I wanted to keep Jimmy over Brady... and LOCKED!!!!!

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Eddie Jurak

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The idea that Garoppolo might be a 1-year wonder is being given way more credence than it deserves. All quarterbacks who are getting their first chance to start aren’t the same.

The argument that trading Jimmy was the right move doesn’t rest on the possibility that Jimmy will bust, anyway.
 

kelpapa

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Not sure I'd trade Garoppolo for Goff. Everybody talks about the great move up in head coaching talent from Fisher to McVay, but should it make that much difference in QB play? I want to see another good year from Goff.
Jeff Garcia was on pardon my take a month back, and he talked about being on Jeff fishers staff with the rams. He was an offensive assistant and he said Fisher doesn't give his quarterbacks an opportunity to succeed. He specifically mentioned going to work with the qb once and Fisher kicked him out/told him that wasn't his job. Garcia isn't a hall of famer, but he had a good career. The idea that you wouldn't want him working with your qb while he's on your staff is... Odd.

The upgrade from Fisher is real.
 

Average Reds

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The idea that Garoppolo might be a 1-year wonder is being given way more credence than it deserves. All quarterbacks who are getting their first chance to start aren’t the same.

The argument that trading Jimmy was the right move doesn’t rest on the possibility that Jimmy will bust, anyway.
This is not close to what people are saying.

Edit: but it’s not my fight, so I will bow out.
 

heavyde050

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Lombardi used to go on and on about how beautiful a deep ball Jimmy threw compared to Brady. Since he has gone to the 49ers he has been trash on passes over 20 yards. I know he doesn’t have the best weapons but he has been super bad.
Jimmy is money on the short and intermediate stuff. Hopefully he gets better on the deep stuff.
 

TheoShmeo

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Lombardi used to go on and on about how beautiful a deep ball Jimmy threw compared to Brady. Since he has gone to the 49ers he has been trash on passes over 20 yards. I know he doesn’t have the best weapons but he has been super bad.
Jimmy is money on the short and intermediate stuff. Hopefully he gets better on the deep stuff.
Brady was not great on deep passes early in his career and while he was particularly good early in this season, his performance on them deteriorated as the year went along.* The point is not to dissect Tom but rather to note that even the GOAT took time to become a great deep ball thrower and still managed to win SBs before he was that. And yes, I know that Tom threw some spectacular deep balls early on in his career (the OT pass in Miami, the deep balls in the second Steelers AFC Champ game both come to mind, among others).

And Red Averages, totally agreed that Jimmy might not become elite. Very few guys are elite, by definition. There are a lot of Matt Flynn types out there. But I continue to think that there is good reason to think that JG has that potential. From his impressive early record, to the ball he throws, to his similarity to both Tom and Rodgers in some important respects, to his athleticism and to his confidence level, I think he has as good a chance as any young QB I have seen in recent years to become elite. And if not elite, good enough to allow his team to compete for the title.

* Yes, reasons for that could relate heavily to injuries to key players and Tom's physical condition.
 

Eddie Jurak

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The idea that Garoppolo might be a 1-year wonder is being given way more credence than it deserves.
This is not close to what people are saying.
Ummm...
He may very well be an elite QB. Or, he may be Matt Flynn/Scott Mitchell/(insert one season wonder here.)
A statement like this is exactly what I would call "giving the idea that Garoppolo might be a 1-year wonder way more credence than it deserves."
 
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Eddie Jurak

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Lombardi used to go on and on about how beautiful a deep ball Jimmy threw compared to Brady. Since he has gone to the 49ers he has been trash on passes over 20 yards. I know he doesn’t have the best weapons but he has been super bad.
Jimmy is money on the short and intermediate stuff. Hopefully he gets better on the deep stuff.
I always thought Garoppolo was better than Brady on lofted touch passes. He seemed, from the outset, to have a real knack for dropping the ball in right where it needed to be, where Brady did not have the same knack. That's a very small part of the game, though. At least it has been a very small part of Brady's game over his 17-year GOAT career.
But I continue to think that there is good reason to think that JG has that potential. From his impressive early record, to the ball he throws, to his similarity to both Tom and Rodgers in some important respects, to his athleticism and to his confidence level, I think he has as good a chance as any young QB I have seen in recent years to become elite. And if not elite, good enough to allow his team to compete for the title.
This has been my point. There's a lot known about Jimmy beyond the fact that he has 7 starts and 7 wins, some of which you note here. By contrast, Matt Flynn (since his name keeps coming up) was in his 6th year, on his 3rd team, and widely deemed an NFL journeyman backup before he got his 3rd NFL start. The only thing Flynn and Garoppolo have in common is that they have both started 7 NFL games.
 

Deathofthebambino

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This has been my point. There's a lot known about Jimmy beyond the fact that he has 7 starts and 7 wins, some of which you note here. By contrast, Matt Flynn (since his name keeps coming up) was in his 6th year, on his 3rd team, and widely deemed an NFL journeyman backup before he got his 3rd NFL start. The only thing Flynn and Garoppolo have in common is that they have both started 7 NFL games.
That's not really true. He wasn't a journeyman backup. He spent his first four years as the backup to Aaron Rodgers in Green Bay. Like Jimmy G. who got 1.5 starts while waiting behind Brady, Flynn got one start behind Rodgers in his first four years, and he set the single game Packer record for yards and touchdowns in that game.

Instead of waiting for him to become a free agent, the Pats traded Jimmy G. If Beathard didn't get hurt, would San Francisco even have given Jimmy G. the reigns this year? All signs seem to say no. Thus, the only real difference between Jimmy G. and Flynn, at this point in their respective careers, is that Jimmy only spent 3.5 seasons in NE, as opposed to Flynn's 4 in Green Bay, and Jimmy G. was fortunate enough that after he got traded, the guy in front of him got hurt and he ended up with a late season 5 game audition that Flynn didn't get.

When Flynn became a free agent, he got a starting QB contract from Seattle, but they drafted a guy named Russell Wilson during the same offseason, so he never had a chance to play there either. They traded him to Oakland after one season when it became clear Wilson was the real deal.

