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Hall of Fame Ballot: 2019 Induction

Discussion in 'MLB Discussion' started by E5 Yaz, Nov 19, 2018.

  1. scottyno

    scottyno Member SoSH Member

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    4,379
    Baines who is now a hall of famer 39 career bwar 38 career fwar. Placido Polanco who is on the current ballot and will receive at most 1 vote and will never be on any ballot ever again, 42 career bwar 38 career fwar. What a massive failure of a committee.
     
  2. Seels

    Seels Member SoSH Member

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    2,111
    I don’t understand the difference. Seems like same thing with a minor name change
     
  3. mt8thsw9th

    mt8thsw9th anti-SoSHal SoSH Member

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    17,049
  4. SumnerH

    SumnerH Malt Liquor Picker Dope

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    Amplifying this, people also seem to get hung up on who was better on the field, forgetting that it's a Hall of Fame. We can pull WAR rankings ourselves, the point of the Hall should be to highlight people with actual fame in baseball history.

    As a small hall advocate, I wouldn't enshrine Hershiser but at least with the streak and postseason storylines he had some actual swagger and acclaim going for him. As you note, Baines was basically invisible.
     
  5. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    57,532
    espn:
    Baines and Lee were joined by Albert Belle, Joe Carter, Will Clark, Orel Hershiser, Davey Johnson, Charlie Manuel, Lou Piniella and George Steinbrenner as candidates on the ballot.
     
  6. soxhop411

    soxhop411 Member SoSH Member

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    33,195
    With Baines being elected to the HOF. Any argument against electing Edgar Martinez to the HOF has gone up in smoke.

    There is no argument that can now be made that says he is not worthy of the HOF


    and

    If he does not get elected to the HOF, the HOF has become a meaningless organization
     
  7. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

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    11,406
    Forget Edgar, any argument against David Ortiz being a slam dunk first ballot Hall of Famer is up in smoke as well.

    And as someone else said, it remains a travesty that Dwight Evans wasn’t elected.
     
  8. PC Drunken Friar

    PC Drunken Friar Member SoSH Member

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    8,951
    Wait...that's official? Harold Baines is a HoFer?!?!
     
  9. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

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    11,406
    • Roy Halladay (first year)
    • Andruw Jones (2nd year, 7.3%)
    • Jeff Kent (6th year, 14)
    • Edgar Martinez (10th year, 70.4%)
    • Fred McGriff (10th year, 23.2%)
    • Mike Mussina (6th year, 63.)
    • Mariano Rivera (first year)
    • Scott Rolen (2nd year, 10.2%)
    • Curt Schilling (6th year, 51.2%)
    • Larry Walker (9th year, 34.1%)

    Reasons
    1 Too few pitchers from this era are getting in.
    2. McGriff gets boosted for me given Baines enshrinement
    3. Jones and Rolen get bonus points for their defensive excellence
    4. Kent one of the best offensive 2nd basemen ever.
    5. Fuck the steroid guys.
     
  10. hbk72777

    hbk72777 Member SoSH Member

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    Ahh, nevermind, now they have 4 different committees?

    Well, whichever Mattingly is on, hopefully these 2 players helped his case
     
    #60 hbk72777, Dec 9, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
  11. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    1,292
    So Joe Morgan is exacting his revenge on Billy Bean and the book he wrote. Good for him.

    I look forward to comment from Tim Kurkjian, who has gotta be one of the no votes. Who are the other three, I wonder.
     
  12. j-man

    j-man Member

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    1,207
    my ballot
    Barry Bonds (7th year, 56.4% in 2018)
    Roger Clemens (7th year, 57.3%)


    Roy Halladay (first year)


    Jeff Kent (6th year, 14.5%)

    Edgar Martinez (10th year, 70.4%)
    Fred McGriff (10th year, 23.2%)
    Mike Mussina (6th year, 63.5%)


    Mariano Rivera (first year)

    Curt Schilling (6th year, 51.2%)


    Larry Walker (9th year, 34.1%)
     
  13. NJ Fan

    NJ Fan Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    3,123
    I realize this sounds a bit cliché but... At no time watching either Baines or Smith did I ever think "That guy's a HoFer." No sir.
     
  14. hbk72777

    hbk72777 Member SoSH Member

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    1,940

    The scary part is that the Harold Baines pick is preventing most people from freaking out over the Lee Smith pick
     
  15. Mugsy's Jock

    Mugsy's Jock Longtime Member Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Lou Piniella apparently missed election by one vote. I couldn't even...
     
