Hightower out for the year

tims4wins

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At least this happened before the trade deadline - gives BB and Caserio the chance to at least see what's out there.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Well this is pretty bad news. After the defensive improvement we've seen over the past few weeks I was hoping that it could be sustained. But Hightower's our best defensive player and without him that's going to be pretty much impossible.
 

DJnVa

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I want to say "Why can't we have nice things?" but I know that isn't fair, because we do have REALLY nice things with this team, but man, is it just impossible in today's NFL for a team to have a "healthy" season?
 

dynomite

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Ted Johnson 2.0. Just can’t stay healthy ever.
He’s definitely had injuries throughout his career, but this will be the first time he’s played fewer than 12 games in a season.

Just a devastating injury. Doubt we win either of the last town Super Bowls without his 4th quarter plays.

At least this happened before the trade deadline - gives BB and Caserio the chance to at least see what's out there.
True. Imagine they’ll take a look at Giants, Niners, Browns tape.
 

InstaFace

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I want to say "Why can't we have nice things?" but I know that isn't fair, because we do have REALLY nice things with this team, but man, is it just impossible in today's NFL for a team to have a "healthy" season?
Nobody bats 1.000, but we probably won the injury batting title last year - Gronk notwithstanding. We were fairly charmed in 2014 too - Ridley, Mayo, Chandler Jones, not sure there was anyone else who missed substantial time.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I want to say "Why can't we have nice things?" but I know that isn't fair, because we do have REALLY nice things with this team, but man, is it just impossible in today's NFL for a team to have a "healthy" season?
The last two times the Pats won the SB they did have relatively healthy seasons by NFL standards. The last couple of times the Pats got a lot of injuries they lost in Denver in the AFCCG. There's a direct correlation.
 

Ed Hillel

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This is 2015 all over again. He’s their most important player on defense, I’m not sure this can be overcome with the goals set so high.

Outside of Green Bay, Pats might have the worst injury luck this year to date. Losing two top 5 players before the halfway point is brutal.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Bert Breer was just on Toucher and Rich and he claimed that the Pats (and other teams looking at Hightower this offseason) knew that Hightower's pec was "55%" torn, whatever that means.
 

bigq

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This is 2015 all over again. He’s their most important player on defense, I’m not sure this can be overcome with the goals set so high.
Hightower is very good but I don’t think his loss will make or break the season.
 

Ed Hillel

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How did he look on the Raiders?
Great, in his first game. 11 tackles and a sack.

But the Pats were ok with McClellin coming back, Hightower/Van Noy/Harris/Roberts. Bill probably goes more aggressively after Bowman had this happened two weeks ago. He might play with Oakland anyway, given location.
Hightower is very good but I don’t think his loss will make or break the season.
Maybe not, but we’re getting there with the injuries. Edelman and Hightower is a ton of value.
 

Toe Nash

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Next man up. They'll miss him of course but I thought the other LBs looked much better the last couple games, and when the defense was horrific it was mostly the secondary's issues.
 

soxfan121

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Geez, Navarro Bowman would look good on our team right about now.
Probably but the next "you get a couple million dollars AND you don't have to practice" contract Belichick gives out would be the first.

Bowman apparently needs the whole week to "treat" his knee(s) and is limited to walkthroughs. Having no experience in a scheme like the Patriots defense, he'd have to pick up all of the playbook without any practice time - which is a pretty tough ask of any player, even a former All-Pro.

TSH had Bert Breer (ugh) on and he got into an argument with Fred about whether Ninkovich would get a phone call. Breer was dubious unless "there was a lot of money on the table" while Fred - who was strongly hinting he's talked to Ninkovich - saying that "I KNOW he wants to play this season."

As for Hightower, this is probably the end of his career as a useful player. Mayo just kept tearing up the shoulder/pectoral and tackling is the highest risk activity there is for such an injury. Paging @DaveRoberts'Shoes for more on why pec/shoulder injuries are so hard to overcome for linebackers.
 

lexrageorge

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The last two times the Pats won the SB they did have relatively healthy seasons by NFL standards. The last couple of times the Pats got a lot of injuries they lost in Denver in the AFCCG. There's a direct correlation.
Sunday's Football Notes article in the Glebe noted that the Super Bowl participants in recent years (Pats, Denver, Seattle, Carolina, Atlanta) were all relatively healthy compared to the rest of the league. After a team loses more than 3 starters, however, it's often bad news. Pats have lost Edelman and Hightower and Mitchell, and are likely to lose Rowe. Granted, the last 2 are not in the same category as the first 2, but still. You can throw in Derek Rivers, who looked really promising in training camp.

Just an example of why an 18 game season is a really, really, really bad idea all around.
 

Stitch01

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Fuck me, knew the instant rule out on Wednesday was a bad sign.

Bowman also was a free agent who may have preferred to stay in California, not sure he was even available to the Patriots, he didnt make it to his Cowboy visit did he?

