Hip Hop - The Isaiah Injury Thread

HomeRunBaker

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I think one way you could view how the Celts view IT is that they really have no other real PG on the roster. Avery Bradley is a great player to have on your roster until he becomes too expensive. You don't pay high end money for a defensive oriented 2 guard imo.

Edit: Smart and Rozier are listed as PGs but that seems more in name only rather than true PGs
Here is another angle. Ainge has never really valued the PG position in building a championship team. When he acquired KG and Allen to pair with Pierce he went to bat with a defacto PG in Rondo who at that time had the job of defending and bring the ball up over halfcourt, initiate the offense through Pierce or KG, then stay out of the way on the weakside. Ainge also never acquired that backup PG for years instead making due with House and partial years of Cassell and Marbury all on the cheap.

With the addition of Hayward the offense doesn't necessarily need a traditional PG to function. I can see Smart performing in a similar role as Rondo early in his career if Isaiah wasn't here moving forward.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Here is another angle. Ainge has never really valued the PG position in building a championship team. When he acquired KG and Allen to pair with Pierce he went to bat with a defacto PG in Rondo who at that time had the job of defending and bring the ball up over halfcourt, initiate the offense through Pierce or KG, then stay out of the way on the weakside. Ainge also never acquired that backup PG for years instead making due with House and partial years of Cassell and Marbury all on the cheap.

With the addition of Hayward the offense doesn't necessarily need a traditional PG to function. I can see Smart performing in a similar role as Rondo early in his career if Isaiah wasn't here moving forward.
Horford and Hayward make having a traditional PG far less of a priority. Hopefully Rozier takes another step forward too because I like him at point more than Smart but he isn't there yet.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Horford and Hayward make having a traditional PG far less of a priority. Hopefully Rozier takes another step forward too because I like him at point more than Smart but he isn't there yet.
Yeah, Rozier is another who can fill those minutes as the offense is motion and/or going to run through Hayward or Horford. The more and more I think through this the more I see Isaiah elsewhere in the coming years.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Yeah, Rozier is another who can fill those minutes as the offense is motion and/or going to run through Hayward or Horford. The more and more I think through this the more I see Isaiah elsewhere in the coming years.
If so, let's hope Rozier learns to run the break. For all his athleticism and speed, he is not someone you want handling the ball on the fast break. An unhappy throwback to the awful Celtics fast breaks of the Antoine Walker era.
 

Kid T

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Which teams will have the cap space (and desire) to sign IT to anything close to his self-perceived value? Would IT really turn his back on a 2 year deal with a team option for a 3rd at decent money ($25 mil+/yr)? It may not be a max deal, but it would be more money than he's earned to date
 

lars10

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Which teams will have the cap space (and desire) to sign IT to anything close to his self-perceived value? Would IT really turn his back on a 2 year deal with a team option for a 3rd at decent money ($25 mil+/yr)? It may not be a max deal, but it would be more money than he's earned to date
I think two additional factors are there:
1. What will he look like after coming back from his injury? Will it become recurring given the way he drives to the basket?
2. Will more teams exploit his defensive shortcomings? It's ok if you have elite defenders on the court behind IT to cover for his inability to defend, but does that take away from him potentially getting a Max deal? Also, can you win a championship with him as one of your defenders? Especially in close games in the playoffs when you need him to score, but also need to get stops?
 

MarkBT

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Based on http://www.spotrac.com/nba/cap/2018/, here's some teams that I think could be positioned for cap space to participate in the market for Thomas:

Atlanta
Chicago
Brooklyn
Indiana
Phoenix
Dallas
LAL
Orlando​

The question is, which of these teams would have interest in Thomas at anything close to max $$?
  • Given recent trades/picks, I'd cross Chicago, Dallas, LAL, Brooklyn off the list.
  • Atlanta is in full on bottom out / rebuild mode, with a 25 y/o PG they committed $$ to.
  • Phoenix & Indiana would make the most sense, but they'll be preparing a max offers for Booker and Turner respectively, and staring at top 10 picks. Is Thomas a good match to build around their young stars?
  • Who knows what Orlando could be up to. They've got modest (at best) youngish talent at each position but no clear indicator which to commit to and build around
Am I missing an teams or misreading the teams above?
 

soxfan121

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I feel bad for IT; he keeps asking for a Brinks truck but he's more likely to get a high end Winnebago.