  16. hbk72777

    hbk72777 Member SoSH Member

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    1,940

    Baines and Lee weren't even the best out of this group
     
  17. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    And none of the others on the ballot got as many as 5 votes
     
  18. Wake49

    Wake49 Member SoSH Member

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    367
    Steinbrenner would have been the best choice from that list.
     
  19. Tyrone Biggums

    Tyrone Biggums nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion SoSH Member

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    Belle will get in eventually if Baines got in
     
  20. Hoya81

    Hoya81 Member SoSH Member

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    Of that list, the only player I wouldn’t put above Baines is maybe Will Clark.

    I’m surprised that Davey Johnson didn’t get more consideration as a manager. Two-time MOTY, finished 2nd four other times.
     
  21. Minneapolis Millers

    Minneapolis Millers Member SoSH Member

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    1,883
    I'd really like to hear voters supporting Baines explain this. He literally had none of the req's for admission. No great season hardware (MVP) or postseason heroics or iconic moments. No career milestones (3,000... 500 HR etc). Was a DH. Literally nothing other than the "professional hitter" label which describes a good, NON-HOF type. Baffling
     
  22. Old Fart Tree

    Old Fart Tree the maven of meat Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Baines is HILARIOUS.
     
  23. Dehere

    Dehere Member SoSH Member

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    Would anyone like to make a case for Harold Baines as a HOFer, just as a thought exercise?

    There are guys I can at least build a rationale for even if I wouldn't vote for them myself. Lee Smith is one of those guys. Harold Baines, nothing against him, but I don't see the argument.
     
  24. sheamonu

    sheamonu Member SoSH Member

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    811
    Baines in, Dwight Evans out is a travesty. I have nothing against a “big” hall - but cronyism is something else again...
     
  25. Spacemans Bong

    Spacemans Bong chapeau rose SoSH Member

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    17,773
    Will Clark’s peak shits all over Baines.

    Forget Dewey, the Fred Lynn for the Hall bandwagon just got some momentum today. He’s better than Baines too.
     
  26. keninten

    keninten lurker

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    506
    The floodgates are open now. We`ll need a bigger HOF.
     
  27. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    I mean, yeah, different voters looking at different era of players. It’s more diluted.

    Its a committee to look at players/managers/executives that didn’t get enough support from regular voters. Which is dumb for players that played into the 90s.
     
  28. Spacemans Bong

    Spacemans Bong chapeau rose SoSH Member

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    It's not really, because the writers screw up all the time. Trammell was an egregious miss by the Hall, and it took huge, concerted campaigns to get clear Hall of Famers like Tim Raines and Bert Blyleven in, two guys who got elected with barely any eligibility left. If Edgar Martinez doesn't get in this year, he's appearing on this ballot next time. Larry Walker's probably going to be on this ballot, as will Kenny Lofton.

    That said, that was a weak af ballot. Clark is probably the best player there, but the only person I would say is a definite yes from me (putting away my Giants hat for the sake of argument) is Davey Johnson.
     
    #78 Spacemans Bong, Dec 10, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  29. Philip Jeff Frye

    Philip Jeff Frye Member SoSH Member

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    When I saw the headline on ESPN "Chicago legends Baines, Smith picked for Hall," I assumed this was some kind of Chicago Hall of Fame.

    I for one look forward to Toby Harrah's HOF induction ceremony.
     
  30. BoSox Rule

    BoSox Rule Member SoSH Member

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    1,622
    There are some players that have absolutely horrible cases for the Hall of Fame. Jack Morris was the best pitcher of the 80s (he wasn’t, but that’s what people said.) Lee Smith was the all-times saves leader before Hoffman and Rivera (ok, this is true but it shouldn’t really matter) and Vizquel was basically Ozzie Smith so why not (he wasn’t nearly as good.)

    I can’t think of a SINGLE FUCKING REASON that Harold Baines could have possibly been elected by even a stupidly small sample size of 12/16 people in this pointless made up ballot.
     
  31. Clears Cleaver

    Clears Cleaver Lil' Bill SoSH Member

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    10,992
    Given the news of Baines enshrinement, it kind of makes the entire BBWAA vote somewhat meaningless. I mean every marginal candidate on the ballot has precedent to get in. Jeff lent? Lock. McGriff? Done and done. Dewey?? Red carpet.

    I’m sure Harold baines is a nice guy. But there needs to a Baines wing (Morris rizzuto et al) now. It really undermines the Hall

    Perspective: Mookie Betts needs to play through May this year to pass Baines 20-year career WAR totals.
     
