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Hall of Fame Ballot: 2019 Induction

Discussion in 'MLB Discussion' started by E5 Yaz, Nov 19, 2018.

  1. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    57,535
    • Rick Ankiel (first year)
    • Jason Bay (first year)
    • Lance Berkman (first year)
    • Barry Bonds (7th year, 56.4% in 2018)
    • Roger Clemens (7th year, 57.3%)
    • Freddy Garcia (first year)
    • Jon Garland (first year)
    • Travis Hafner (first year)
    • Roy Halladay (first year)
    • Todd Helton (first year)
    • Andruw Jones (2nd year, 7.3%)
    • Jeff Kent (6th year, 14.5%)
    • Ted Lilly (first year)
    • Derek Lowe (first year)
    • Edgar Martinez (10th year, 70.4%)
    • Fred McGriff (10th year, 23.2%)
    • Mike Mussina (6th year, 63.5%)
    • Darren Oliver (first year)
    • Roy Oswalt (first year)
    • Andy Pettitte (first year)
    • Juan Pierre (first year)
    • Placido Polanco (first year)
    • Manny Ramirez (3rd year, 22%)
    • Mariano Rivera (first year)
    • Scott Rolen (2nd year, 10.2%)
    • Curt Schilling (6th year, 51.2%)
    • Gary Sheffield (5th year, 11.1%)
    • Sammy Sosa (7th year, 7.8%)
    • Miguel Tejada (first year)
    • Omar Vizquel (2nd year, 37.1%)
    • Billy Wagner (4th year, 11.1%)
    • Larry Walker (9th year, 34.1%)
    • Vernon Wells (first year)
    • Kevin Youkilis (first year)
    • Michael Young (first year)
     
  2. DeadlySplitter

    DeadlySplitter Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    15,161
    well Rivera is a slam dunk, and Edgar should finally get in. not sure about anyone else this year.

    Halladay deserves to be in, but probably not first ballot. wonder how much the posthumous aspect affects the vote, if any.
     
  3. John Marzano Olympic Hero

    John Marzano Olympic Hero has fancy plans, and pants to match Dope

    Messages:
    19,479
    My ballot:
    • Barry Bonds (7th year, 56.4% in 2018)
    • Roger Clemens (7th year, 57.3%)
    • Jeff Kent (6th year, 14.5%)
    • Edgar Martinez (10th year, 70.4%)
    • Fred McGriff (10th year, 23.2%)
    • Mike Mussina (6th year, 63.5%)
    • Manny Ramirez (3rd year, 22%)
    • Mariano Rivera (first year)
    • Gary Sheffield (5th year, 11.1%)
    • Larry Walker (9th year, 34.1%)
    Haven't looked at the numbers at all, but this what I'd say at first blush.
     
  4. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    6,783
    Bonds
    Clemens
    Edgar Martinez (time to end this anti-DH nonsense)
    Mussina
    Mariano
    Manny

    People I could be talked into voting for:

    Halladay
    Sheffield
    McGriff (maybe)
    Tejada (if for no other reason than to keep him on the ballot for more than one year)
    Vizquel (the one I leave off if I vote for all of the above)
    Jason Bay (does Cafardo have a vote?)





    And, yes, the Jason Bay vote was made in jest.
     
  5. SirPsychoSquints

    SirPsychoSquints Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,784
    I'd probably have 14 or 15 on a ballot, so I'l go with:
    1. Bonds
    2. Clemens
    3. Halladay
    4. Edgar
    5. Mussina
    6. Manny
    7. Mariano
    8. Schilling
    9. Walker
    10. Sosa
    I would probably also want Helton, Kent and Andruw, and I'd need to think about McGriff, Rolen and Sheffield.
     
  6. nolasoxfan

    nolasoxfan Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    2,889
    Mariano Rivera...and, sadly, that’s it.
     
  7. RGREELEY33

    RGREELEY33 Potty Mouth Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,541
    My ballot (in order of conviction):

    — Barry Bonds
    — Roger Clemens
    — Mariano Rivera
    — Manny Ramirez
    — Edgar Martinez
    — Larry Walker
    — Mike Mussina
    — Curt Schilling
    — Fred McGriff
    — Roy Halladay
     
  8. axx

    axx lurker

    Messages:
    6,001
    You don't have to vote for everyone, you know.

    I would vote for Bonds, Clemens and Mo.
     
