Hip Hop - The Isaiah Injury Thread

JCizzle

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Well, Harden is worth three Brinks trucks. But even if you disagree, it's sorta irrelevant to the discussion of whether IT is worth one Brinks truck.

As for Horford and Heyward - you sort of have a point, but the context matters. Last season's huge increase in the cap is why Horford got a Brinks truck. Heyward is considered by most NBA wonks as a better all-around player than IT. He's also younger, and doesn't have a bad hip.
It all depends on perspective I guess. I personally think IT will be able to look himself in the mirror and say with a straight face that 3/100 is a brinks truck. I think the Celtics will be willing to do something like that and he'll be in green for awhile. It's probably not a coincidence that we've gotten our two biggest FA signings in franchise history since he's been here, so for a half superstar he's done a helluva lot for this franchise's perception around the league. I don't think either Horford or Hayward is in green without IT on the team. Not bad for a half superstar.
 

soxfan121

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It all depends on perspective I guess. I personally think IT will be able to look himself in the mirror and say with a straight face that 3/100 is a brinks truck. I think the Celtics will be willing to do something like that and he'll be in green for awhile. It's probably not a coincidence that we've gotten our two biggest FA signings in franchise history since he's been here, so for a half superstar he's done a helluva lot for this franchise's perception around the league. I don't think either Horford or Hayward is in green without IT on the team. Not bad for a half superstar.
First, half-a-superstar is not a pejorative, or diss, of IT. But I can understand if it rubs you the wrong way. It is, I think, a fair way to describe what he brings to the court, as well as an apt description of his size.

Second, I concur that IT has been an admirable representative of the team, especially in recruiting Horford, and that has been a real boon to the club. However, the biggest reason Horford and Heyward are Celtics is because of money. Would they be here without IT? I agree is doubtful, but I don't think that is at all a factor in considering what he should be paid going forward.

Third, I don't think anyone - myself included - is ungrateful for IT's contributions on and off the court these last couple years. But that doesn't mean giving him whatever he wants at the negotiating table. The fact is that he's going to be over 30 with a bad hip for most of the contract he does get. That matters a lot more than what he has done in the past. If he's willing to take 3 years, then SIGN ME UP. Terrific. That's ideal for the team. If he's not, and he wants "the max" - which is how I choose to interpret "Brinks truck" quotes - then, we have a problem. I'm interested in winning a title, and if IT can help with that, great. But more than 3 years, or a "max deal" is problematic for lots of reasons explained above.
 

JCizzle

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Agreed, five years is definitely a non starter for Danny and crew. If that's his brinks truck, he's going to have a hard time.
 

ugmo33

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Something I feel is always missed in these discussions about roster construction and max contracts is that there is that are, at minimum, 30 potential max contracts to be given out at any one time. People treat "max contract" as being reserved for the top ten guys in the NBA, but if you don't think you have a shot at one of those guys, then why not give it to someone like IT or Hayward. Who are you saving that money for?

It seems like in order to actually contend in today's NBA you have to either have Lebron, hit in the draft (warriors), or get an underrated young player (Kawhi, Harden, IT, and kind of injured Curry). So while the Celtics are waiting around to see if they have either of the latter two options, why not spend on some second-tier max players?
 

nighthob

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It all depends on perspective I guess. I personally think IT will be able to look himself in the mirror and say with a straight face that 3/100 is a brinks truck. I think the Celtics will be willing to do something like that and he'll be in green for awhile. It's probably not a coincidence that we've gotten our two biggest FA signings in franchise history since he's been here, so for a half superstar he's done a helluva lot for this franchise's perception around the league. I don't think either Horford or Hayward is in green without IT on the team. Not bad for a half superstar.
It won't be 3/100 because he doesn't have a decade's service time yet. He's technically limited to 30% of the cap, but unless they fixed the mechanism in the new CBA it works out to about 28% of the cap. So his three year max would be around Lowry's 3/90. And honestly I'm not even sure he can count on that given the defensive issues.
 

nighthob

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Something I feel is always missed in these discussions about roster construction and max contracts is that there is that are, at minimum, 30 potential max contracts to be given out at any one time. People treat "max contract" as being reserved for the top ten guys in the NBA, but if you don't think you have a shot at one of those guys, then why not give it to someone like IT or Hayward. Who are you saving that money for?
All the other players they need to re-sign over the next five years.
 

