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Hall of Fame Ballot: 2019 Induction

Discussion in 'MLB Discussion' started by E5 Yaz, Nov 19, 2018.

  1. NYCSox

    NYCSox chris hansen of goats Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    7,818
    Meanwhile Lou Whitaker, with the second highest career bWAR of eligible non-steroid players, even higher than St. Derek of the Bronx, sits and waits. Ridiculous.
     
  2. SumnerH

    SumnerH Malt Liquor Picker Dope

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    Because it waters down the achievement for others and loses focus for visitors to the Hall.

    Same reason that the Grammys are a joke.
     
  3. Ale Xander

    Ale Xander Member SoSH Member

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    Hysterical that he 1) gets in and 2) gets in before Edgar (and Papi, yeah I know)
     
  4. brs3

    brs3 sings praises of pinstripes SoSH Member

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    I go back and forth on the bigger/smaller hall of fame discussion, but I don't think Harold Baines will greatly alter anyone's visit to the Hall of Fame than Jim Rice does for non-Boston fans.
     
  5. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    While I do think there may be a few players in the Hall today that probably were not worthy of induction, I don't think that list is very large. Nor is it a problem. Most fans would rather see some of their favorite players enshrined in the Hall than not. So having Jim Rice, Andre Dawson, Kirby Puckett, and perhaps Jack Morris is not as big of a problem as, in my opinion, excluding Lou Whittaker and Edgar Martinez.

    However, there does need to be some standards. The Veterans Committee was formed in an attempt to get players in that were overlooked by the voters at the time of their candidacy for whatever reason. Why yet another such committee was formed, and the composition of that committee, and the process they used for voting are all complete mysteries. It's a recipe for disaster, IMO, with Harold Baines the tip of the iceberg.
     
  6. Dahabenzapple2

    Dahabenzapple2 Member SoSH Member

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    At least Jim Rice has a whole bunch of shaded numbers while Baines ONCE led the league in slugging and it was a BIG 0.541. Plus Rice had was in the top 5 for MVP voting 6 times. Baines was once 9th in MVP voting.

    Puckett was also a much better player than Baines despite like Rice being valued higher at the time than he should have been. He was in the top 7 times out of his 12 seasons in MVP voting.

    Baines was never thought of as being in the category of any of these guys or Evans, Whittaker, Edgar, etc. This isn't quite George "High Pockets" Kelly but it is as bad as Rick Ferrell or Sunny Jim Bottomley. He's in the top 5 or 8 worst players in the HOF while many other great players remain excluded and if Edgar doesn't get elected this year, then it will be even more criminal. I was irritated pretty bad when Tony Perez was elected but this takes it to a whole other level of back-scratching ignoramus bull shit.

    Even worse than Jack Morris - Baines is probably the most unqualified player elected in my lifetime
     
    #106 Dahabenzapple2, Dec 10, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  7. mt8thsw9th

    mt8thsw9th anti-SoSHal SoSH Member

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    Hey, don't you look forward to the Veteran's Committee's backlash to the stats movement? Expect a lot more borderline players while they pwn the sabrz. I'm half expecting David Eckstein to make it in.
     
  8. bankshot1

    bankshot1 Member SoSH Member

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    I'm sure its already been said in this thread, but other than the 11 guys who voted for him, no one who saw Baines play thought he was a Hall of Fame player.

    If the HoF is going to let the Vet Committee hand out free lifetime honors to their buddies, perhaps some mimimum threshold must first be met, like a 66% BBWAA vote hurdle.
     
  9. Danny_Darwin

    Danny_Darwin Member SoSH Member

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    I mean, they went to this whole "era committee" system because nobody was getting voted in unless they were dead. Is that really preferable?

    Put differently, would you rather put up with the occasional Baines if it means that someone like Evans or Whitaker or Lofton or whoever your favorite is gets a legitimate chance down the line like Alan Trammell did? I guess if you're a Small Hall person it doesn't matter.

    To say it again, I think the writers are now going to stop voting for worthy-but-not-slam-dunk guys like Walker or Rolen, thinking they'll get in via the committee backdoor, only those players won't have as friendly of a committee working in their favor. (And yes, I am aware that TLR managed both of those guys.)
     