He then loses the job to Terrell Pryor in the pre-season, starts in Week 4 when Pryor gets hurt, and plays ok, and then Dennis Allen basically demotes him to third string and then releases him, he then goes to Buffalo for a few weeks to serve as an emergency backup, and gets released, and then finishes the season back in Green Bay where he gets a few starts after Rodgers gets hurt, and plays pretty damn well. Well enough that he should have gotten a look as a starter somewhere after that. The whole thing was very strange and if anybody in NFL history has a gripe with how shitty their luck was, it might be Matt Flynn. The guy was clearly good enough to get a solid look somewhere, but he spent his first five seasons behind two hall of fame QB's in two cities, and then when he did go somewhere that he should have got a chance, it ended up being a completely dysfunctional Oakland organization that probably never realized what they had.

I have a question: Do you think it's more likely that Jimmy G. has a decent, average NFL career, or he has a career like Tom Brady's? You're jumping on people for "comparing" him to Matt Flynn, and then making claims that Jimmy G. (who has played 7 games) is already better at certain types of passes than Tom Brady (who has won almost as many Super Bowls as games Jimmy G. has played), so I have to believe you think it's the latter, no?
 

Al Zarilla

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That's not really true. He wasn't a journeyman backup. He spent his first four years as the backup to Aaron Rodgers in Green Bay. Like Jimmy G. who got 1.5 starts while waiting behind Brady, Flynn got one start behind Rodgers in his first four years, and he set the single game Packer record for yards and touchdowns in that game.

Instead of waiting for him to become a free agent, the Pats traded Jimmy G. If Beathard didn't get hurt, would San Francisco even have given Jimmy G. the reigns this year? All signs seem to say no. Thus, the only real difference between Jimmy G. and Flynn, at this point in their respective careers, is that Jimmy only spent 3.5 seasons in NE, as opposed to Flynn's 4 in Green Bay, and Jimmy G. was fortunate enough that after he got traded, the guy in front of him got hurt and he ended up with a late season 5 game audition that Flynn didn't get.

When Flynn became a free agent, he got a starting QB contract from Seattle, but they drafted a guy named Russell Wilson during the same offseason, so he never had a chance to play there either. They traded him to Oakland after one season when it became clear Wilson was the real deal.

He then loses the job to Terrell Pryor in the pre-season, starts in Week 4 when Pryor gets hurt, and plays ok, and then Dennis Allen basically demotes him to third string and then releases him, he then goes to Buffalo for a few weeks to serve as an emergency backup, and gets released, and then finishes the season back in Green Bay where he gets a few starts after Rodgers gets hurt, and plays pretty damn well. Well enough that he should have gotten a look as a starter somewhere after that. The whole thing was very strange and if anybody in NFL history has a gripe with how shitty their luck was, it might be Matt Flynn. The guy was clearly good enough to get a solid look somewhere, but he spent his first five seasons behind two hall of fame QB's in two cities, and then when he did go somewhere that he should have got a chance, it ended up being a completely dysfunctional Oakland organization that probably never realized what they had.

I have a question: Do you think it's more likely that Jimmy G. has a decent, average NFL career, or he has a career like Tom Brady's? You're jumping on people for "comparing" him to Matt Flynn, and then making claims that Jimmy G. (who has played 7 games) is already better at certain types of passes than Tom Brady (who has won almost as many Super Bowls as games Jimmy G. has played), so I have to believe you think it's the latter, no?
I didn’t start watching the 49ers this year until Jimmy became the starter, but Beathard was having a bad year in terms of all QB stats, and W/L. Why wouldn’t they try out the shiny new toy when he had learned the system enough?
 

heavyde050

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I didn’t start watching the 49ers this year until Jimmy became the starter, but Beathard was having a bad year in terms of all QB stats, and W/L. Why wouldn’t they try out the shiny new toy when he had learned the system enough?
Beathard acquitted himself well for a rookie (who wasn’t even expected to play).
He did light the Giants up.
I have season tickets to the 49ers. They were never as bad as their 0-9 record and certainly not as good as the 5 game win streak. They are probably an 8 or 9 win team next year if everything goes perfectly this offseason.
 

Eddie Jurak

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By contrast, Matt Flynn (since his name keeps coming up) was in his 6th year, on his 3rd team, and widely deemed an NFL journeyman backup before he got his 3rd NFL start. The only thing Flynn and Garoppolo have in common is that they have both started 7 NFL games.
That's not really true. He wasn't a journeyman backup. He spent his first four years as the backup to Aaron Rodgers in Green Bay. Like Jimmy G. who got 1.5 starts while waiting behind Brady, Flynn got one start behind Rodgers in his first four years, and he set the single game Packer record for yards and touchdowns in that game.
I think you misread my post, or I was too vague. At the time that Matt Flynn signed his $20 million contract (with $9 million bonus) with Seattle, he was what you describe. A hot commodity on the free agent market, hot enough at least to command that kind of coin as a free agent despite only 2 starts (he had a decent start against the Patriots the year before his big 400+ year, 6 TD start on his way to free agency).

But I would argue that by the time he got his third start, or at least his fourth, he was well-established as an NFL journeyman, which is what I meant in my post, and a lot of which you detail in your summary of his career. During that season he finished out as the GB starter, he was behind, at various times, Terrell Pryor who is now a WR, undrafted rookie Matt McGloin, EJ Manuel, Thad Lewis, undrafted rookie Jeff Tuel, and undrafted (but at least not a rookie) Scott Tolzien. That is an awful lot of forgettables and nobodies.