Spelunker

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All the other players they need to re-sign over the next five years.
Really just comes down to how much Wyc and co want to pay, right? They're going to be over the cap with re-signs anyway, so is it just a matter of how much tax they want to pay?
 

nighthob

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What if two of their four high lottery picks hit and are max guys? Do you really want those last two years and $70+ million for an ailing bench scorer putting a squeeze on the payroll? Because the Celtics aren't a charity and the owners won't be spending $200 million in payroll expenses (because eventually your luxury tax hits the 2 for 1 kicker as a serial violator).

While it would be nice if Boston's owners had Dan Gilbert money, as we can see sometimes Dan Gilbert money comes with, well, Dan Gilbert.
 

BigSoxFan

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What if two of their four high lottery picks hit and are max guys? Do you really want those last two years and $70+ million for an ailing bench scorer putting a squeeze on the payroll? Because the Celtics aren't a charity and the owners won't be spending $200 million in payroll expenses (because eventually your luxury tax hits the 2 for 1 kicker as a serial violator).

While it would be nice if Boston's owners had Dan Gilbert money, as we can see sometimes Dan Gilbert money comes with, well, Dan Gilbert.
Yup. I've seen an NBA team's balance sheet and P&L. Wyc and Co. just aren't going significantly over the luxury tax threshold. They may let it spike for a season or two if things really come together but these teams aren't flush with FCF. They all have lines of credit that they can tap into but most prefer not to do so for obvious reasons.
 

ugmo33

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What if two of their four high lottery picks hit and are max guys? Do you really want those last two years and $70+ million for an ailing bench scorer putting a squeeze on the payroll? Because the Celtics aren't a charity and the owners won't be spending $200 million in payroll expenses (because eventually your luxury tax hits the 2 for 1 kicker as a serial violator).

While it would be nice if Boston's owners had Dan Gilbert money, as we can see sometimes Dan Gilbert money comes with, well, Dan Gilbert.
Yes, I totally agree. Avoiding the albatross contract seems like another vital part of building a contender. But unless anyone thinks Smart id going to be a franchise player, then it seems like we have 2-3 years before Jaylen and the gang are due for their own Brinks truck. I guess Im basically saying IT at max for 3 years seems like a pretty safe bet
 

nighthob

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Right, no one is arguing against a three year deal at around market rates (which would probably be in the $80-$90 million range). It's the notion that you should be giving the 5'9" guy with the arthritic hip a five year $160+ million contract for his past accomplishments.
 

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I feel bad for IT; he keeps asking for a Brinks truck but he's more likely to get a high end Winnebago.

Based on the list above, his best chance at the kind of payday he's asking for is Dallas in a S&T that nets the Celtics a really, really, really big trade exception. Ainge is not dumb, and paying an offensive superstar/defensive sieve nearing 30 with a hip injury is all kinds of dumb.
Danny gave Jeff Green 4/40.

Sometimes, the vagaries of the NBA salary cap demand that you pay someone far more than he's worth. If I.T. returns from his injury and is close to the guy he was in 2016-17, this will be one of those times -- Danny probably won't give him the 5th year, but he'll likely match the 4-year near-max offer he'll indubitably fetch elsewhere with that kind of performance.
 

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This really has nothing to do with anything, but a friend of mine posted a selfie of himself and Isaiah at LaGuardia yesterday. He said that Isaiah and Danny Ainge were having lunch together.
 

HomeRunBaker

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This really has nothing to do with anything, but a friend of mine posted a selfie of himself and Isaiah at LaGuardia yesterday. He said that Isaiah and Danny Ainge were having lunch together.
Should it be concerning that immediately after lunch Ainge went out and signed FA PG Shane Larkin? This doesn't smell good to me as Ainge has never gone out of his way to add deep PG depth in the past. I'm skeptical that Isaiah is in good health anyway but signing Larkin gives me even greater pause as he wouldn't be necessary with Smart and Rozier as the backups.
 

the moops

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Should it be concerning that immediately after lunch Ainge went out and signed FA PG Shane Larkin? This doesn't smell good to me as Ainge has never gone out of his way to add deep PG depth in the past. I'm skeptical that Isaiah is in good health anyway but signing Larkin gives me even greater pause as he wouldn't be necessary with Smart and Rozier as the backups.
Me thinks you are reading waaaaayyyyy too much into this
 

HomeRunBaker

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Me thinks you are reading waaaaayyyyy too much into this
Maybe so but there is SOMETHING to read into as Ainge just signed a 16th guaranteed contract so he certainly knows a future move is planned.