  9. Jim Ed Rice in HOF

    Jim Ed Rice in HOF Red-headed Skrub child SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,209
    • Barry Bonds (7th year, 56.4% in 2018)
    • Roger Clemens (7th year, 57.3%)
    • Roy Halladay (first year)
    • Edgar Martinez (10th year, 70.4%)
    • Mike Mussina (6th year, 63.5%)
    • Manny Ramirez (3rd year, 22%)
    • Mariano Rivera (first year)
    • Curt Schilling (6th year, 51.2%)
    A question for those leaving Schilling off but having Mussina (or to a lesser degree Halladay) on: it's Schilling the person not the ballplayer that knocks him off your list correct? Because I was just comparing Mussina and Schilling and I can't see voting one and not the other except with that being a mitigating factor.
     
  10. SirPsychoSquints

    SirPsychoSquints Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,784
    I'm of the opinion that the ballot has become backed up, and there are more worthy candidates than there are slots on a ballot. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way. I expect that voting for fewer than 5 would be the minority view.
     
  11. Dahabenzapple2

    Dahabenzapple2 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    7,479
    My ballot:

    Rivera
    Edgar
    Mussina
    Schilling

    Kent
    Walker
    Rolen
    Wagner
     
  12. John Marzano Olympic Hero

    John Marzano Olympic Hero has fancy plans, and pants to match Dope

    Messages:
    19,479
    Schilling the person.
     
  13. canderson

    canderson Fomenting voting confusion and angst since 2016 Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    22,039
    Rivera
    Bonds
    Clemens
    Manny
    Edgar
    Vizquel
     
  14. bsj

    bsj Renegade Crazed Genius SoSH Member

    Messages:
    16,884
    I'd vote
    • Jeff Kent (6th year, 14.5%)
    • Edgar Martinez (10th year, 70.4%)
    • Fred McGriff (10th year, 23.2%)
    • Mariano Rivera (first year)
    • Omar Vizquel (2nd year, 37.1%)
    • Halladay
    Halalday gets in for me. 2 Cys....7 top 5 in voting.

    Incidentally, Halladay way over Mussina for me
     
    #14 bsj, Nov 19, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
  15. brs3

    brs3 sings praises of pinstripes SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,521
    I think the Hall of Fame should recognize the steroid era, and the megastars that came out of it.
    • Barry Bonds
    • Roger Clemens
    • Pete Rose
    • Roy Halladay
    • Edgar Martinez
    • Manny Ramirez
    • Mariano Rivera
    • Curt Schilling
    on the fence
    • Omar Vizquel
    • Andy Pettitte
    • Mike Mussina
     
  16. Gdiguy

    Gdiguy Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    2,059
    I tend to lean more towards 'best in MLB for a shorter time' than 'very good for a while', so I'm with you on Halladay over Mussina (but I can understand the other argument)
     
  17. Ale Xander

    Ale Xander Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    18,738
    Ale Xander ballot

    • Barry Bonds
    • Roger Clemens
    • Roy Halladay
    • Andruw Jones
    • Manny Ramirez
    • Mariano Rivera
    • Larry Walker
    • Omar Vizquel
     
  18. bsj

    bsj Renegade Crazed Genius SoSH Member

    Messages:
    16,884
    And in this case we are talking 16 year career vs 18. Both substantial
     
  19. Danny_Darwin

    Danny_Darwin Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,163
    I’d probably be the guy who leaves off Rivera, not because I don’t think he’s worthy, but because there are several candidates who have interesting cases but are in danger of falling off the ballot - Rolen, Andruw, Manny, Sheffield, Helton, Sosa, maybe even Walker. (To clarify, I mean Walker will "maybe" fall off the ballot, not that his case is "maybe" interesting. It definitely is.)

    I still don’t get the Vizquel love, either.
     
    #19 Danny_Darwin, Nov 19, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
  20. Lose Remerswaal

    Lose Remerswaal Leaves after the 8th inning Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    32,692
    Lose R's ballot:

    Barry Bonds
    Roger Clemens (and I've been against these guys since day 1, but I've changed my mind on the steroid thing)
    Edgar Martinez
    Manny Ramirez
    Mariano Rivera
    Omar Vizquel


    Loser Ballot:

    Bay
    Garland
    Lilly
    Oliver
     
  21. charlieoscar

    charlieoscar Member

    Messages:
    1,113
    For what it's worth, here are the Hall of Fame Statistics from bb-ref for the 11 pitchers on the list of eligibles. Pick any pitcher and scroll down about 2/3-rds of the way down his page and you can find links to explain what Black and Gray Ink, HOF Monitor and Standards, JAWS are. Sorted by scores (descending) and first name when tied. Also, teh chart needs to be scrolled to see all the columns.

     
  22. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,084
    That entire list you'd only vote for Rivera? Or you're saying that's you think gets in?