Instead of waiting for him to become a free agent, the Pats traded Jimmy G. If Beathard didn't get hurt, would San Francisco even have given Jimmy G. the reigns this year? All signs seem to say no. Thus, the only real difference between Jimmy G. and Flynn, at this point in their respective careers, is that Jimmy only spent 3.5 seasons in NE, as opposed to Flynn's 4 in Green Bay, and Jimmy G. was fortunate enough that after he got traded, the guy in front of him got hurt and he ended up with a late season 5 game audition that Flynn didn't get.
This is where I disagree. Flynn was a 7th round pick, Jimmy a 2nd. Flynn signed for $9 million guaranteed, Jimmy (I think) would have gotten more had he played out out the string and left, even after adjusting for rising salaries. Jimmy was traded for what was expected to be a high second round pick, Flynn after not playing in Seattle was dealt for a 3rd. After his deal, Flynn played with 3 different teams where he was able to beat out exactly 1 of a long string of nobodies, and the decent numbers he put up in the last 5 games of the year didn't really impress anyone enough to want to give him another shot.

After a 1-year stint as a backup in GB, Flynn then bounced around some more: signed by the Pats in the offseason prior to 2015, then cut in August, signed by the Jets, cut after starting the 4th preseaon game, then signed by the Saints.

I guess where you see a hard luck guy who deserved a better shot than he ever got, I see a guy who failed numerous times to win jobs against mediocre competition. If we are going to compare him to a former Patriots QB... I think he's far closer to Ryan Mallett than to Jimmy. He was fortunate to get a start on a powerhouse team and make the most of it, but that didn't lead GB to try to hang on to him or get value from him as the Pats did with Cassel.

In some of Flynn's stops, dealing with new offensive systems could have been an issue (his best play by far was in his original system in GB), but a couple of his moves happened in the offseason when there would have been time to learn. (Jimmy, by contrast, picked up SF's new (to him) system well enough in a few weeks after a midseason trade to lead that bad team to 5 straight wins. Pulling THAT off would probably have been a challenge for Brady.)

I have a question: Do you think it's more likely that Jimmy G. has a decent, average NFL career, or he has a career like Tom Brady's? You're jumping on people for "comparing" him to Matt Flynn, and then making claims that Jimmy G. (who has played 7 games) is already better at certain types of passes than Tom Brady (who has won almost as many Super Bowls as games Jimmy G. has played), so I have to believe you think it's the latter, no?
That's a very weird spin to put on my response to someone commenting about Garoppolo and deep balls. But, a more detailed answer: I don't know how well Garoppolo throws the deep ball, I haven't seen him throw enough of them to have an opinion. I don't think Brady is particularly great at the deep ball - the reasons for his extraordinary success as an NFL QB are many; throwing the deep ball wouldn't make my top 5 (in no particular order: arm strength, pinpint accuracy, ability to read defenses, judgment, durability, and mobility inside the pocket, most of which he does as well if not better than anyone else who has played the position). I wouldn't put Jimmy's seeming knack for one particular type of deep ball that doesn't happen to be a strength of Brady's up against the stuff Brady does well.

Bottom line, I think Jimmy is, already, a poor man's Brady. There is no other guy in the league I would want to drop in as NE's starter on short notice. That's not to say that Jimmy is the second-best QB in the league or anything - maybe he'll get to that level but realistically the odds are against it. I think "decent, average NFL career" is below his realistic floor, and "career like Tom Brady" is above his realistic ceiling.
 

heavyde050

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I think you misread my post, or I was too vague. At the time that Matt Flynn signed his $20 million contract (with $9 million bonus) with Seattle, he was what you describe. A hot commodity on the free agent market, hot enough at least to command that kind of coin as a free agent despite only 2 starts (he had a decent start against the Patriots the year before his big 400+ year, 6 TD start on his way to free agency).

But I would argue that by the time he got his third start, or at least his fourth, he was well-established as an NFL journeyman, which is what I meant in my post, and a lot of which you detail in your summary of his career. During that season he finished out as the GB starter, he was behind, at various times, Terrell Pryor who is now a WR, undrafted rookie Matt McGloin, EJ Manuel, Thad Lewis, undrafted rookie Jeff Tuel, and undrafted (but at least not a rookie) Scott Tolzien. That is an awful lot of forgettables and nobodies.

This is where I disagree. Flynn was a 7th round pick, Jimmy a 2nd. Flynn signed for $9 million guaranteed, Jimmy (I think) would have gotten more had he played out out the string and left, even after adjusting for rising salaries. Jimmy was traded for what was expected to be a high second round pick, Flynn after not playing in Seattle was dealt for a 3rd. After his deal, Flynn played with 3 different teams where he was able to beat out exactly 1 of a long string of nobodies, and the decent numbers he put up in the last 5 games of the year didn't really impress anyone enough to want to give him another shot.

After a 1-year stint as a backup in GB, Flynn then bounced around some more: signed by the Pats in the offseason prior to 2015, then cut in August, signed by the Jets, cut after starting the 4th preseaon game, then signed by the Saints.

I guess where you see a hard luck guy who deserved a better shot than he ever got, I see a guy who failed numerous times to win jobs against mediocre competition. If we are going to compare him to a former Patriots QB... I think he's far closer to Ryan Mallett than to Jimmy. He was fortunate to get a start on a powerhouse team and make the most of it, but that didn't lead GB to try to hang on to him or get value from him as the Pats did with Cassel.

In some of Flynn's stops, dealing with new offensive systems could have been an issue (his best play by far was in his original system in GB), but a couple of his moves happened in the offseason when there would have been time to learn. (Jimmy, by contrast, picked up SF's new (to him) system well enough in a few weeks after a midseason trade to lead that bad team to 5 straight wins. Pulling THAT off would probably have been a challenge for Brady.)

That's a very weird spin to put on my response to someone commenting about Garoppolo and deep balls. But, a more detailed answer: I don't know how well Garoppolo throws the deep ball, I haven't seen him throw enough of them to have an opinion. I don't think Brady is particularly great at the deep ball - the reasons for his extraordinary success as an NFL QB are many; throwing the deep ball wouldn't make my top 5 (in no particular order: arm strength, pinpint accuracy, ability to read defenses, judgment, durability, and mobility inside the pocket, most of which he does as well if not better than anyone else who has played the position). I wouldn't put Jimmy's seeming knack for one particular type of deep ball that doesn't happen to be a strength of Brady's up against the stuff Brady does well.