  32. moondog80

    moondog80 heart is two sizes two small SoSH Member

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    4,877
    The reaction to this has been near unanimous that it is a joke. I expect the voters will come out today and make their case?
     
  33. BoSox Rule

    BoSox Rule Member SoSH Member

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    These were the 16 voters:

    Roberto Alomar
    Bert Blyleven
    Pat Gillick
    Tony LaRussa
    Greg Maddux
    Joe Torre
    Joe Morgan
    Ozzie Smith
    John Schuerholz
    Al Avila
    Jerry Reinsdorf
    Paul Beeston
    Andy MacPhail
    Steve Hirdt
    Tim Kurkjian
    Claire Smith
     
  34. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    30,976
    Point taken. I just meant I could more understand the idea of going back and finding guys from long ago. Do we really need to retcon Harold Baines?
     
  35. hbk72777

    hbk72777 Member SoSH Member

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    1,940
    I'm guessing there was some backdoor politicking.

    I can't imagine that Baines coincidentally got so many votes while others didn't get even half as much.

    Just wondering which one of those voters was the one that started the push?
     
  36. OnWisc

    OnWisc Pegs his jeans SoSH Member

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    3,301
    Reinsdorf

    https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/w...all-fame-election-he-really-chicago-white-sox

    "He just deserved it," Reinsdorf said. "It was just a shame he didn’t get in sooner than this. Harold is a great player. You look at the numbers he put up in the '80s and the '90s and played in the Majors for 22 years. I don’t think he ever had a bad year. Of course, there’s no finer person than Harold Baines.

    "When the game was on the line in the eighth or ninth inning, and you can pick somebody to you wanted up, it was Harold Baines."

    Reinsdorf was a member of this year's 16-person committee, along with former White Sox manager Tony La Russa, who managed Baines for many years during the 1980s.

    Asked how he reacted when Baines was officially elected, Reinsdorf said, "I just went like that," showing reporters a fist pump, "and I looked up at Tony La Russa and I thought he was going to cry."
     
  37. Savin Hillbilly

    Savin Hillbilly loves the secret sauce SoSH Member

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    17,832
    One of these is not like the other, though. You can make a pretty solid argument that Lee Smith is a top-10 relief pitcher. (He's #5 in fWAR, for instance.) How being a top-10 relief pitcher stacks up in the grand scheme of baseball achievement is another question, of course, but still.

    The only thing Harold Baines was one of the best at is longevity (#20 all-time in games played). In Bill James' taxonomy, he's a Definition-D HoFer, at best:

    One thing I think we can safely conclude: Harold Baines must be a hell of a nice guy.

    EDIT: To expand on this, here are some players who were Baines' contemporaries (1980-2001) and are not in the Hall despite having more rWAR than his 39.9. I'm leaving off the obvious steroid red-flaggers and people still on the ballot:

    Albert Belle, Jack Clark, Julio Franco, Andy Van Slyke, Gary Gaetti, Darryl Strawberry, Don Mattingly, Ellis Burks, Keith Hernandez, Lenny Dykstra, John Olerud, Dwight Evans....

    There are a bunch more names, but I had to stop there for a moment. Dwight Evans has more rWAR than Harold Baines during Baines' playing years, even though the first eight years of Evans' career fell outside that period. Yet Baines is in and Evans is not.

    ....Mark Grace, Chuck Knoblauch, Matt Williams, Willie Randolph, Tony Fernandez, Devon White, Dale Murphy, Robin Ventura, Brett Butler, Tony Phillips, Kenny Lofton, Will Clark, Lou Whitaker.....

    Now of course WAR is not and should not be the ultimate arbiter of these things, but it seems like a particularly valid yardstick in this instance because Baines played for so long. A guy who played for 22 years without producing more value than Andy Van Slyke did in 13 is not a Hall of Famer. It really is that simple.
     
    #87 Savin Hillbilly, Dec 10, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  38. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    6,774
    Career OPS+:

    Dwight Evans: 127 (2146 games in OF)
    Fred Lynn: 129 (1825 games in OF)
    Jim Rice: 128 (1543 games in OF)
    Edgar Martinez: 147
    Papi: 141

    Baines: 121 (1061 games in OF)

    There are about 2 notable things I can recall from Harold Baines' career:

    - He had some success against Roger Clemens (0.782 OPS in 126 plate appearances). And Jack Morris, fwiw.

    - He appeared in the All Star game when he was 40 years old on his way to a 0.919 OPS that season.

    If either Martinez or Papi miss the Hall, they should just create a new one from scratch.
     
