definitely time for him to go, however, as I agree that he didn't keep up with a changing league. Say what you will about trading Seguin (not going to litigate that decision here), but he could have gotten a lot more for Seguin than the meager return he ended up settling for.
Chiarelli made some good trades. Horton for Wideman and #15, Ference and Kobasew for Stuart and Primeau, Seidenberg and Bartkowski for Bitz, Weller and a 2nd, we’re all solid moves that helped build that 2011 team. Long term however, his cap management was poor. He overpaid too many roll guys, and panicked giving away an elite young talent for basically nothing. That team should have been set up to compete for cups for another 4 years after they lost to Chicago but his cap management and roster decisions shortened that window considerably. I’m glad ownership moved on from him.
New threads are fun!
I thought he was average in the sense that he did some good stuff and some not good stuff.
But his NMC/NTC obsession is outrageous and has hamstrung two different organizations. That shit alone bumps him to the negative side of the ledger for me.
They went all in on that 13/14 team, were a wagon, and then had to pay the penalty on the 14/15 season for the bonus overages like Iginla. I’d do that again. The Seguin deal can be beaten to death. He got a bad return, but I’m not sure he was the final decision maker with regards to actually trading Seguin. Bad drafts left them needing to overpay to keep the Kelly’s and Peverley’s and such around since they didn’t have any kids on ELC’s ready as replacements. These are all fair criticisms and reasons why he was dismissed.
I just think his good here outweighed the bad. He changed the culture. They were in a real bad place as a franchise when he took over and during his tenure the team was a contender more often than not.
That 2014 team was stacked. Not seeing them in the Cup finals against LA was a major disappointment as that would have been an epic matchup. Instead a mediocre Rangers team got funneled to their slaughter.
Always giving players NMC/NTC and adding what seemed like an extra year or two to contracts always annoyed me.
I don't have time to research properly so I apologize for a somewhat content-lacking post, but those things have stuck with me.
I hear this a lot from Bruins fans that hate Chiarelli. What are all the bad contracts? Was Chris Kelly the worst(and I don't even think that was a terrible idea, just worked out badly due to injuries)?
I'd make the case the current Bruins front office has already signed three deals that were worse than any contract Chiarelli signed in Backes, Beleskey and Jimmy Hayes.
Chiarelli sure gets a lot of heat considering he's the only GM that's won a Cup here in close to 50 years now.
To clarify, I don’t think Chiarelli did a bad job in Boston. Maybe average as far as NHL GMs go? But when he left the Bruins my opinion of him was much higher.
His approach with the Bruins was generally appropriate but not groundbreaking. He was never able (willing?) to get a puck moving defenseman until Krug came along. That was 7 years into his job. Other than that it was Wideman and a half year of Kaberle. I feel like those Bruins teams had a reputation for being deep and balanced but I really think it was the opposite. It was some great players surrounded by solid role players. And that worked because they had great players.
In Edmonton he doesn’t have enough great players to take that approach. And he hasn’t adapted to the modern NHL and has acquired a bunch of bad players to fill out the roster.
Regarding the comment regarding Chiarelli leaving behind a bunch of bad contracts, I believe the impression was formed by the 2014-15 team which did have some aging players on bad contracts:
- Chiarelli signed Dennis Seidenberg to a 4 year, $16M contract just prior to the 2013-14 which will impact the Bruins books into next season. He was 32 at the time. He got off to a slow start in his first 34 games before he got hurt, and was never the same for the Bruins.
- Chris Kelly was about to go into the final year of his contract. He wasn't as terrible as was made out to be here, although at $3M/year he was somewhat overpaid. Then he got hurt for his final season here.
- Greg Campbell's contract wasn't bad necessarily ($1.7M). The problem was that he, along with Paille, were given major minutes even though it was clear he couldn't really keep up to the faster pace of play as he aged. It was noted upthread that Chiarelli's main mistake was not finding younger, cheaper players to fill the 4th line (no, Jordan Caron doesn't count).
- Reilly Smith was, OTOH, a horrible signing. It was Chiarelli's version of the Jimmy Hayes contract.
The remaining big contracts were David Krejci, Rask, Bergeron, Chara, and Brad Marchand's previous contract. Aside possibly from Krejci, none of those can be considered bad contracts, or even bad decisions.
Chiarelli did try to resign Nathan Horton, and it turned out they dodged a bullet. But no-one expected his career to end at age 29 either.
This makes no sense. Jimmy Hayes had to be bought out even though he was healthy while Reilly Smith and his horrible contract were able to be traded without eating a dollar.(Ironically Jimmy Hayes as part of the deal).
I don't see Seidenberg as a bad contract. It worked out terribly because he got hurt, but I still remember the thread here when he signed. There wasn't a lot of Chiarelli is an idiot, it was heavily praised.
Campbell and Paille contracts were always fine. Don't see a problem with having 4th liners/penalty killers making a bit above a rookie, when if they were replaced by rookies would probably force some of your scoring line forwards to play more penalty kill. Would rather have them use their energy in the offensive end. Don't think saving a million or two replacing them with rookies would've impacted the team positively.