Bottom line, I think Jimmy is, already, a poor man's Brady. There is no other guy in the league I would want to drop in as NE's starter on short notice. That's not to say that Jimmy is the second-best QB in the league or anything - maybe he'll get to that level but realistically the odds are against it. I think "decent, average NFL career" is below his realistic floor, and "career like Tom Brady" is above his realistic ceiling.
Very good post. But I would call Jimmy a homeless man’s Brady at best.
It isn’t fair to any young QB to be compared to an all-timer.
Physically they are nothing alike (unless someone wants to mention handsomeness). One was a 2nd round pick and one was 6th rounder.
In fact if Jimmy wasn’t a former backup of Brady, I really don’t think Jimmy would be compared to Brady at all.
I still think Jimmy is Romo 2.0.
That is a good thing if you are a 49ers fan and if the Pats do well with the 2nd round top 10 pick it can be a win for both franchises.
 

Eddie Jurak

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In fact if Jimmy wasn’t a former backup of Brady, I really don’t think Jimmy would be compared to Brady at all.
Part of what I was getting at in my post is that I think the things the Patriots ask of Brady are quite difficult to do and would be beyond the abilities of most QBs, even some of those who are actually good. Jimmy, though, is good enough to step in and fake it for a few games at least, as we saw last year. I think that is where the very complementary remarks from Belichick at the time of the trade came from. It also speaks very well of Jimmy that, after a sudden change of teams and systems, he could play well enough to win 5 straight games with a team that was 1-10 before he started a game. Those are 2 significant things that aren't true of most young QBs first breaking into a lineup.

While you are probably right that poor man's Brady is unfair, I put it that way because I think he can literally step into Tom Brady's offense, run it somewhat the way Brady would, and have some success. Part of that is because of Jimmy was a Patriot, but I don't think Brissett or Mallett were anywhere near that level during their time here.
 

heavyde050

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Part of what I was getting at in my post is that I think the things the Patriots ask of Brady are quite difficult to do and would be beyond the abilities of most QBs, even some of those who are actually good. Jimmy, though, is good enough to step in and fake it for a few games at least, as we saw last year. I think that is where the very complementary remarks from Belichick at the time of the trade came from. It also speaks very well of Jimmy that, after a sudden change of teams and systems, he could play well enough to win 5 straight games with a team that was 1-10 before he started a game. Those are 2 significant things that aren't true of most young QBs first breaking into a lineup.

While you are probably right that poor man's Brady is unfair, I put it that way because I think he can literally step into Tom Brady's offense, run it somewhat the way Brady would, and have some success. Part of that is because of Jimmy was a Patriot, but I don't think Brissett or Mallett were anywhere near that level during their time here.
That makes much more sense. I originally read the poor man’s Brady as level of skill.
Your follow-up explanation makes much more sense, as Jimmy could probably win 10 games with a healthy Pats’ team if all went well.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I think you misread my post, or I was too vague. At the time that Matt Flynn signed his $20 million contract (with $9 million bonus) with Seattle, he was what you describe. A hot commodity on the free agent market, hot enough at least to command that kind of coin as a free agent despite only 2 starts (he had a decent start against the Patriots the year before his big 400+ year, 6 TD start on his way to free agency).

But I would argue that by the time he got his third start, or at least his fourth, he was well-established as an NFL journeyman, which is what I meant in my post, and a lot of which you detail in your summary of his career. During that season he finished out as the GB starter, he was behind, at various times, Terrell Pryor who is now a WR, undrafted rookie Matt McGloin, EJ Manuel, Thad Lewis, undrafted rookie Jeff Tuel, and undrafted (but at least not a rookie) Scott Tolzien. That is an awful lot of forgettables and nobodies.
.
I'll take on the rest of the post when I have some more time, but I think you're missing the timeline here. He went from hot commodity to journeyman in one season? All of those people you mention happened during the same season. It's not like he was spending a year here, a year there, etc. He spent 4 years in Green Bay behind Rodgers, went to Seattle in 2012, and immediately lost the job to Russell Wilson and sat behind him for a year. Then he was traded to Oakland, went to Buffalo and back to Green Bay all in the same season, 2013.

So, one year after Seattle gave him 20 million bucks, he turned into a journeyman clipboard holder? No, the guy got screwed by Oakland after he was traded to them, and then released, and Buffalo signed him short term because they were down to their 3rd string guy (say what you want now about EJ Manuel, but in 2013, he was Buffalo's 1st round pick, so he was the future, and they weren't going to create a potential controversy by putting Flynn on the field) and he ended up back in Green Bay. He was the backup to Tolzien for exactly 12 days before he got the starting job in Green Bay, and he started for them on Thanksgiving (which gives you an idea of just how short his Oakland/Buffalo swing was).

I think Flynn's biggest mistake was signing a one year deal with Green Bay after that, for the 2014 season. I'm sure he could have signed as a backup for a dozen other teams with QB's much worse than Rodgers and created a quarterback controversy that would never have existed in Green Bay, but he didn't, and at that point, his fate was sealed, but by the time he got his few starts at the end of the 2013 season, I very much disagree that was a journeyman backup.
 

Deathofthebambino

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That's a very weird spin to put on my response to someone commenting about Garoppolo and deep balls. But, a more detailed answer: I don't know how well Garoppolo throws the deep ball, I haven't seen him throw enough of them to have an opinion. I don't think Brady is particularly great at the deep ball - the reasons for his extraordinary success as an NFL QB are many; throwing the deep ball wouldn't make my top 5 (in no particular order: arm strength, pinpint accuracy, ability to read defenses, judgment, durability, and mobility inside the pocket, most of which he does as well if not better than anyone else who has played the position). I wouldn't put Jimmy's seeming knack for one particular type of deep ball that doesn't happen to be a strength of Brady's up against the stuff Brady does well.