    You don't have to, no. But every voter should pick their ten best candidates. The voting rules are inane, if you think someone is even borderline, vote for him and keep him on the ballot. We've seen far too many players like Trammel or Whitaker get bounced far before their time and we've seen players' cases change over the course of being on ballot (some good, some bad). There's a backlog, keep anyone remotely viable above the cut line.

    Rivera
    Clemens
    Bonds
    Martinez
    Halladay
    Helton
    Jones
    Rolen
    Sheffield
    Sosa
     
  23. Ale Xander

    Ale Xander Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    18,738
    Sheff and Sosa over Manny?

    Please turn in your RSN card.
     
  24. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,084
    Yeah that’s a mea culpa. I’ll keep Sosa and drop Sheffield for Manny.
     
  25. Spacemans Bong

    Spacemans Bong chapeau rose SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,775
    His ballot is way better than yours. Every single person he named has, at worst, a very credible Hall of Fame case. The Hall has systematically under-enshrined players from the expansion era (1961) onwards. Someone like Fred Lynn, Dale Murphy or even Johnny Damon is better than a good half dozen Hall of Fame center fielders for example. Andruw Jones, Carlos Beltran and Kenny Lofton are better than about 10 Hall of Fame center fielders (old favorite Dewey Evans is also better than about 10 Hall of Fame right fielders, including no-doubters like Vlad Guerrero and Dave Winfield). The weakest candidate he named is probably Fred McGriff, and McGriff has a better WAR and JAWS than Orlando Cepeda. Helton ranks above Hank Greenberg, Harmon Killebrew, Bill Terry, and George Sisler.

    At some point, I think you have to question where the line used to be and why it's shifted up, and whether it does the Hall of Fame and the fans of the game a disservice that somebody who played on color television, and was seen by you, me, or other living people not yet receiving Social Security is out, but the same player (who also played when the game systematically excluded much of its current talent on racial lines) from 1925 is in.

    Nuance is needed, because WAR and JAWS aren't perfect: they don't like Jeff Kent at all but LOVE Willie Randolph. They LOVE Rick Reuschel. I'm skeptical about that. But as blunt instruments, I'm willing to allow them to filter who has a credible case and then examine each person individually after that. And it's a lot of people.

    Rolen should be on anyone's top 10 though. Tenth best third baseman ever by WAR and JAWS, better by a hair than Edgar (who gets labelled a 3B). Obviously a better and more durable defender than Edgar, excellent hitter. Played longer than people remember, people forget he was in the 2010 Reds team that made the playoffs.
     
  26. Seels

    Seels Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    2,111
    Vizquel would immediately be one of the absolute worst guys in the hall and just lower the bar even further. I’ll post full thoughts later but Vizquel has absolutely no place in.
     
  27. Hoya81

    Hoya81 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,599
    I think there’s a case for Vizquel. His overall numbers are pretty similar to Ozzie Smith. Only a 3 time all-star, but that’s not surprising given he spent his prime in the AL with Ripken/Jeter/Nomar/A-Rod crowding him out.
     
  28. BoSox Rule

    BoSox Rule Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,622
    Nobody talked about Vizquel as a Hall of Famer until he started piling on useless hits as a replacement level player (or worse) for the last SIX YEARS of his career when he should have been forced into retirement. According to JAWS he doesn’t crack the the top 20 and is barely a more qualified candidate than Kevin’s Youkilis, Derek Lowe, or Freddy Garcia.

    His supporters try to sell him as some slightly lesser version of Ozzie Smith but he wasn’t even in the same stratosphere as an offensive player, and certainly not as a defender where Smith laps the field with almost any other player in baseball history.
     
  29. Max Power

    Max Power thai good. you like shirt? SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,337
    It depends. If you think that Frankie Frisch's work to get all his friends in the Hall of Fame in the 70s is the proper baseline for membership, then yes, Fred McGriff is a no doubter. But if you think that era should be considered a mistake and the requirements a bit higher, then a smaller ballot is absolutely acceptable.
     
  30. ngruz25

    ngruz25 Bibby SoSH Member

    Messages:
    12,765
    Omar Vizquel got one MVP vote in his career. It was an 8th place vote in 1999.
     
  31. Spacemans Bong

    Spacemans Bong chapeau rose SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,775
    Jim Bottomley is a Frisch pick, but Orlando Cepeda, Frank Chance, Bill Terry and Tony Perez aren't and they're all either worse or basically the same as McGriff.

    But the point isn't really McGriff, he's the weakest candidate of that list. It's that there are a ton of guys enshrined who were not beneficiaries of the Frankie Frisch Superfriends of Justice who are inferior players to Walker, Helton, Lynn, Murphy, Evans, Rolen, Simmons, whoever.
     