Based on the list above, his best chance at the kind of payday he's asking for is Dallas in a S&T that nets the Celtics a really, really, really big trade exception. Ainge is not dumb, and paying an offensive superstar/defensive sieve nearing 30 with a hip injury is all kinds of dumb.
 

RedOctober3829

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I feel bad for IT; he keeps asking for a Brinks truck but he's more likely to get a high end Winnebago.

Based on the list above, his best chance at the kind of payday he's asking for is Dallas in a S&T that nets the Celtics a really, really, really big trade exception. Ainge is not dumb, and paying an offensive superstar/defensive sieve nearing 30 with a hip injury is all kinds of dumb.
If he does this then he better have a player lined up to come in and replacing the 25 ppg IT will be leaving behind.
 

smastroyin

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It's fun to look ahead, but I do think that many many things can change in the course of a year, especially in the NBA.

We really need to see what IT looks like this year before we can speculate. And we need to see what happens with other PGs around the league.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Based on the list above, his best chance at the kind of payday he's asking for is Dallas in a S&T that nets the Celtics a really, really, really big trade exception. Ainge is not dumb, and paying an offensive superstar/defensive sieve nearing 30 with a hip injury is all kinds of dumb.
Why Dallas? They just drafted DSJ and they are not taking the ball out of his hands.

IND seems like the most likely bet to me, particularly since they don't want to bottom out.

But I suspect that IT4 isn't going to be happy with his market next year.
 

Twilight

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If he does this then he better have a player lined up to come in and replacing the 25 ppg IT will be leaving behind.
Presuming his replacement is significantly better defensively, you can subtract from that 25 PPG the additional amount we think his replacement will prevent the other team from scoring. And with Haywood scoring more than his replacement, the gap narrows even further. Of course, we want to improve, not just tread water, so I take your point overall.
 

RedOctober3829

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Presuming his replacement is significantly better defensively, you can subtract from that 25 PPG the additional amount we think his replacement will prevent the other team from scoring. And with Haywood scoring more than his replacement, the gap narrows even further. Of course, we want to improve, not just tread water, so I take your point overall.
With no IT or a replacement with lesser offensive skill, Hayward's production would go down to increased double teams because he'd be the only real scoring threat. Unless you think Tatum is ready to be a #2 guy in only year 2 which is a real stretch.
 

ALiveH

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The only scenario where IT gets the max (or something very close to it) is if he shows no ill effects from the injury, makes it through the whole season + playoffs, and the team makes it to the Finals. At that point mgmt will be motivated to do everything they can to keep the band together. Even then the # of years would be an issue.

More likely, he is not as good as he was this year and/or he misses significant time. In that case, he'll be disappointed with his market and come back for something less, maybe much less (or Cs let him go).
 

soxfan121

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If he does this then he better have a player lined up to come in and replacing the 25 ppg IT will be leaving behind.
Yep, it would absolutely be an issue. Though I think you overstate it a bit. Suppose they allow IT to walk away for free (which, in itself, would be hella dumb) - they would then replace him with someone internally: let's assume Terry Rozier. And Rozier would then score some amount of PPG - let's say 12.5 because it's half and sort of plausible. Therefore, the Celtics would need to "replace" 12.5 PPG, not 25.

Further, let's suppose that Tatum and Brown both improve as players as they enter their 20s and add a few PPG to their baseline (read: rookie) numbers. Now, we're talking about replacing 8 or 9 PPG. And finally, let's assume Heyward is as advertised, and he improves slightly on his career numbers because he's playing in a faster-paced offense with more freedom to do what he can do. Now, we're down to 5 PPG?

So... yeah. They should probably get another good player. That doesn't even address the potential defensive improvement @Twilight addresses, so is it 5 PPG? Or 3? Or... none?

Why Dallas? They just drafted DSJ and they are not taking the ball out of his hands.

IND seems like the most likely bet to me, particularly since they don't want to bottom out.

But I suspect that IT4 isn't going to be happy with his market next year.
Why Dallas? Because Mark Cuban loves basketball and is very rich. Beyond that... who knows? Indiana might be a more reasonable guess. Whomever it is, some other team is more likely to "back up the Brinks truck" than the Celtics.