Bottom line, I think Jimmy is, already, a poor man's Brady. There is no other guy in the league I would want to drop in as NE's starter on short notice. That's not to say that Jimmy is the second-best QB in the league or anything - maybe he'll get to that level but realistically the odds are against it. I think "decent, average NFL career" is below his realistic floor, and "career like Tom Brady" is above his realistic ceiling.
I wasn't talking about the deep ball. I was talking about this post where you state that you think Jimmy has always been better than Brady at dropping in a touch pass:

I always thought Garoppolo was better than Brady on lofted touch passes. He seemed, from the outset, to have a real knack for dropping the ball in right where it needed to be, where Brady did not have the same knack. That's a very small part of the game, though. At least it has been a very small part of Brady's game over his 17-year GOAT career.

We've now established that Jimmy G. is better at lofted touch passes, and Brady isn't very good at deep balls. Go on.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I think that is where the very complementary remarks from Belichick at the time of the trade came from.
I've seen you reference this multiple times, and I'm just not getting it. What did you expect Belichick to say? "He sucked, and we don't want him anymore?"

Here's BB after he cut Lawyer Milloy:

"Today is a day that nobody is happy about. This isn't the way we wanted this story to end," coach Bill Belichick said. "This is the hardest player that I have had to release. It was the hardest situation that I've had to go through like this, here or anywhere else."

Mike Vrabe trade:

"When Mike arrived in 2001, we knew we were adding a solid outside linebacker,” said Patriots Head Coach Bill Belichick. “But where Mike took it from there exceeded our highest hopes. Mike Vrabel epitomizes everything a coach could seek in a professional football player: toughness, intelligence, playmaking, leadership, versatility and consistency at the highest level. Behind the scenes, Mike's wit and personality is one of the things we have all enjoyed about coming to work every day. The toughest aspect of my job is the day I stop coaching people like Mike, who did everything in his power to contribute to team success. Of all the players I have coached in my career, there is nobody I enjoyed working with more than Mike. In the same way people recognize guys like Troy Brown, we appreciate and thank Mike Vrabel. He is one of the very special Patriots champions."

Matt Cassel leaving:

"It is very easy to root for guys like Matt Cassel, who do everything the right way and flourish as a result. As much as we would have loved to continue working with Matt, we wish him nothing but the best as he takes this next step forward in his career."

Richard Seymour trade

"From nearly the day he arrived in 2001, Richard Seymour established himself as one of our premier players for nearly a decade," Patriots coach Bill Belichick said Sunday. "His presence has been felt as a force on the field, a respected man off it and a multiyear champion."
"Any transaction we make is with the goal of what is best for our team and, as difficult as it is to part ways with a player of Richard's stature, many factors were taken into account when we considered this trade," Belichick said.
"As an organization, we feel the trade with Oakland brings sufficient value and is in the long-term interest of the club," he added. "We are extremely grateful for the huge impact Richard's elite level of performance had on our success and we wish him the very best during the rest of his career."

Randy Moss trade:

"When I spoke with Randy yesterday morning, the conversations were consistent with what they've been for the last four years: honest, open, very forthright," Belichick said. "We talked about a lot of things that I'll keep between Randy and myself. In the end, it was a difficult decision, but one that I feel is in the best interest of the football team.

"Our team, organizationally, we've had conversations and obviously are comfortable with the trade. We wish Randy the absolute best. He's been a player I've had a good relationship with. He's very honest, when I've asked him questions about football and personnel and things like that. He's been very helpful to me personally. He's been very professional and I think a good teammate and a good contributing member of this team.

"But in the end, that was the decision. I have confidence in our players, that if they continue to work hard and improve that we'll be competitive and be able to win games. That's what we're here to do -- win games. We've won more games than any other team in the last decade. Hopefully we'll continue to win them going forward. That's what we're here for."


Wes Welker leaving:

"There are changes every year on every team," Belichick said when asked what it would be like with Welker gone.

"Look I think Wes was everything we'd hoped he'd be when we traded for him. He was tough, competitive, and very productive," Belichick said. "I think what (Patriots owner) Robert (Kraft) said yesterday (on negotiations) pretty well covered it yesterday."

Logan Mankins trade:

Logan Mankins is everything we would ever want in a football player. It is hard to imagine a better player at his position, a tougher competitor or a person to represent our program. He is one of the all-time great Patriots and the best guard I ever coached. Logan brought a quiet but unmistakable presence and leadership that will be impossible to duplicate. Unfortunately, this is the time of year when difficult decisions have to be made -- and this is one of the most difficult we will ever make -- but like every other decision it was made for what we feel is in the best interests of the team.”

After the Deion Branch trade:

"It's been a long process," Patriots coach Bill Belichick
said. "I think we tried hard to make it work out. I think Deion tried hard. We tried. It didn't work out and we've moved on."


I'm sure I could find quotes for other guys like Chandler Jones or Vinatieri, etc. but I think I've made the point. Belichick is complimentary, and in some cases, overly so, of just about every player that leaves New England, especially guys who have been here for years like Jimmy G.

I included the Deion Branch one at the end because I found it kind of ironic that it was probably the least complimentary BB was about a player after they left. It's ironic because Branch is the one guy that BB went out and traded for later on, so he could get him back, and he's one of the few guys that BB constantly talks about even in the present day. He talks about how he's the quickest receiver he's ever had, how he'd make a good coach, etc. Maybe that's the sign. If BB doesn't talk about a guy much, it means he has plans to go get him later, which should quiet down all the folks that thinks there is a conspiracy afoot, and Jimmy G. will find his way back here in a year or two.

 

Eddie Jurak

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I'll take on the rest of the post when I have some more time, but I think you're missing the timeline here. He went from hot commodity to journeyman in one season?
I think he literally did, in about 1.5 seasons. He signed with Seattle, lost the starting job to Russell Wilson. (OK, not a huge knock on him, given who Russell Wilson became, but, still. It's not unheard of in the NFL for a worse veteran to beat out a better rookie, simply due to experience.) Then he was traded in the next offseason, this time losing the staring job to Terrelle Pryor (I think we can agree a huge step down from Wilson). After one start, he loses the second string job to an undrafted rookie (McGloin) and is then cut. He goes to Buffalo, backs up another undrafted rookie (Tuel) and is then cut when EJ Manuel and Thad Lewis are healthy. So, yes, fast descent from commodity to literal journeyman.