  39. Danny_Darwin

    Danny_Darwin Member SoSH Member

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    1,162
    I’m going to predict that the backlash to this will actually inspire an overcorrection from both the writers and VC and we’ll be back to the days of barely anyone getting in.
     
  40. Spacemans Bong

    Spacemans Bong chapeau rose SoSH Member

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    17,773
    It's nice that a guy like Trammell didn't have to die to get in (eg Ron Santo), but I get your point. If the Hall kept the 15 year rule, and if Baines had gotten enough support, he could conceivably still be on the ballot. In fact, his first year on the ballot was 2007 so he would have several years to go.
     
  41. Spacemans Bong

    Spacemans Bong chapeau rose SoSH Member

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    17,773
    Man, that's just a comically good group of people for Harold Baines. The guy who owns the franchise he is most associated with in Reinsdorf. His first manager (TLR), a guy who traded for him (Gillick), a former teammate (Alomar), several players and managers in the 80s and 90s AL (Alomar again, Torre, Blyleven), the president of a rival team in Beeston, the GM of a rival AL team in MacPhail and Schuerholz, someone who covered him extensively in the division in Smith and Kurkjian.

    I don't know if all 11 of those people voted for him, but I bet they did and that means he just needed 2 of Maddux, Morgan, Smith, Avila and Hirdt to get in.

    It's like if Fred Lynn (I'd say Dewey, but he's got a much better case) came before a panel of people comprised exclusively of 1970s AL East personalities, and the group was chaired by John Henry. Of course he's fucking getting in.
     
  42. BoSox Rule

    BoSox Rule Member SoSH Member

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    Yeah, pretty much what you said. In fact, I edited my post but the original version was basically that it was Frisch having his buddies elected all over again. A complete and utter joke. McGwire didn’t even get a single vote TO GET ON the ballot.

    Edit- McGwire was dropped from this ballot, the 0 votes I was remembering were from the 2016 ballot.
     
  43. Philip Jeff Frye

    Philip Jeff Frye Member SoSH Member

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    I can vividly remember people writing towards the end of his career "Oh my god, what if Baines manages to hang around long enough to get 3,000 hits and then he'll have to get into the Hall of Fame when nobody in his right mind thinks Harold Baines is a Hall of Famer?" Turns out he didn't even need to do that.
     
  44. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

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    Why is it too big? Are they running out of space? I’d agree that mistakes have been made on who has gotten in (cough Jim Rice cough) but it’s a game that’s over 100 years old. I don’t think it needs fixing in a way that reduces players being let in, they just need to make better selections. And I don’t think the voting process is good. Players shouldn’t drop off the ballot so quickly.
     
  45. John Marzano Olympic Hero

    John Marzano Olympic Hero has fancy plans, and pants to match Dope

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    19,477
    I was looking up Baines' number last week when it was announced that he was on the ballot and I was legitimately shocked that he played until 2001. Gun to my head, if you asked me when Harold Baines retired, I would have said 1994.

    I am legitimately confused as to how anyone considers him a Hall of Famer.
     
  46. The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa

    The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa Member SoSH Member

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  47. sheamonu

    sheamonu Member SoSH Member

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    811
    Look, the Hall is already “big” and it is probably fundamentally unfair to attempt to change that now and revert to “immortals only” status. My problem with Baines getting in is that it clearly derives from a biased panel which included, amongst others, the guy who paid his salary for most of his career. How do you go back to a Dwight Evans and say “look, you’re better using any possible offensive metric, you played and excelled in the field at the highest level, you have at least one of the most iconic moments in WS history to your credit (the Morgan catch), given the personal travails you went through you’re one of the most admirable guys to play in you’re era - but I guess you’re no Harold Baines”. Shootout at Credibility Gap time.
     
  48. John Marzano Olympic Hero

    John Marzano Olympic Hero has fancy plans, and pants to match Dope

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    19,477
    I'm in favor of a big HoF too. But I don't want it infinitely big. First Jack Morris, now Harold Baines*. Who's next Fred Manrique?

    * And Morris and Baines were above average major league baseball players. They were All-Stars and incredibly durable players. But they aren't Hall of Famers.
     
  49. BoSox Rule

    BoSox Rule Member SoSH Member

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    1,622
    Baines is now the 3rd 1-1 pick to be elected to the Hall, joining Ken Griffey Jr. and Chipper Jones. That is hilarious.
     
  50. Al Zarilla

    Al Zarilla Member SoSH Member

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    47,666
    Ken Rosenthal said on MLBN today that Baines deserves to be in the hall of very good.

    BWAR

    Baines 38.7
    Dwight Evans 67.1
     

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