Im not sure Id go as far as to say its the end of Hightower's career as a useful player, but he's probably somewhere else/on a different contract in 2019.
 

lexrageorge

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Probably but the next "you get a couple million dollars AND you don't have to practice" contract Belichick gives out would be the first.

Bowman apparently needs the whole week to "treat" his knee(s) and is limited to walkthroughs. Having no experience in a scheme like the Patriots defense, he'd have to pick up all of the playbook without any practice time - which is a pretty tough ask of any player, even a former All-Pro.

TSH had Bert Breer (ugh) on and he got into an argument with Fred about whether Ninkovich would get a phone call. Breer was dubious unless "there was a lot of money on the table" while Fred - who was strongly hinting he's talked to Ninkovich - saying that "I KNOW he wants to play this season."

As for Hightower, this is probably the end of his career as a useful player. Mayo just kept tearing up the shoulder/pectoral and tackling is the highest risk activity there is for such an injury. Paging @DaveRoberts'Shoes for more on why pec/shoulder injuries are so hard to overcome for linebackers.
Andre Tippet tore his pec and came back strong the following season.
 

Erik Hanson's Hook

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So, should this (plus Edelman) change our expectations for the season?

Arguably the two most important players on each side of the ball are done (aside from Brady of course)
 

Super Nomario

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Outside of Green Bay, Pats might have the worst injury luck this year to date. Losing two top 5 players before the halfway point is brutal.
This is silly. The Texans lost Watt and Mercilus the same week. Beckham, David Johnson, Eric Berry, Joe Thomas are out for the year. The Eagles just lost their left tackle and their best LB. The team we're playing Sunday already lost two interior OL and their best secondary player. The Dolphins and Colts lost their QBs before the season even started, and Minnesota has played without theirs for weeks. It's a bloodbath out there; I would guess the Patriots' injury luck this season is closer to average than to the bottom end.

Probably but the next "you get a couple million dollars AND you don't have to practice" contract Belichick gives out would be the first.
*second (Roman Phifer). But that was a long time ago, and I essentially agree.
 

DaveRoberts'Shoes

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I’m going back to my standing theory that only three things matter in the NFL - QB, head coach, and overall injury load to a team. Everything else is just window dressing.

As to the prior question, I don’t think pec tears are necessarily a death knell for linebackers in particular, but it is key in the tackling motion, which is the most important part of their job. I think Mayo just had bad luck and was at the end of the line overall - unfortunately I think we’re venturing into that territory with Hightower. He’s got a lot of wear and tear between his time at Bama and his career here
 

Number45forever

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I'd suspect there may be a trade coming, they are soooo thin at LB now. Or, more Jordan Richards/Chung at LB! Maybe it'll now work out well that David Harris has been kept on ice thus far. Please stay healthy, Van Noy.
 

Marciano490

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I’m going back to my standing theory that only three things matter in the NFL - QB, head coach, and overall injury load to a team. Everything else is just window dressing.

As to the prior question, I don’t think pec tears are necessarily a death knell for linebackers in particular, but it is key in the tackling motion, which is the most important part of their job. I think Mayo just had bad luck and was at the end of the line overall - unfortunately I think we’re venturing into that territory with Hightower. He’s got a lot of wear and tear between his time at Bama and his career here
I've torn my pec twice and it's never been a thing going forward - but isn't the determinative question where the tear is? Both mine were apparently in the "hamburger meet" of the muscle and not at the insertion point where the muscle tore off the bone.
 

Stitch01

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So, should this (plus Edelman) change our expectations for the season?

Arguably the two most important players on each side of the ball are done (aside from Brady of course)
I don't think so, unless its a binary win the Super Bowl or failure expectation. They still have a chance to be one of the handful of teams with a chance to win the Super Bowl and every team has warts.
 

BigJimEd

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TSH had Bert Breer (ugh) on and he got into an argument with Fred about whether Ninkovich would get a phone call. Breer was dubious unless "there was a lot of money on the table" while Fred - who was strongly hinting he's talked to Ninkovich - saying that "I KNOW he wants to play this season."
Nink said about a month ago that he hasn't ruled out coming back this season.
 

bsj

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I'd suspect there may be a trade coming, they are soooo thin at LB now. Or, more Jordan Richards/Chung at LB! Maybe it'll now work out well that David Harris has been kept on ice thus far. Please stay healthy, Van Noy.
I feel like typically they do not trade to fill gaps like this because I dont think they think a brand new guy, at this point, can grasp the system well enough. I think its more likely they look at a guy like Ayers, who would cost them no picks, and has some understanding of the system, for depth.
 

Beomoose

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I’m going back to my standing theory that only three things matter in the NFL - QB, head coach, and overall injury load to a team. Everything else is just window dressing.

As to the prior question, I don’t think pec tears are necessarily a death knell for linebackers in particular, but it is key in the tackling motion, which is the most important part of their job. I think Mayo just had bad luck and was at the end of the line overall - unfortunately I think we’re venturing into that territory with Hightower. He’s got a lot of wear and tear between his time at Bama and his career here
But, still.....fuuuuuuuuuck.
 