Crowder for a future 2nd? Doing Larkin a solid by getting him a guaranteed deal knowing someone will want him (Larranaga was his college coach) although this seems awfully risky as an injury derails this plan. Ainge has a future move in mind so there is something to read into whatever he is thinking.
 

sox311

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That's what she said.
Maybe so but there is SOMETHING to read into as Ainge just signed a 16th guaranteed contract so he certainly knows a future move is planned.

Crowder for a future 2nd? Doing Larkin a solid by getting him a guaranteed deal knowing someone will want him (Larranaga was his college coach) although this seems awfully risky as an injury derails this plan. Ainge has a future move in mind so there is something to read into whatever he is thinking.

If Crowder is traded for a "future 2nd" Danny would take his own resignation to Wyc's desk and apologize as he hands it in and leaves to run for his son's political campaigns.

The deal for Larkin obviously wasn't "signed" right after lunch with IT. It takes a little longer than an afternoon to get something like that done. I for one welcome Barry's son to Boston, he is insurance.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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The idea that signing Shane Larken is a precursor to trading Jae Crowder and his bonkers-value contract for a 2nd round pick is one of the wildest things I've ever seen written about sports.
 

HomeRunBaker

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If Crowder is traded for a "future 2nd" Danny would take his own resignation to Wyc's desk and apologize as he hands it in and leaves to run for his son's political campaigns.

The deal for Larkin obviously wasn't "signed" right after lunch with IT. It takes a little longer than an afternoon to get something like that done. I for one welcome Barry's son to Boston, he is insurance.
He has lunch with Isaiah the day before the Larkin signing was announced. Discussions certainly didn't happen same day but the timing of the Isaiah lunch with the signing of a veteran PG doesn't raise any eyebrows?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Maybe so but there is SOMETHING to read into as Ainge just signed a 16th guaranteed contract so he certainly knows a future move is planned.
Isn't the future move as simple as cutting Theis or Larkin if they don't make the team out of training camp?

Larkin is probably insurance in case IT isn't ready for the season or if someone gets injured during training camp. After all, it's just $.
 

HomeRunBaker

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This article on celticsblog states that this is pretty standard for Ainge and the Cs. Bringing in extra players just for the summer and then eating the contracts

https://www.celticsblog.com/2017/7/20/16002916/rumor-celtics-sign-free-agent-shane-larkin-sources-nba-free-agency-guerschon-yabusele-daniel-theis
This really isn't true. Hunter was with the Celtics the prior season and his contract was eaten after having us in the system for over a year not over a week or two of training camp. The author in the celticsblog link failed to disclose that Jones' contract was acquired along with cash which presumably covered most or all of his contract in exchange for multiple 2nd round picks. Ainge has never by my recollection ever signed a guy to a guaranteed contract prior to training camp and then cutting him while eating a full year of salary.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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He has lunch with Isaiah the day before the Larkin signing was announced. Discussions certainly didn't happen same day but the timing of the Isaiah lunch with the signing of a veteran PG doesn't raise any eyebrows?
not to be repetitively redundant but wouldn't the logical take-away be that IT4 might need more time to get back to peak condition?

I mean we're what, three months to the start of the season and has he even started working out? Forsberg tweeted a picture of him shooting a jumper (see below) but maybe DA feels like he wants to give IT4 as much time as possible and doesn't want to be caught short-handed on Opening Day?
 

HomeRunBaker

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not to be repetitively redundant but wouldn't the logical take-away be that IT4 might need more time to get back to peak condition?

I mean we're what, three months to the start of the season and has he even started working out? Forsberg tweeted a picture of him shooting a jumper (see below) but maybe DA feels like he wants to give IT4 as much time as possible and doesn't want to be caught short-handed on Opening Day?
It's July and most of the leagues veterans who went deep into the playoffs haven't really began working out hard yet as this is still the first half of their offseason.