I agree emphatically with your last point: IT is going to be very salty about the lack of a Brinks truck, either from the Celtics or on the open market. Yeah, everyone gets paid in the NBA and IT is a fantastically talented offensive player. Who is also going to be on the wrong side of 30 for most of his next contract. And has a bad hip. And cannot hope to approach league-average defensively. He's the very rich man's Eddie House. And no one backed up a Brinks truck for House.
 

Twilight

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With no IT or a replacement with lesser offensive skill, Hayward's production would go down to increased double teams because he'd be the only real scoring threat. Unless you think Tatum is ready to be a #2 guy in only year 2 which is a real stretch.
No, I don't, so that's a fair point. I guess I'm hoping his replacement is enough of a threat to mitigate double teams. Maybe Tatum can be that in a few years, but not '18-'19.

Or maybe if IT stays but has help on the offensive end in Hayward, could he get just a little better on defense? Maybe he's too short to improve much there, but we haven't seen him playing with another legitimate scorer. All of this presumes his excellent health, of course, which is a pretty big assumption.

I'm not 100% sure they need to jettison IT to win, but there are certainly negatives Danny/Brad will have to work around.
 

soxfan121

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I'm not 100% sure they need to jettison IT to win
To win 53 games and make the Conference Finals? I'm pretty sure IT can do that.

To win an NBA Championship? That's much harder. I loved, loved, loved, loved Allen Iverson. And, no offense to IT, but he ain't The Answer. There aren't a lot of sub 6'2" guys in the modern NBA who've been one of the three best players on a title winner.
 

Fishy1

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Offensive production at point guard is one of the easiest things to replace in the NBA, and points, of all the things to replace, are the easiest. Volume isolation scoring like Isaiah provides? Not so much: as Ainge has said again and again, having guys who can bring it in the last four minutes of a game is super valuable.

But Isaiah isn't going to be the volume isolation scorer that he is now four years from now, when we'll need that ISO scoring. I agree with smastroyin that we need to see what Isaiah looks like in a year and what the league looks like in a year, and see what the team looks like a year from now, all before we think about seeing if he's up for an extension -- but, to my mind, the max is out of the question. I am terrified of the prospect of watching a short point guard who relies on his quickness going into his thirties with a degenerative hip condition try to score around the cup, nevermind play defense. I love Isaiah, but this team can't survive defensively and play the switchy D it wants to with him out there.

See where Tatum, Brown, Smart and Rozier are in a year. I'm hopeful yet that Rozier will learn how to finish around the rim, and Smart might be a good shooter yet.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Yep, it would absolutely be an issue. Though I think you overstate it a bit. Suppose they allow IT to walk away for free (which, in itself, would be hella dumb) - they would then replace him with someone internally: let's assume Terry Rozier. And Rozier would then score some amount of PPG - let's say 12.5 because it's half and sort of plausible. Therefore, the Celtics would need to "replace" 12.5 PPG, not 25.
This isn't necessarily true as the Celtics gave up 10 PPG LESS "per 48 min" when Isaiah was off the floor this past season. You only have to replace the difference between Isaiah's offense and what he gives up defensively......which is much more narrow than simply saying we need to replace his offense. We can replace much of his offense simply by providing a better defensive replacement.

He's the very rich man's Eddie House. And no one backed up a Brinks truck for House.
Ouch I don't like this comp at all. Eddie House was a one-dimensional shooter who had no other NBA skill. Isaiah can initiate an offense, run an effective pick-n-roll, and break down a defense off the dribble......House could do none of those things. I would use the "poor mans" label on a player with similar skill sets that are performed at a lesser level. House had none of Isaiah's skills other than shooting.
 

RedOctober3829

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This isn't necessarily true as the Celtics gave up 10 PPG LESS "per 48 min" when Isaiah was off the floor this past season. You only have to replace the difference between Isaiah's offense and what he gives up defensively......which is much more narrow than simply saying we need to replace his offense. We can replace much of his offense simply by providing a better defensive replacement.
Are you accounting for Hayward's scoring to go down considering he wouldn't have IT on the floor as a 2nd scoring threat? It's a complex issue to properly replace IT between the immense offense he gives, his defensive struggles, and the impact the offense would take if he's off the floor. They'll need to get another big-time scorer to replace IT if they want to make the team better. That player by default will be better defensively and he'll provide around the same on offense if he's the same caliber scorer as IT.
 