  10. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    Maybe a better way is to have this "era committee" nominate players to be added to the regular BBWAA ballot, and allow voters to exceed the 10 player limit when they vote on these nominated candidates. The committee also has to make the case for the nominated player to the BBWAA voters. Let the committee explain their reasoning for nominating a Baines over Whitaker or Evans.
     
  11. SumnerH

    SumnerH Malt Liquor Picker Dope

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    The problem isn't individuals, it's in aggregate; it's a death of 1000 paper cuts. (Which is why I didn't push back against Baines in particular, but rather the broad idea that people should always vote for 10 on their ballots).
     
  12. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Whitaker, Evans and Ted Simmons are always on my "why aren't they in there" list
     
  13. charlieoscar

    charlieoscar Member

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    There are a number of people here that there are players in the Hall of Fame who really do not deserve to be, I feel that some forget that there were people who played more than one hundred years ago who were considered outstanding in their time, but as years have past, the number of people who have played has greatly increases and the baseline for excellence has climbed.

    This is a simple experiment comparing batters by OPS+ with at least 3000 PA from the era of 1893-1910 and all-time from 1893-2018) ...all players to those elected to the Hall. Players from the early portion may actually have started their careers before the pitching distance changed to 60'6" in 1893. I'm not defending Baines's election nor railing against it (although I never remotely considered him and the Hall).

    I broke the batters down to the number of those who had at OPS+ in the ranges of 100/110/120/130/140+, anc calculated the percentages. As can be seen, when players are looked at from teh braod spectrum as opposed to the early, narrow spectrum, the percentage of Hall of Famers with an OPS+ of 120+ is much higher (high-lighted) while there is a much smaller difference among the players over all.

     
  14. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

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    I think people should vote for 10 every year because I think it's idiotic that they get dumped so quickly from the ballot. If you want to be elite, that's fine but don't eliminate people after one year. Get rid of that rule and the stupid Veteran's Committee process and it's a different ballgame.
     
  15. SumnerH

    SumnerH Malt Liquor Picker Dope

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    It's not the Hall of Best Era-adjusted Players, it's the Hall of Fame. George Mikan might not crack the NBA today, but he absolutely deserves to be in the basketball hall of fame over superior modern players.

    There are a lot of reasons beyond in-a-vacuum performance to put people in. Being dominant enough that you cause the pitching distance to get pushed back should count in your favor in terms of HOF credentials, even though it certainly should cause your statistics to be viewed with a negative eye to the different playing conditions.

    We can sort WAR, OPS+, and ERA+ lists on our own.
     
  16. Dehere

    Dehere Member SoSH Member

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    Peter King once said something about the football HOF that has stayed with me. He said that part - not all, but part - of his consideration of finalists was to ask: could you tell the story of football in their era without mentioning this guy?

    Orel Hershiser, for example, seems like a guy who is not a HOFer on pure stats, but could you properly tell the story of baseball in the 80s without mentioning him? IMO you couldn't.

    Baines was a hell of a hitter but you could easily tell the story of baseball in the 80s and 90s without mentioning him once.
     
  17. Rough Carrigan

    Rough Carrigan reasons within Reason Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Amen.
    I saw Harold Baines' entire career, albeit as a fan of a different team who only saw him several times a year. But at no time did I ever think he was a hall of famer. I'd have voted Lee Smith in before him and I probably wouldn't have voted him in either. I'm not sure.

    Go to Harold Baines' page at baseball reference and look at it:
    https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/baineha01.shtml

    In his 21 year career, he only once ever led the league in anything, a .541 slugging percentage in 1984. He went to 6 all star games. Okay. That sounds a little more hall of famer-ish. In his career, he had 3 seasons where he got into the top 10 in OPS. 6th in the AL in 1984, 7th in the AL in 1989 and 10th in the AL in 1995. And this is a guy who was a DH. He didn't bring any other value. And 3 times in his 20 year career he got into the bottom half of the top 10 in OPS. Hall of Fame!!!! Pathetic.

    Is this era going to end up looking as bad as when Frankie Frisch got a bunch of bums into the hall?
     