Of course this is all speculation but there was a unique timing to the lunch and Ainge signed his 16th guaranteed contract. I'm fairly certain Larkin will be on the team opening night......but there will be a player currently under contract who won't and it's unlikely to be any of the youngs imo. We'll know soon enough who the player is and what Isaiah's prognosis is.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Isn't the future move as simple as cutting Theis or Larkin if they don't make the team out of training camp?

Larkin is probably insurance in case IT isn't ready for the season or if someone gets injured during training camp. After all, it's just $.
It's much more than money when you are dealing with agents who are leaving millions on the table overseas to sign with you. Ainge has always seemingly had great relationships with many of them to where it's unlikely he'd act in this manner to jeopardize those relationships.

I also wonder how accurate the report is of Larkin leaving $6m on the table to return to the states. That doesn't really pass the smell test to me on its own......if it's real that most have been one awful experience Larkin had over there.

The idea that signing Shane Larken is a precursor to trading Jae Crowder and his bonkers-value contract for a 2nd round pick is one of the wildest things I've ever seen written about sports.
Ok, late 1st? Same idea.....him being moved for an open roster spot with the addition of Hayward and Tatum taking his starting 3 minutes and smallball 4 minutes.
 
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wade boggs chicken dinner

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It's much more than money when you are dealing with agents who are leaving millions on the table overseas to sign with you. Ainge has always seemingly had great relationships with many of them to where it's unlikely he'd act in this manner to jeopardize those relationships.

I also wonder how accurate the report is of Larkin leaving $6m on the table to return to the states. That doesn't really pass the smell test to me on its own......if it's real that most have been one awful experience Larkin had over there.
Understand completely on the relationships which is why I thought it was odd that DA would sign the 16th player coming from Europe but the easiest explanation is that DA is going to give him a chance to get back into the league (Larkin really wants to play in the NBA) and have guaranteed money on the table to make it worth his while.

As for the offer, yes it was real. As far as I can gather, Larkin was kind of like a restricted free agent and he received a 2/5.5 million euro offer from Barcelona, which was then matched by Baskonia.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Ainge is not going to throw away Crowder for nothing just so he can sign a journeyman PG.
This thread needs to be moved into a roster thread if a mod can do it.

Well he's throwing someone away, right? There is a current player on the roster who won't be here and from the sounds of Larkin's tweet he's not the one being cut (nor do I expect Ainge to treat a legit NBA player in this manner).

We have only speculated about the awkwardness of adding Hayward this summer following the crowd chanting his name along with Jae's public reaction. With Hayward taking all of Crowder's minutes at the 3 and Tatum possibly being capable of taking his smallball minutes at the 4.......what is Crowder's role? He seems like the proverbial square peg fitting into a round hole and sometimes moving that non-fitting piece from the room is the best course of action. His contract is great as a starting 3.....is it so great in the role he'll now be asked to fill? Not nearly.
 

nighthob

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Isn't the future move as simple as cutting Theis or Larkin if they don't make the team out of training camp?

Larkin is probably insurance in case IT isn't ready for the season or if someone gets injured during training camp. After all, it's just $.
There are some teams with playoff aspirations that still have cap space left (or at least the availability to create it) that Crowder can be dealt to. Other teams, like the Bulls, might like having a stabilizing vet around for their rebuild.

I tend to agree with HRB that Crowder is likely going to be dealt as a favor to him (for being a great soldier during the rebuild) and his agent. He really doesn't have much of a role on this team, while Boston used him as a smallball 4 last year, it was a defensive problem for them. As is bound to happen to a guy when his standing reach is average... for an NBA shooting guard.

Morris is already a longer version of Crowder that can be effective in the swing F role for Boston. Add in year 2 of Jaylen, Hayward's ability to give you some smallball 4 coverage, and the two rookie Fs and Crowder's minutes would be really squeezed here.

So I do expect a deal, just not the bucket of air that HRB is expecting. Teams attempted to poach Crowder when Boston was attempting to clear the space needed to make all their moves in July, but now there's no pressure since they can always just eat a minimum deal and be done with it. And as I said earlier, there's definitely a market.
 