JCizzle

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With the Celtics capped out, I don't really see an alternative to resigning IT at this point. We all knew this was our last year to make a splash in FA. Are we debating this to save Wyc some money in luxury tax? What does paying IT preclude us from doing? I imagine they'll offer him something on three years similar to the Lowry deal.
 

soxfan121

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Ouch I don't like this comp at all. Eddie House was a one-dimensional shooter who had no other NBA skill. Isaiah can initiate an offense, run an effective pick-n-roll, and break down a defense off the dribble......House could do none of those things. I would use the "poor mans" label on a player with similar skill sets that are performed at a lesser level. House had none of Isaiah's skills other than shooting.
Fair enough; would it be better to say that Isaiah Thomas is a poor man's Isiah Thomas? ;-) Or is IT4 a very poor man's Iverson?

Regardless, the point is that teams aren't backing up the Brinks truck for half-a-superstar. And IT4 is half-a-superstar; he is one of the NBA's best players on the offensive end of the floor and is, at best, below-average on the defensive end.

With the Celtics capped out, I don't really see an alternative to resigning IT at this point. We all knew this was our last year to make a splash in FA. Are we debating this to save Wyc some money in luxury tax? What does paying IT preclude us from doing? I imagine they'll offer him something on three years similar to the Lowry deal.
Sign and trade. Danny gets more assets, IT gets his Brinks truck (elsewhere).

Paying Thomas locks the Celtics into the Thomas-Horford-Heyward core through 2020 (?) and nobody seems to think that group is good enough to win a title. So signing Thomas would be limiting the team's ceiling (admittedly, the ECF is a pretty high ceiling).
 

JCizzle

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Fair enough; would it be better to say that Isaiah Thomas is a poor man's Isiah Thomas? ;-) Or is IT4 a very poor man's Iverson?

Regardless, the point is that teams aren't backing up the Brinks truck for half-a-superstar. And IT4 is half-a-superstar; he is one of the NBA's best players on the offensive end of the floor and is, at best, below-average on the defensive end.



Sign and trade. Danny gets more assets, IT gets his Brinks truck (elsewhere).

Paying Thomas locks the Celtics into the Thomas-Horford-Heyward core through 2020 (?) and nobody seems to think that group is good enough to win a title. So signing Thomas would be limiting the team's ceiling (admittedly, the ECF is a pretty high ceiling).
I'll raise my hand and suggest that this core might be good enough to win a title. I don't think it's likely, but it's also not out of the question. By next year, the Celtics could be the clear cut best team in the East if LeBron leaves. During that same window, you have Jaylen entering year 3 - the season during which many players begin to hit their stride and Tatum (who appears to be much closer to NBA ready than Brown) will be in year two and potentially blossoming himself. I think we'll see another step from Hayward next year in a more open offense. We'll need player development luck, but the path is there in my eyes. As we saw the Cavs pull off last year, sometimes weird shit happens in the finals if you can just get there.

I don't really see it as the IT- Horford- Hayward core, I see it as that plus Brown-Tatum-2018 pick (or 2) in addition to those guys. That's a lot of raw talent added on top of existing talent, but I'm admittedly an optimist when it comes to these prospects.
 
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HomeRunBaker

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With the Celtics capped out, I don't really see an alternative to resigning IT at this point. We all knew this was our last year to make a splash in FA. Are we debating this to save Wyc some money in luxury tax? What does paying IT preclude us from doing? I imagine they'll offer him something on three years similar to the Lowry deal.
It precludes us from trading him for a player on a longer contract similar to what Ainge did with the Morris/Bradley swap as an alternative to losing him for nothing......which I don't expect Ainge do to.
 

soxfan121

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I'll raise my hand and suggest that this core might be good enough to win a title. I don't think it's likely, but it's also not out of the question. By next year, the Celtics could be the clear cut best team in the East if LeBron leaves. During that same window, you have Jaylen entering year 3 - the season during which many players begin to hit their stride and Tatum (who appears to be much closer to NBA ready than Brown) will be in year two and potentially blossoming himself. I think we'll see another step from Hayward next year in a more open offense. We'll need player development luck, but the path is there in my eyes. As we saw the Cavs pull off last year, sometimes weird shit happens in the finals if you can just get there.