  18. Seels

    Seels Member SoSH Member

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    2,111
    He has 1.8 wins above average player in his career.
    He's 640th all time in MVP shares. Anyone who has a single 5th place finish ever is above him.

    Even the Frankie Frisch guys you can go back and think hey well it was a different era, they might not have known better. All things considered, this is indiefensible and the worst pick ever. Guys like Dawson Rice and Sutter are legends compared to Baines.
     
  19. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Has anyone found the ongoing ballot for 2019 yet?
     
  20. Dewey'sCannon

    Dewey'sCannon Well-Known Member Silver Supporter

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    I think there's probably a long list - at least 15-20 - of non-pitchers who are more deserving than Baines who are not yet in. Will this open the floodgates for the likes of Whitaker, Dewey, Walker, McGriff, Lofton and Simmons, to name just a few of the overlooked? You really have to believe in a BIG hall to include Baines.

    Of the list of those considered in this batch, I probably would have voted for Hershiser (great peak) and Davey Johnson (in part because he was an innovator in terms of considering what we now call "analytics"). And maybe I could be talked into Lee Smith. I have no idea why Lou Pinella came up only one vote short.
     
  21. charlieoscar

    charlieoscar Member

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    I think you are being a bit ridiculous here. Of course playing conditions were different but you have to judge players against their peers. In 1908 the White Sox hit three home runs as a team, and one of those was by a pitcher. The league average was 15. It's rather hard to compare 1908 player to 2018 players in that regard; however, their OF Patsy Dougherty had a career OPS+ of 117, which certainly puts him easily in the upper half of players from that era.

    As for your comment that "We can sort...on our own," well, I don't think enough do.

    And what about today's players? How well would they do if they were transported back to the early 1900s, without LASIK, Tommy John surgery, etc.; modern training techniques; video; ballpark lighting; poorer equipment; train travel? I suspect many of the good athletes would adapt. For one thing, they probably would be bigger than ones actually born back then. But I think they would probably rank with the top players of that era and not all be triple crown threats.
     
  22. GrandSlamPozo

    GrandSlamPozo lurker

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    22
    And 2.3 of them came in one year! (1984)
     
  23. Max Power

    Max Power thai good. you like shirt? SoSH Member

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    Because it was funny when he got mad and kicked his hat.
     
  24. jungleboy

    jungleboy lurker

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    Do you mean a tracker for the BBWAA vote? Here’s one, but there are only 32 public ballots so far.

    http://www.bbhoftracker.com/
     
  25. Tyrone Biggums

    Tyrone Biggums nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion SoSH Member

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    Baines getting in is like when Koko B Ware got into the WWE HOF. Decent overall but he doesn’t deserve the status.

    When is Dewey getting in?
     
  26. Jim Ed Rice in HOF

    Jim Ed Rice in HOF Red-headed Skrub child SoSH Member

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    3,209
    And here's the detailed version. I like rows 9-11 which show the percentages from last year and the drop off (or gain) from the pre-results and the public vs. private ballots. It gives you an idea of how much to discount the tracker vs. what the final result may be. The gain/loss section at the bottom is also a good way to see if players are gaining ground (Edgar) or losing ground (Manny).
     
    #126 Jim Ed Rice in HOF, Dec 11, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  27. soxhop411

    soxhop411 Member SoSH Member

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    33,195
    Oof. We have a bad ballot.

    [​IMG]
     
  28. simplicio

    simplicio Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

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    Jesus, if Edgar doesn't get in, the Baines Committee better hold a special session the next day.
     
  29. Al Zarilla

    Al Zarilla Member SoSH Member

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    Harold Reynolds (as a peer player) yesterday said he was, and he was very emphatic about it. o_O
     
  30. Ford Frick's Asterisk

    Ford Frick's Asterisk Member SoSH Member

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    He's just excited that it's opened the door for all Harolds to get in.

    *
     
  31. Al Zarilla

    Al Zarilla Member SoSH Member

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    Interesting that Baines is the first player to get in with the name of Harold that went by Harold. The other three Harolds in the Hall are Harold "Pee Wee" Reese, Harold "Hal" Newhouser and Harold "Pie" Traynor. I would have thought there'd be more, given the long history of the game. Maybe I (or BBREF) missed somebody.
     