DJnVa

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This thread needs to be moved into a roster thread if a mod can do it.

Well he's throwing someone away, right? There is a current player on the roster who won't be here and from the sounds of Larkin's tweet he's not the one being cut (nor do I expect Ainge to treat a legit NBA player in this manner).
Well, Larkin can tweet what he wants, but a guaranteed contract means you get paid, not that they keep you all season.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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There are some teams with playoff aspirations that still have cap space left (or at least the availability to create it) that Crowder can be dealt to. Other teams, like the Bulls, might like having a stabilizing vet around for their rebuild.

I tend to agree with HRB that Crowder is likely going to be dealt as a favor to him (for being a great soldier during the rebuild) and his agent. He really doesn't have much of a role on this team, while Boston used him as a smallball 4 last year, it was a defensive problem for them. As is bound to happen to a guy when his standing reach is average... for an NBA shooting guard.

Morris is already a longer version of Crowder that can be effective in the swing F role for Boston. Add in year 2 of Jaylen, Hayward's ability to give you some smallball 4 coverage, and the two rookie Fs and Crowder's minutes would be really squeezed here.

So I do expect a deal, just not the bucket of air that HRB is expecting. Teams attempted to poach Crowder when Boston was attempting to clear the space needed to make all their moves in July, but now there's no pressure since they can always just eat a minimum deal and be done with it. And as I said earlier, there's definitely a market.
This may be true but Ainge does not have to move what is a fairly valuable asset. It seems fairly well established that Ainge wants another elite or near elite piece for this team. The question is a matter of timing because he can wait and try to hit on a draft pick.

Alternatively he can bundle some combination of those and players should elite talent become available. Crowder is a valuable chip in that case even if his relatively low salary doesn't make the money work. While I may be mistaken I too cannot see Ainge just trading him away for a pick.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Larkin as a 3 year NBA player is going to get $1.051MM this year. I wonder if the plan is that he signs with the Cs, get to showcase his talents during training camp, and then if cut, gets to showcase his talents in the G League while still getting his guaranteed money from the Cs.

Plus as the son of Barry Larkin, maybe the money isn't as important to him as the shot to get back in the NBA (plus the possibility that he makes the Cs roster if someone gets hurt)?
I tend to agree with HRB that Crowder is likely going to be dealt as a favor to him (for being a great soldier during the rebuild) and his agent. He really doesn't have much of a role on this team, while Boston used him as a smallball 4 last year, it was a defensive problem for them. As is bound to happen to a guy when his standing reach is average... for an NBA shooting guard.
Crowder is signed up through 2019-20 at a very reasonable contract. That seems to me very valuable to the Cs as the team keeps handing out max or near-max contracts.
 

nighthob

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This may be true but Ainge does not have to move what is a fairly valuable asset. Ainge wants another elite or near elite piece for this team. The question is a matter of timing because he can wait and try to hit on a draft pick.
We're in agreement here, I was pointing out that Boston was getting lowball offers at the draft and directly after because teams were looking to poach from a squad that needed to clear extra cap space for their free agent plans. But you're right, now there's zero imperative to move him, so now teams that could really use him are going to have to make realistic offers.

I just expect a deal to be made as a favor to the player that's given Boston more than their money's worth and his agent. And mostly because he'll end up being a declining asset here due to the Morris/Tatum/Nader/Ojeleye squeeze (and the latter is basically a longer/bouncier Crowder).
 

HomeRunBaker

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Well, Larkin can tweet what he wants, but a guaranteed contract means you get paid, not that they keep you all season.
Sure but that isn't how GM's and agents engage in a working relationship. Larkin has had two years as an NBA rotation guard avg over 20 mpg and willingly opted out of his Nets contract forfeiting a guaranteed year.....it wasn't the type of situation where the team didn't want him or he was deemed a guy who couldn't play in the league. This isn't like a Phil Pressey who is signing on as a "favor" to his father who was super close with Ainge.......Larkin is a legit NBA veteran back-end rotation guy who signed a guaranteed one-year deal. Maybe Ainge will move him prior to training camp but I'd be beyond shocked if he's the guy cut. This isn't how the GM/agent relationship works nor how veteran players are handled. One other unique Larkin/Celtics connection is that when Asst Coach Jay Larranaga's father Jim took over at U of Miami it was Larkin who immediately requested a release from his DePaul commitment to sign and play for him at Miami.