I don't really see it as the IT- Horford- Hayward core, I see it as that plus Brown-Tatum-2018 pick (or 2) in addition to those guys. That's a lot of raw talent added on top of existing talent, but I'm admittedly an optimist when it comes to these prospects.
There aren't a lot of sub 6'2" guys in the modern NBA who've been one of the three best players on a title winner.
I'll turn that into a question: what NBA teams have won a title with a sub-6'2" player as part of their "big 3"?

That's aside from the fact that no credible NBA wonk thinks IT-Horford-Heyward is good enough to win a title. If the Celtics do somehow get by the Cavs this year, or LeBron vacates in 18-19, and the Celtics make it to the Finals, they are getting SMOKED by the Warriors. There's no shame in that; the Warriors might be the best collection of in-their-prime talents since the 1960s Celtics.
 

BigSoxFan

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I'll turn that into a question: what NBA teams have won a title with a sub-6'2" player as part of their "big 3"?

That's aside from the fact that no credible NBA wonk thinks IT-Horford-Heyward is good enough to win a title. If the Celtics do somehow get by the Cavs this year, or LeBron vacates in 18-19, and the Celtics make it to the Finals, they are getting SMOKED by the Warriors. There's no shame in that; the Warriors might be the best collection of in-their-prime talents since the 1960s Celtics.
Spurs - Tony Parker
Pistons - Isiah Thomas
 

Spelunker

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I'll turn that into a question: what NBA teams have won a title with a sub-6'2" player as part of their "big 3"?

That's aside from the fact that no credible NBA wonk thinks IT-Horford-Heyward is good enough to win a title. If the Celtics do somehow get by the Cavs this year, or LeBron vacates in 18-19, and the Celtics make it to the Finals, they are getting SMOKED by the Warriors. There's no shame in that; the Warriors might be the best collection of in-their-prime talents since the 1960s Celtics.
Uhmm, you could argue the 81 Celtics (not 'big 3' but very important starter).

Edit: I think the previously mentioned 538 article did a good job laying out that IT4 (at least last year's edition) could certainly be one of the three best players on a championship caliber team. You just need someone else of Heyward (likely better) quality. Whether that player will come (through maturity or next year's draft) quickly enough for IT to be one of the top-3 is the question.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/do-the-celtics-have-enough-star-power-to-win-a-title-not-yet/
 
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pokey_reese

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Uhmm, you could argue the 81 Celtics (not 'big 3' but very important starter).

Edit: I think the previously mentioned 538 article did a good job laying out that IT4 (at least last year's edition) could certainly be one of the three best players on a championship caliber team. You just need someone else of Heyward (likely better) quality. Whether that player will come (through maturity or next year's draft) quickly enough for IT to be one of the top-3 is the question.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/do-the-celtics-have-enough-star-power-to-win-a-title-not-yet/
I think that they key part of that article is that IT4 is good enough to be the third-best player (rather than just one of three) on a championship caliber team, so you need at least two guys substantially better than him, not just one.
 

Spelunker

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I think that they key part of that article is that IT4 is good enough to be the third-best player (rather than just one of three) on a championship caliber team, so you need at least two guys substantially better than him, not just one.
Yup: another person of Heyward (or likely better) quality :)
 

nighthob

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Paying Thomas locks the Celtics into the Thomas-Horford-Heyward core through 2020 (?) and nobody seems to think that group is good enough to win a title. So signing Thomas would be limiting the team's ceiling (admittedly, the ECF is a pretty high ceiling).
The problem isn't 2019-2021, I'm sure the Celtics would be fine with Lil' Zeke over that timeline. The problem is years four and five of the deal which would be an albatross and at a point where Boston would be legitimately one player away from the top of the NBA, and unable to make the move because of the Lil' Zeke contract.