Shelterdog

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This is silly. The Texans lost Watt and Mercilus the same week. Beckham, David Johnson, Eric Berry, Joe Thomas are out for the year. The Eagles just lost their left tackle and their best LB. The team we're playing Sunday already lost two interior OL and their best secondary player. The Dolphins and Colts lost their QBs before the season even started, and Minnesota has played without theirs for weeks. It's a bloodbath out there; I would guess the Patriots' injury luck this season is closer to average than to the bottom end.


*second (Roman Phifer). But that was a long time ago, and I essentially agree.
GB has probably had worse injury luck.

I think we're at average but moving closer to the below average. When you look at the adjusted games lost that football outsider does average is essentially missing 60 games by starters and key reserves. Julian is 16, Hightower 11, Rowe for 4, a bunch of guys for 1-- you're about halfway there halfway through the season. I guess if you count Mitchell or McClellin or Cyrus Jones (?!) that gets you close to average but it's not particularly bad injury luck by number of players.
 

DaveRoberts'Shoes

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I've torn my pec twice and it's never been a thing going forward - but isn't the determinative question where the tear is? Both mine were apparently in the "hamburger meet" of the muscle and not at the insertion point where the muscle tore off the bone.
Exactly-you had a “musculotendinous” tear, which is always non-surgical - I had the same thing myself on both sides. If the tendon is off the bone... time to see Jimmy
 

tims4wins

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He’s definitely had injuries throughout his career, but this will be the first time he’s played fewer than 12 games in a season.

Just a devastating injury. Doubt we win either of the last town Super Bowls without his 4th quarter plays.



True. Imagine they’ll take a look at Giants, Niners, Browns tape.
Casillas from the Giants maybe?

Also, having lost Edelman and now Hightower, it is not so much the talent replacement I worry about, but the toughness and leadership aspect. I realize this team has a ton of toughness, and a ton of leadership, but I feel like Edelman and DH were #1 in those departments on their side of the ball. When the going gets tough, those are the guys you need. Hopefully this isn't a back breaker. I think they can still win it all, but they are treading on thinner ice.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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This sucks so much. He’s not replaceable by one guy. He plays middle, stuffs run, rushes from inside and out, sets edge, lines up everywhere, chases TE’s and drops into coverage. Plus he seems to have a flair for making a play when we really need it. There is no next man up, its more like next men up. Gonna need contributions from 3-4, but when any of them are on the field its harder to disguise what we’re doing.
 

Super Nomario

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I'd suspect there may be a trade coming, they are soooo thin at LB now. Or, more Jordan Richards/Chung at LB! Maybe it'll now work out well that David Harris has been kept on ice thus far. Please stay healthy, Van Noy.
I don't think they're that thin - they have bodies, between Van Noy, Roberts, Harris, Marsh, Richards, and McClellin coming back. Too bad losing Langi around the same time, though who knows if he could give them much. I see it as more a quality issue than a depth issue. I suspect they'll mix and match these guys, none of whom can come close to replacing Hightower individually but some of whom can plausibly substitute for pieces of his performance (McClellin / Marsh on the edge, Richards in coverage situations, Roberts / Harris on early downs).
 

Marciano490

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Exactly-you had a “musculotendinous” tear, which is always non-surgical - I had the same thing myself on both sides. If the tendon is off the bone... time to see Jimmy
Is Andrews that good? Is it his technical abilities as a surgeon, or something else?
 

Shelterdog

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Example number 689 why BB is good at his job. BB went out of his way to praise Marsh in both the breakdowns and in his Tuesday presser.

I'm not sure if Marsh was all that great but he's likely going to have to have a bigger role (or perhaps more accurately the defense isn't likely to be good if he doesn't have a bigger role and play it well) going forward so BB goes out of his way to show the team and Marsh that BB has confidence in Marsh.

I'm also somewhat hopefully about both Van Noy and McClellin's performance going forward. Ninkovich got a lot better in his second year in the system at LB (Vrabel also got better IMO although he started at a pretty high level) so we've seen a veteran or two improve in year two at linebacker.
 

joe dokes

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I’m going back to my standing theory that only three things matter in the NFL - QB, head coach, and overall injury load to a team. Everything else is just window dressing.

As to the prior question, I don’t think pec tears are necessarily a death knell for linebackers in particular, but it is key in the tackling motion, which is the most important part of their job. I think Mayo just had bad luck and was at the end of the line overall - unfortunately I think we’re venturing into that territory with Hightower. He’s got a lot of wear and tear between his time at Bama and his career here

You beat me to it on both counts. This has First-Stage-of-Decline Mayo all over it. Gets hurt but is still good when healthy. When Mayo finally returned to good health, he was no longer effective.

Sure they have depth in numbers, but none of the others are as good as Hightower at his near-best (not right now, anyway)..