And again, even if you disagree, don't see how any of those deals are worse than Beleskey/Backes.
First, I don't think Chiarelli did leave a bunch of bad contracts behind. I was just explaining the impression of bad contracts was probably left by a couple of contracts that simply didn't work out as hoped, which resulted in my "aging players on bad contracts" comment. Perhaps I was wrong to say "bad contracts", as not all of them were bad when the signing took place (a point I thought I made clear, especially when it came to Kelly's and Campbell's contracts). Should have proofread my post a bit better.
We're going to agree to disagree on Reilly Smith. I hated the Reilly Smith contract from the outset. I hated Reilly Smith the player. But, as much as I hated that contract, it alone was hardly a firing offense. It is correct that the team was able to trade that contract, but that was an unknown at the time Chiarelli was fired.
I do agree that Beleskey and Backes signings were also pretty bad, and are probably as bad as anything Chia did contract-wise. Interesting to note that both signings were well regarded initially by this forum. OTOH, I give Sweeney credit for letting Eriksson walk, and trading Lucic and Spooner before they became bad contracts. Chiarelli smartly did the same with Soderberg (actually, not sure if that was Chia or Sweeney, but I don't think either one ever intended in resigning the Yeti).
Chiarelli made some very good tactical moves, but he was (and has been) more or less the anti-Belichick, in the sense that he prioritized keeping his key guys, overpaid them (including handing out no trade deals) to do so, and would up hamstringing himself by wasting cap space on the downsides of various core players.
Against that, he had - as others have noted - Bergeron, Chara, solid goaltending, a good prospect core (which eventually ran dry after the wasting of high picks on Zach Hamill types), and some strong tactical moves to fill in short-term holes (but even some of those were less outright wins and more selling future for present - adding Peverley was helpful in that playoff run, but Blake Wheeler has had a nice career).
The Tyler Seguin deal was a franchise-altering terrible move. That's true even under the belief (which I don't share) that Seguin had to be dealt. Trading an elite talent for fair value is OK, trading an elite talent for pennies on the dollar is an unforgivable mistake.
The salary cap limitation meant that in order to sign Dennis Seidenberg, he had to get rid of Johnny Boychuk. Krejci is still a good player, but not one who has earned what he's been paid since his big contract.
I also hated Reilly Smith the player, completely a passenger on the Bergeron/Marchand line. But, he was a 50 point player and has continued to be after leaving the Bruins. Just based on that, his contract was not bad. I’m glad Sweeney traded him, wish the return wasn’t Hayes though!
I also don’t want to talk about if Seguin should have been traded but to me, the problem is the decision not the return. Johansen for Jones is the exception, normally it is really hard to get equal return for players like Hall and Seguin. Eriksson was a first line wing, Larsson was a second pairing defenseman with #1 upside.
My hot take is that choosing to trade Seguin and Hall were the problems, not the returns.
The Zach Hamill selection is, IMHO, more of a reflection of the uncertainty of the draft than necessarily an indictment on Chiarelli. That draft was widely thought to be a seven player draft; Hamill was selected eighth. Logan Coture, selected 9th, had 26 goals and 78 points in 54 games in his pre-draft season in the OHL. Hamill had 32 goals and 93 points in the WHL that same season.
I realize that in the bigger picture, Hammil was the pick that highlighted some very lean years following the Kessel/Lucic/Marchand draft. Just saying that the uncertainty in the draft is always high
However bad his Bruins contract was, it wasn't as bad as the next, even fatter one, he signed with the Panthers.
I would agree with this. But the obvious counterargument, very popular at the time of the deal, was that Seguin was a liability who needed to be dealt, wasn't worth his contract, would never win, etc. My response to that would be, OK, look for deals, but you can't do it as a deep discount.
The big issue with Chiraelli's drafting is that if you exclude top 10 picks, he hit on basically nothing between the Lucic/Marchand draft (2006, right when he took over, draft prep not done by him) and the Pastrnak draft (2014). Look through that whole span of time, and all Chiarelli hit on was Ryan Spooner and Matt Grzelcyk. Add in his top 10 picks and you have Seguin (obvious choice to anyone at the time), Hamilton, and Hamill. That's a terrible track record.
For comparison, draft hits outside the top 10 from the 7 years before 2006: Krejci, Versteeg, Stuart, Bergeron, Morrisonn, Boynton, Raycroft, plus a couple of lesser guys in Andrew Alberts, Milan Jurcina, Nate Thompson, Matt Hunwick, Vladimir Sobotka.
There was a story floating around over the weekend that the Oilers almost traded the #4 pick in 2016 to NYR for Ryan McDonagh. This was just days before the Hall for Larsson deal. In an alternate universe, Chiarelli makes the McDonagh deal which saves him from the Hall/Larsson swap and perhaps the Lucic free agen signing (he may not have been able to help himself on that one).