I think the previously mentioned 538 article did a good job laying out that IT4 (at least last year's edition) could certainly be one of the three best players on a championship caliber team. You just need someone else of Heyward (likely better) quality. Whether that player will come (through maturity or next year's draft) quickly enough for IT to be one of the top-3 is the question.
It's tough when you have to play the worst defensive players in the NBA during crunchtime. That's a pretty big hurdle to overcome at the point of the game where teams just keep getting switches until they get their perimeter scorer on to Lil' Zeke.

There's also very little chance of Boston winning a title across the next three seasons (even after Klay Thompson leaves Golden State the Curry/Durant Warriors are going to be favorites until Durant starts breaking down) and therefore pretty well no chance of Lil' Zeke playing a key role on a title winner unless the Warriors lose Curry for an extended period and trade for Thomas as a replacement.

And that other guy would need to be someone considerably better than Hayward, as well, as four guys in the 20-30 range aren't beating a team with two top five guys with two more top 20 guys as sidekicks. Boston continues to stock up for the 2021-2025 time frame and the Horford/Hayward/Thomas troika is a fantastic bridge to that era.
 

soxfan121

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Spurs - Tony Parker
Pistons - Isiah Thomas
Thanks! That is actually very helpful.

Parker played with (arguably) one of the five or ten best players of all time. The original Thomas was the best player on those teams, and was an incredibly effective player surrounded by an exceptionally deep supporting cast. I don't think anyone who's watched both Thomases would say IT4 is "better" than Original Zeke. (FWIW, I hated, hated, hated OZ - but dude was a killer on the court. The smiling little asshole could really play.)

The problem isn't 2019-2021, I'm sure the Celtics would be fine with Lil' Zeke over that timeline. The problem is years four and five of the deal which would be an albatross and at a point where Boston would be legitimately one player away from the top of the NBA, and unable to make the move because of the Lil' Zeke contract.
Thanks for this - a really good clarification. The ceiling in the next three seasons isn't higher or lower with or without IT4; the ceiling in 21-forward is limited by an aging IT4.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The problem isn't 2019-2021, I'm sure the Celtics would be fine with Lil' Zeke over that timeline. The problem is years four and five of the deal which would be an albatross and at a point where Boston would be legitimately one player away from the top of the NBA, and unable to make the move because of the Lil' Zeke contract.
True. This is why you can make a case to max him over these next 3 years in a Lowry-like contract which doesn't hurt us long term.....and may allow for his next deal to be structured differently as he transitions into a 3rd guard role off the bench. If he isn't amenable to 3-years then there are problems with the length of the deal that could force him out of town sooner.
 

Devizier

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I'll turn that into a question: what NBA teams have won a title with a sub-6'2" player as part of their "big 3"?
Stockton and Kevin Johnson came close, too. This exercise is dumb. A more direct way to ask this question is, "How many teams have won an NBA title without a top 10 all-time player?"
 

DJnVa

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Stockton and Kevin Johnson came close, too. This exercise is dumb. A more direct way to ask this question is, "How many teams have won an NBA title without a top 10 all-time player?"
Lots?
 

snowmanny

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How many have won without an MVP?

75 Warriors (although Barry should have won)
79 Sonics
Pistons x 3

Is that it?

(Edit: 32 players have been MVP since 1956).
 
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DJnVa

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Depending on how you feel about Kobe, hardly any since the 1970s.
Durant is a Top 10 all-time player? Curry from 2 years ago? Nowitzki? Wade? Pierce? Garnett? I mean, I'm up to 6 and haven't gotten to Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Shaq, Thomas, Robinson, Duncan, Hakeem, Jordan, Dr. J...

They can't all be Top 10 all-time
 

HomeRunBaker

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Stockton and Kevin Johnson came close, too. This exercise is dumb. A more direct way to ask this question is, "How many teams have won an NBA title without a top 10 all-time player?"
It isn't dumb if you include, "who also cannot compete defensively at his position." Now the list is much smaller........like all by his Isaiah self.