I think Flynn's biggest mistake was signing a one year deal with Green Bay after that, for the 2014 season. I'm sure he could have signed as a backup for a dozen other teams with QB's much worse than Rodgers and created a quarterback controversy that would never have existed in Green Bay, but he didn't, and at that point, his fate was sealed, but by the time he got his few starts at the end of the 2013 season, I very much disagree that was a journeyman backup.
This assumes there was interest around the league, which doesn't seem like a given.

We've now established that Jimmy G. is better at lofted touch passes, and Brady isn't very good at deep balls. Go on.
I did, in the part of my post that you apparently chose to ignore.
 

TheoShmeo

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DOTB, your point is well taken about BB gushing about most, if not all, of the players he trades away. I think one distinction here is that I don't recall any other repeated reports that Bill took less than what the market would bear in exchange for the player. Here, it seems that Bill had two goals -- keep JG out of the AFC and not to trade him to a dysfunctional situation. That seems to suggest an extraordinary level of appreciation for the player.

Now I have to admit that I do not know if there were other NFC suitors out there. If the contenders were the Niners, Browns, Bills and Jets, then you could reply that it was just about trading him to an NFC team. And maybe Bill just wanted to ease his ability to one day get Jimmy back, so it was cold and calculating rather than anything else. But I think it's reasonable to believe that the market for Jimmy would have been deeper than that, and that at least part of BB's rationale was based on his relationship with Jimmy and not wanting to throw a grenade on his career.

One more thing. You made a comparison up thread about JG being either Brady like or average QB like. To me, that upper extreme is a bit of a red herring. Brady is the GOAT. We could go decades (if the NFL lasts that long) without another player being like Tom. Jimmy could end up as an elite NFL QB and still be a good bit below Tom. Examples of players like that include Drew Brees, Dan Marino and Ben Rothlisberger, though one could quibble with the latter. I know, and I believe Eddie is with me on this, that the odds are against Jimmy on that, but my point is that I think that JG has that potential, and I don't say that about young QBs very often.
 

bankshot1

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According to this, the Browns were willing to swap the #4 pick in the draft + , for JG, but could not get a convo started with the Pats. Two days later JG was off to SF for what may be the 40th pick.

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2018/01/how_cleveland_browns_were_froz.html#incart_2box_sports


On November 4, I wrote about how the Browns had last talked to the Patriots on October 28.

They couldn't even start a conversation. They were told Garoppolo wasn't available.


I know that Brown was willing to part with Houston's first-round pick and other goodies. He would have been willing to help Belichick shop around for a backup quarterback to help the trade work
.
 

tims4wins

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Doesn't surprise me they couldn't get a conversation started given what we have read about the difficulties surrounding the Collins trade, but it would obviously be disappointing if the Pats didn't even listen to offers. That's just negligence, and hard to believe to be true.
 

Jimbodandy

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Doesn't surprise me they couldn't get a conversation started given what we have read about the difficulties surrounding the Collins trade, but it would obviously be disappointing if the Pats didn't even listen to offers. That's just negligence, and hard to believe to be true.
I think that everyone in football operations without a legit NFL QB is telling his owner directly or indirectly that he was prepared to offer something better than pick 45 for Jimmy G but was shut down. I sure as shit would if I were them.

After the way that he finished out the year, it's fair to say that the national perception of him has changed a tad.
 

tims4wins

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I think that everyone in football operations without a legit NFL QB is telling his owner directly or indirectly that he was prepared to offer something better than pick 45 for Jimmy G but was shut down. I sure as shit would if I were them.

After the way that he finished out the year, it's fair to say that the national perception of him has changed a tad.
That's a great point
 

BigJimEd

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I think that everyone in football operations without a legit NFL QB is telling his owner directly or indirectly that he was prepared to offer something better than pick 45 for Jimmy G but was shut down. I sure as shit would if I were them.

After the way that he finished out the year, it's fair to say that the national perception of him has changed a tad.
It's possible but there have been multiple reports going back to the beginning if the off-season that the Patriots didn't even listen. SF themselves said the Pats wouldn't listen previously and then the Pats called and the trade was done in 10 minutes.

I don't know what happened but I'm pretty confident the Pats didn't maximize their value in this instance.
 

Marciano490

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Clearly, Lynch was able to pull off the trade by first asking for Brady. That's something the other GM's weren't smart enough to figure out - make an unreasonable ask, then your next ask seems more palatable by comparison.
 

moondog80

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According to this, the Browns were willing to swap the #4 pick in the draft + , for JG, but could not get a convo started with the Pats. Two days later JG was off to SF for what may be the 40th pick.

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2018/01/how_cleveland_browns_were_froz.html#incart_2box_sports


On November 4, I wrote about how the Browns had last talked to the Patriots on October 28.

They couldn't even start a conversation. They were told Garoppolo wasn't available.


I know that Brown was willing to part with Houston's first-round pick and other goodies. He would have been willing to help Belichick shop around for a backup quarterback to help the trade work
.

So what was the motive for taking the substantially lower offer from San Francisco?
 

edmunddantes

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Because it was never real.

Michael Hurley covers this in his piece about the revisionist history of the Matt Cassel trade.

Go and look at Jimmy's stats at the time versus Cassel's at the time stats.

Whole article is worth reading.


Let’s just lay it down as simply as possible: Matt Cassel was a much, much more accomplished quarterback when he was traded than Jimmy Garoppolo was when he was traded. It’s not even remotely close.

We’ll eliminate Cassel’s first three seasons (39 total passes) and Garoppolo’s first two seasons (31 total passes) and look only at the two players’ tenures as starting quarterbacks for the New England Patriots.

Matt Cassel, 2008
15 starts, 10-5 record
327-for-516 (63.4%)
3,693 yards, 7.2 Y/A
21 TDs, 11 INTs
PFR Approximate Value: 17

Jimmy Garoppolo, 2016
2 starts, 2-0 record
43-for-63 (68.3%)
502 yards, 8.0 Y/A
4 TDs, 0 INTs
PFR Approximate Value: 2

Cassel also rushed 73 times for 270 yards and two touchdowns; Garoppolo rushed 10 times for six yards.