The more I think about it the more I feel that Crowder is the guy who possibly initiated a trade request/demand that Ainge is more than willing to go along with since he's pretty much filled every role Crowder has with the team. I'll go back to his contract being great if his role is that of your starting 3 but one that loses all its value when you no longer find his skillset necessary. It just seems like a bad fit for all parties after these offseason moves.
 

the moops

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It's not as they have to move just Crowder though. They can package him with Yabusele, or Rozier, or Nader, or whoever and take back a different player. I can't imagine Crowder going for just a late 1st round pick. Doing one of your players a solid is good and all, but Ainge isn't going to sell that low just because of that.
 

DJnVa

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Sure but that isn't how GM's and agents engage in a working relationship.
He gave him a guaranteed contract. That's the "working relationship". If they cut him he's still paid whatever amount was enough to entice him to come back here.
 

Eddie Jurak

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He gave him a guaranteed contract. That's the "working relationship". If they cut him he's still paid whatever amount was enough to entice him to come back here.
Has to be the vet minimum, no? Since the Celtics are at the cap without him?

I'm not that surprised the Celtics would grab another point guard, regardless of IT's injury status. When you get down to it, the Celtics are very thin at the position. IT, Rozier, Smart. That's not a lot of depth. If IT isn't ready, you have only 2 primary ball handlers, neither of whom is a great fit at starting PG. same thing if they lose anyone else to injury. Last year they had Jackson as a 4th option, and maybe Bradley as an emergency guy.
 

NickEsasky

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It's great he doesn't need surgery but a labrum isn't going to heal on it's own. This will be a pain management thing for the rest of his career right?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Glob saying that IT4 is already shooting, riding the stationary bike, and doing pool work. So he must be targeting an on-schedule return.

As a side note, the article quotes DA as saying Shane Larkin's signing had nothing to do with IT4. “This in and of itself is just an opportunity to take a look at a really terrific player on a good contract for us to get a chance to see,” Ainge said. “Shane, we felt like, was one of the best players in Europe this year. He’s really improved his playmaking abilities and we thought he had a terrific year. He has great speed and he’s a terrific shooter. We think he’s a better shooter than his numbers indicate. So we just really like his speed and his ability to get into the paint.”
 

bakahump

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Hes the IT4 Replacement for AFTER NEXT Year.

Small, Fast good shooter and able to get to the paint.

We are on to the next undersized scorer.
 

JCizzle

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The one year guaranteed contract guy that won't even be on the roster by the start of the year is going to do a GREAT job replacing IT4. ;)
 

southshoresoxfan

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Maybe so but there is SOMETHING to read into as Ainge just signed a 16th guaranteed contract so he certainly knows a future move is planned.

Crowder for a future 2nd? Doing Larkin a solid by getting him a guaranteed deal knowing someone will want him (Larranaga was his college coach) although this seems awfully risky as an injury derails this plan. Ainge has a future move in mind so there is something to read into whatever he is thinking.
I'll double or nothing that Hayward signing w the Celtics mainly because of Brad thing with you if you think Larkin = Crowder traded for a pick.
 

sezwho

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Not to be pedantic, but "he" said "he should be ready". Unless I'm missing something, he's not a doctor. I'm not exactly counting those chickens.
Yeah, color me concerned as well. I believe our resident experts have indicated this type of injury is likely to be one which is 'managed' for his career, and the list posted by @WadeBoggsChickenDinner is pretty ominous. I didn't notice the first time, but I see that two names on the list appear twice. Yuck.

That said, and there was discussion over the last months here about a potential change in training staff after the team's run on hip problems, I'm hoping that the new medical team can make some positive adjustment.
 

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Apr 23, 2010
1,104
If I were a betting man, I'd say IT will not be a max guy. Given the nature of this injury, I think we just saw his max # of minutes / effectiveness. I'd actually prefer he missed like a 1/4 of the season, cause then he'd be more likely to make it through the playoffs. If he really comes back like he says, then Brad will probably be keeping him to under 30 MPG to get him through the season, and that would greatly reduce his FA value.