We aren't talking about Kyrie-level defense here or even Harden-level.....each of who can physically matchup with their counterpart. When Isaiah is on the floor in the 4th quarter of playoff games not only is he isolated but teams are running switches to get their best scoring wing in iso against him. Nothing is impossible but I find it hard to believe any Celtics team can overcome having Isaiah on the floor against elite teams on their way to winning a championship.
 

ishmael

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Sep 3, 2006
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True. This is why you can make a case to max him over these next 3 years in a Lowry-like contract which doesn't hurt us long term.....and may allow for his next deal to be structured differently as he transitions into a 3rd guard role off the bench. If he isn't amenable to 3-years then there are problems with the length of the deal that could force him out of town sooner.
Assuming the cap stays flat or goes up slightly, this seems like the best path forward. The contract that Lowry received (roughly $100M over three years) could legitimately qualify as "a Brinks Truck". In year 1 he earns ~$30.5M (30% of the salary cap), which for IT would be more than he has made in his entire NBA career to date...
 

BigChara33

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May 2, 2017
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IT has "Bird" Rights correct? As in we can be GSW for half a second and sign him for stupid money above the fake cap?
 

smastroyin

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I can get to 10 guys going back to 1980, leaving out the Sixers (but they had Dr. J and Moses Malone), 3 Pistons win, and the Dallas win.

But, the 10 guys means that while I include Kareem I leave out Magic. I include Jordan but no Pippen, and Curry over Durant.

Kareem (80, 85, 87, 88)
Bird (81, 84, 86)
Jordan (91, 92, 93, 96, 97, 98)
Olajuwon (94, 95)
Duncan (99, 03, 05, 07, 14)
Shaq (00, 01, 02, 05)
KG (08)
Kobe (09, 10)
LeBron (12, 13, 16)
Curry (15, 17)

Now I think Magic deserves a seat at this table, and I think guys who didn't win are in the conversation with some of these guys too. And that ignores Russell, Chamberlain, Robertson, Baylor, West who all need to be considered with most of these guys too.

I think it's better to just amend the Top 10 comment to Top 25. Then you're probably only left with the Pistons x3.
 

HomeRunBaker

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IT has "Bird" Rights correct? As in we can be GSW for half a second and sign him for stupid money above the fake cap?
Every team can be GSW if every guy they draft turns into stars and the team plans accordingly as their rookie contracts end as the soft cap isn't designed to place limits on a teams payroll. It was designed to promote competitive balance and allow teams to retain their own players as back in the day every star would want to sign with the Laker and Knicks in the big cities.

Those times have changed to a degree but the Warriors didn't do anything sneaky by circumventing the soft cap.....they drafted Curry, Klay and Draymond while timing to signing of a FA (Durant) to fit UNDER the cap.
 

jmm57

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Jul 15, 2005
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Granted the huge cap spike last year was timed perfectly for them. A year later and they couldnt have put this team together. They have done a great job, but Durant involved a bit of luck.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Granted the huge cap spike last year was timed perfectly for them. A year later and they couldnt have put this team together. They have done a great job, but Durant involved a bit of luck.
The luck with Durant was all in the timing and the fact that they drafted Curry, Klay, and Draymond to make themselves a desirable location for him. If these were the Baron Davis and Stephen Jackson Warriors of a decade ago I don't think Durant would be viewing the Bay Area quite the same. Their luck was created by themselves......as the adage goes, "Luck is when opportunity meets preparation."
 

pjheff

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Jan 4, 2003
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Regardless, the point is that teams aren't backing up the Brinks truck for half-a-superstar. And IT4 is half-a-superstar; he is one of the NBA's best players on the offensive end of the floor and is, at best, below-average on the defensive end.
Using those terms, Morey just backed up two Brinks trucks for Harden. And closer to home, the Celtics have backed up two Brinks trucks of their own for Horford and Hayward, and I'm not sure either qualifies as even half-a-superstar.
 

soxfan121

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Using those terms, Morey just backed up two Brinks trucks for Harden. And closer to home, the Celtics have backed up two Brinks trucks of their own for Horford and Hayward, and I'm not sure either qualifies as even half-a-superstar.
Well, Harden is worth three Brinks trucks. But even if you disagree, it's sorta irrelevant to the discussion of whether IT is worth one Brinks truck.

As for Horford and Heyward - you sort of have a point, but the context matters. Last season's huge increase in the cap is why Horford got a Brinks truck. Heyward is considered by most NBA wonks as a better all-around player than IT. He's also younger, and doesn't have a bad hip.