So, yes, in the sense that Cassel threw 453 more passes for roughly 3,200 more yards and 17 more touchdowns, the Cassel situation and Garoppolo situation is basically an apples-to-apples comparison.

(The win-loss numbers are a little skewed too; it should have Cassel at 11-5 and Garoppolo at 1-0. Or, maybe 1.5-0. Cassel played more than three quarters in the ’08 season opener but doesn’t get credit for the win, while Garoppolo played less two quarters in Week 2 of 2016 but gets credited with the win. Stats!)

And while we’re all living in the wake of the Jimmy G Phenomenon that was the end of the 2017 season, the fact is the kid threw six touchdowns and five interceptions in his five starts this year. We’ve seen better flashes from the likes of Nick Foles, Matt Flynn, Tim Tebow, Brock Osweiler, Robert Griffin, Derek Anderson and Cassel. None of them went on to have great careers. Most of them didn’t even have good careers. Most of them also got paid a lot of money, too.
 

Jimbodandy

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It's possible but there have been multiple reports going back to the beginning if the off-season that the Patriots didn't even listen. SF themselves said the Pats wouldn't listen previously and then the Pats called and the trade was done in 10 minutes.

I don't know what happened but I'm pretty confident the Pats didn't maximize their value in this instance.
According to Belichick himself, the Pats weren't interested in trading him in the offseason, so it doesn't matter if a hundred reports have offers of Fort Knox coming back in August.

When he decided to trade him, he had like 2 games experience and a handful of games left on his contract. Nobody knows whether BFB could have squeezed more out of someone else. But now there's a hell of a lot more game tape on him, and all of it good. So obviously, one wouldn't want to tell their boss that a first rounder was verboten.
 

moondog80

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Keep him out of the conference (Jimmy G could have easily forced his way out of CLE to a place like NYJ or Denver).
It's worth 15 slots in the first round (or whatever it was projected to be at the time) to keep an unproven QB out of the conference? They can't possibly have thought this. I think "accepting less to trade a player out of the division" is a silly notion in most cases anyway, but this one in particular seems really absurd.
 

Ed Hillel

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This sounds a lot like Polian’s “we had a first round grade on Brady.“ Funny how none of this leaked before Jimmy went on a tear. This seems a lot like their incompetent ownership trying to save face, especially as that first article says Jimmy wanted nothing to do with Cleveland. They’re giving up a top pick in the draft for a guy who would force his way out in a few months?
It's worth 15 slots in the first round (or whatever it was projected to be at the time) to keep an unproven QB out of the conference? They can't possibly have thought this. I think "accepting less to trade a player out of the division" is a silly notion in most cases anyway, but this one in particular seems really absurd.
So what’s your theory?
 
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bankshot1

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So what was the motive for taking the substantially lower offer from San Francisco?
Even if it was paramount to keep JG of of the AFC (which I think is BS-was BB really afraid of JG in 3 or 4 years?) they could have used the leverage of an auction and the Browns interest to boost the return from SF, an additional 3rd rounder, or next year's 2?

IMO they made very little effort to maximize JG trade value.

I can only guess what Machiavellan motives may have come into play in this Kraft-court powerplay.
 

Ed Hillel

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I can only guess what Machiavellan motives may have come into play in this Kraft-court powerplay.
So you’re suggesting Robert Kraft flat out lied to Peter King and now Belichick is playing along by pretending it’s business as usual and he’ll be back next year?

Also, how does such a “power play” lead to Belichick taking less that optimal value? Kraft ordered him to trade Jimmy for less than market? Or Bill did it to sabotage his own team? You really think that happened?

Oh, I just saw BB denied meeting Goodell, as well. Damn, just racking up those lies to cover up all that inner turmoil.

Oh number 2, BB just flatly denied Kraft asked him to trade anyone.
 

NortheasternPJ

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So you’re suggesting Robert Kraft flat out lied to Peter King and now Belichick is playing along by pretending it’s business as usual and he’ll be back next year?

Also, how does such a “power play” lead to Belichick taking less that optimal value? Kraft ordered him to trade Jimmy for less than market? Or Bill did it to sabotage his own team? You really think that happened?
No, BB knew that Kraft wouldn't approve, so he got a shitty deal to bring to Kraft, then if Kraft said no, he could go become the NYG coach, which is his dream. Plus he got to stick it to Brady to put Jimmy G in the gig that Brady has always wanted since he was a kid. Kraft shocked him when he let BB do the deal and stayed out of it. Totally backfired on BB.
 

BigJimEd

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According to Belichick himself, the Pats weren't interested in trading him in the offseason, so it doesn't matter if a hundred reports have offers of Fort Knox coming back in August.

When he decided to trade him, he had like 2 games experience and a handful of games left on his contract. Nobody knows whether BFB could have squeezed more out of someone else. But now there's a hell of a lot more game tape on him, and all of it good. So obviously, one wouldn't want to tell their boss that a first rounder was verboten.
right, but the question is why not even listen in the off-season and then turn around and trade him in 10 minutes att the deadline.
That to me is not maximizing value.

Or at least different perspective of value. Putting much more value on the security of Jimmy as a backup for half a season.

I just think it is strange that they didn't even entertain offers and then decide on the value.
What if someone was willing to offer Fort Knox?
 

moondog80

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This sounds a lot like Polian’s “we had a first round grade on Brady.“ Funny how none of this leaked before Jimmy went on a tear. This seems a lot like their incompetent ownership trying to save face, especially as that first article says Jimmy wanted nothing to do with Cleveland. They’re giving up a top pick in the draft for a guy who would force his way out in a few months?

So what’s your theory?

My theory is the Browns were not offering the Texans pick. Not at that time anyway.
 

bankshot1

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So you’re suggesting Robert Kraft flat out lied to Peter King and now Belichick is playing along by pretending it’s business as usual and he’ll be back next year?