  32. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Jayson Stark receives Spink award and will go into writings wing of the HoF
     
  33. Wake49

    Wake49 Member SoSH Member

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    No. I would rather see some deserving guys be left out than include a bunch of not quite worthy ones. To me, the “occasional Baines” has been more than occasional the last 10-12 years.
     
  34. Danny_Darwin

    Danny_Darwin Member SoSH Member

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    1,162
    Who? The VC has only inducted four living players since 2001, all in the last two years.
     
  35. charlieoscar

    charlieoscar Member

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    I looked at Hall of Famers (batters) and found 159. Then I determined one standard deviation of their plate appearances and compiled averages for various hitting categories. (In the case of percentages, I did averages of averages because there was information missing for the calculating exact OBP and thus OPS for different eras--not the best thing, but....).

    I then used the figure I came up with from the standard deviation and looked at all batters (443) from 1871 through 2018 whio had at least as many PAs and calculated their stats similarly. NOTE: there are HOF'ers in this part. As can be seen, there is a fair amount of difference between the "haves" and the "have-nots," some of which is attributable to eras in which the players appeared.

     
  36. Jim Ed Rice in HOF

    Jim Ed Rice in HOF Red-headed Skrub child SoSH Member

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    They're up to 66 ballots on the public tracker now. Biggest net adds to ballot from previous:
    McGriff +11
    Walker +10
    Mussina and Edgar +8
    Vizquel +7

    Manny the biggest loser at -4

    Not that it means anything at this point but Mariano, Edgar, Halladay, Mussina and Schilling are above the cut line.
     
  37. SirPsychoSquints

    SirPsychoSquints Member SoSH Member

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    Is it possible to paste a summary/picture/something? The site is blocked at my work.

    The recent additions to the Hall seem to be coming through in the above gains, as people are finding room on their ballots.
     
  38. Jim Ed Rice in HOF

    Jim Ed Rice in HOF Red-headed Skrub child SoSH Member

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  39. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Larry Walker getting a big early push
     
  40. charlieoscar

    charlieoscar Member

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    TSW...did he use amphetamines?
     
  41. maufman

    maufman Anderson Cooper x Mr. Rogers Staff Member Dope Gold Supporter

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    I created a separate thread to discuss Curt Schilling’s character and its implications for his Hall of Fame candidacy.

    Also deleted a few posts complaining about the quality of discourse on that subject — for future reference, the right way to complain is to use the “report post” function.
     
  42. ThePrideofShiner

    ThePrideofShiner spooky action from a distance SoSH Member

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    6,087
  43. BoSox Rule

    BoSox Rule Member SoSH Member

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    I wouldn’t blame you for not reading that entire shitty article at all, but I somehow did. He’s not sending a ballot so it doesn’t matter who he would vote for. But my god that was terrible.
     
  44. ThePrideofShiner

    ThePrideofShiner spooky action from a distance SoSH Member

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    Ahh, my bad. It was misrepresented on Twitter.
     
  45. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

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    Mariano pitched in 96 postseason games, 16 ALDS (that has to be a record), 9 ALCS, 7 WS. He gave up 11 postseason ERs his entire career, 0.70 ERA in 141 innings. I watched all of that and it is still pretty hard to believe it happened.
     
  46. Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat

    Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat has big, douchey shoulders Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    His numbers are simply amazing
     
  47. Detts

    Detts Member SoSH Member

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    HI! I want people to know who I am because I am a dumbass looking for attention.

    The class he showed tipping his cap at the 2014 WS celebration cemented my respect for him.
     
  48. moondog80

    moondog80 heart is two sizes two small SoSH Member

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    Obviously Mariano should be in. But if someone doesn’t want him to be the first unanimous guy and doesn’t vote for him, I sort of get it.
     
  49. Max Power

    Max Power thai good. you like shirt? SoSH Member

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    3,335
  50. Jim Ed Rice in HOF

    Jim Ed Rice in HOF Red-headed Skrub child SoSH Member

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    I’d rather Mariano become the first before Hopes and Dreams is eligible. I really don’t want to see the media gushing about Jeter being the first unanimous selection.
     

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