Also, how does such a “power play” lead to Belichick taking less that optimal value? Kraft ordered him to trade Jimmy for less than market? Or Bill did it to sabotage his own team? You really think that happened?
The only thing that i thought that made sense was keeping both guys was not a workable solution.

The only Machiavellian powerplay is the very longshot possibility, BB walks and flips the bird to the Krafts and leaves him with no coach, no OC no DC, and a 40 YO QB. Takes a year off makes a gazillion bucks at yucking it up at CBS with Coach Cohwer, and then returns to coaching wherever he wants to.
 

JCizzle

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I know it doesn't match his MO, but is it at all possible BB just likes the kid and felt the Niners would be a good match for everyone involved? He obviously wasn't going to trade JG within the division, the Browns probably would have ruined him, and the Niners had a coach/GM in place that he seems to respect for whatever that's worth. The money involved made it impossible for the Pats to bring him back and unlikely that anyone would give up a top-5 pick for the luxury to pay JG real money.
 

Ed Hillel

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There are multiple reports. Lynch said they were shut down immediately in the off-season before getting to the offer stage
Sure, but that doesn’t preclude them from having spoken with others before the deadline. I find the timing of the Cleveland piece suspect, so it’s entirely possible he spoke to other teams and didn’t get a better offer. This was a QB with 6 quarters of experience and half a year left on his deal. I don’t for a second buy Cleveland was giving up the farm.

Not fielding offers in the offseason makes sense if BB gave significant value to letting the offseason and first 8 games play out before making the call on which QB to choose moving forward. Insurance has value, especially at such an important position.
 

Jimbodandy

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right, but the question is why not even listen in the off-season and then turn around and trade him in 10 minutes att the deadline.
That to me is not maximizing value.

Or at least different perspective of value. Putting much more value on the security of Jimmy as a backup for half a season.

I just think it is strange that they didn't even entertain offers and then decide on the value.
What if someone was willing to offer Fort Knox?
If anyone would be in a position to know that fort knox was not forthcoming, it would be BFB. And I trust him. 18 years of doing the right thing by the team is more predictive to me than some writers with unsourced opinion pieces, a name to make, and an apparent hard on for the organization. Bill probably didn't feel like wasting his time.

Insurance is great, even if you don't make a claim.

BfB said that they hoped to make it work enough to keep both. Maybe he overvalued his own persuasive skills on selling a bridge contract to JG. Or maybe dealing with a few cap casualties became less tenable, once he had more film on those guys and saw who he would have to cut in order to keep both.

I'm starting to think that I'm pissing into the wind on this one. Maybe all of New England is so traumatized still from four decades of dysfunction junction that their brains will latch into this stuff. Or maybe I just dont have enough of an imagination.
 

Greekca

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Decent film breakdown of Jimmy G for those interested. Interesting to know if the Patriots spent much time working on Jimmy's feet or decided not to mess with his mechanics too much.

 

H78

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It's worth 15 slots in the first round (or whatever it was projected to be at the time) to keep an unproven QB out of the conference? They can't possibly have thought this. I think "accepting less to trade a player out of the division" is a silly notion in most cases anyway, but this one in particular seems really absurd.
Not to mention Jimmy’s a FA and could easily end up back in the conference by choice.
 

BigJimEd

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Sure, but that doesn’t preclude them from having spoken with others before the deadline. I find the timing of the Cleveland piece suspect, so it’s entirely possible he spoke to other teams and didn’t get a better offer. This was a QB with 6 quarters of experience and half a year left on his deal. I don’t for a second buy Cleveland was giving up the farm.

Not fielding offers in the offseason makes sense if BB gave significant value to letting the offseason and first 8 games play out before making the call on which QB to choose moving forward. Insurance has value, especially at such an important position.
Yes, I was referring to the off-season in my post not before the trade deadline. Although at that point I think they probably valued Hoyer pretty highly.

And I would agree they valued the security of hacking him on the roster for the off-season and first half of the season.
I just find it a bit it if character that they reportedly didn't at least listen but the truth is probably in the details. Maybe they knew enough.

I don't believe for a second that they thought they could sign Jimmy to a bridge contract. That they need to know way before the draft. If they couldn't get a deal done then there is no reason to believe you can get it done later. You don't wait or push off those discussions.
 

Shelterdog

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If anyone would be in a position to know that fort knox was not forthcoming, it would be BFB. And I trust him. 18 years of doing the right thing by the team is more predictive to me than some writers with unsourced opinion pieces, a name to make, and an apparent hard on for the organization. Bill probably didn't feel like wasting his time.

Insurance is great, even if you don't make a claim.

BfB said that they hoped to make it work enough to keep both. Maybe he overvalued his own persuasive skills on selling a bridge contract to JG. Or maybe dealing with a few cap casualties became less tenable, once he had more film on those guys and saw who he would have to cut in order to keep both.

I'm starting to think that I'm pissing into the wind on this one. Maybe all of New England is so traumatized still from four decades of dysfunction junction that their brains will latch into this stuff. Or maybe I just dont have enough of an imagination.
Two other small points.

*This season has shown you that, absent injury, Brady is going to be a stong contender for a starting job in September 2019. That means you'd have to either have two years of franchised Jimmy + Brady or cut Brady while he can still play some. Maybe before the season you could have hoped that 2018 would be the end but that's increasingly unliklely.

*Having a pissed off Jimmy for a couple of years can't be great for the locker room.
 

Captaincoop

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Thinking back on this nonsense, there's one thing I want to know: why would Jimmy G ever think it was a good idea to hire Brady's agent?

By so doing, he guaranteed that he could not communicate in confidence with the Pats. Seems like a needless conflict of interest.
 

Harry Hooper

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Thinking back on this nonsense, there's one thing I want to know: why would Jimmy G ever think it was a good idea to hire Brady's agent?

By so doing, he guaranteed that he could not communicate in confidence with the Pats. Seems like a needless conflict of interest.
Why would JimmyG think the Pats were going to draft him?
 
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