  32. Spacemans Bong

    Spacemans Bong chapeau rose SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,775
    Vizquel's candidacy is 100% trolling the stat nerds who have argued since I have been following sabermetrics that Vizquel is overrated as fuck.

    As I've laid out, I'm a big Hall guy and Vizquel is nowhere near my Hall. He had one pretty good season, 1999, and every other year he was a 2-3 win player.

    Just from the 1995 Indians alone, I'd rather have Murray, Winfield, Thome, Lofton, Manny, Belle, Dennis Martinez, Orel Hershisher, hell Carlos Baerga had two good years that are better than Vizquel's two best years.
     
  33. Archer1979

    Archer1979 shazowies Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,430
    Riviera should be a unanimous pick, but won't be because there's always some reporter that wants to make a name for himself, get an interview on ESPN, that sort of thing.

    Halladay should get in.

    Mussina and Schilling seemed neck and neck for the Hall with Schilling having the edge with his post-season heroics. That said, you've got to think his personal views have permanently lost him some votes.

    When looking at Vizquel, I think of the time someone asked John Lennon if Ringo was the best drummer in the world. Lennon's response was that Ringo wasn't even the best drummer on the Beatles. Vizquel was probably the best shortstop after Nomar got hurt, A-Rod moved to third base, and Jeter's range dropped to one step to the left or the right. In other words, he didn't get appreciably better. He just won a war of attrition.
     
  34. The Filthy One

    The Filthy One Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,768
    My ballot:
    • Bonds
    • Clemens
    • Schilling
    • Martinez
    • Mussina
    • Halladay
    • Rivera
    • Walker
    • Manny
    • Sosa
    Definitely no McGriff or Vizquel. Schilling is Schilling, but come on, Cap Anson is in the Hall of Fame.
     
  35. BoSox Rule

    BoSox Rule Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,622
    Nobody would have ever called Vizquel the best shortstop in baseball at any point in his career. Vizquel was practically a Giant by the time Nomar and A-Rod we’re done at short.
     
  36. AB in DC

    AB in DC OG Football Writing Silver Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    5,217
    Fun to see Derek Lowe and Kevin Youkilis on a HOF ballot here. What's the likelihood that either of them get more than 1% of the vote?

    Or should I say, more than 1 vote, total?
     
  37. ookami7m

    ookami7m Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,558
    My ballot:

    -Bonds
    -Clemens
    -Rivera
    -Manny
    -Edgar Martinez
    -Sosa

    Not sure how I feel about Schilling/Hallady/Mussina but I could be talked into them but they're all close enough that it's hard to vote for one with out voting for the others.
    Larry Walker is the other questionable one I see. The Coors field effect is a real thing and more importantly it's an image thing that will probably hurt him in some voters eyes.
     
  38. Ale Xander

    Ale Xander Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    18,738
    Coors is real but he was a 5 tool player, the best defensive right fielder in the game for about a 10 year stretch
     
  39. MetSox1

    MetSox1 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    534
    Here we go:

    Roy Halladay
    Andruw Jones
    Mariano Rivera
    Curt Schilling
    Larry Walker


    Could really be talked into Vizquel as one of the great defenders of all time. It's the HOF, not the Silver Slugger Of Fame. Hence Andruw who may have had a glove as good as Vizquel, but hit better.
     
  40. Ford Frick's Asterisk

    Ford Frick's Asterisk Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    340
    No brainer:
    • Mariano Rivera

    Because with or without PEDs they're no brainers:
    • Barry Bonds
    • Roger Clemens
    • Manny Ramirez

    Because, according to MLB, designated hitter is an legitimate position:
    • Edgar Martinez

    Because it's possible to both play at Coors Field and be a Hall of Famer:
    • Larry Walker

    Because if Jack Morris is a Hall of Famer, how can you leave them out?
    • Roy Halladay
    • Mike Mussina
    • Curt Schilling

    Because he's probably my all-time favorite, don't expect a rational argument:
    • Omar Vizquel

    *
     
  41. SemperFidelisSox

    SemperFidelisSox suzyn SoSH Member

    Messages:
    16,350
    Just because Jack Morris was a crime doesn’t mean we need to continue committing them.
     
  42. moondog80

    moondog80 heart is two sizes two small SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,880
    This is all that needs to be said. Show me the argument that MVP voters made a big mistake year after year with him. Because if they best he ever did was the 16th best player in the American League, and even that was an outlier, I don’t know how that is a HOFer.
     
    #42 moondog80, Nov 27, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  43. scottyno

    scottyno Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,382
    How about Glavine and Smoltz? They both soared into the hall first ballot despite being inferior pitchers to Mussina and Schilling, I mean Glavine got a higher vote total than Pedro!
     
  44. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

    Messages:
    31,003
    Today's Game ERA committee elects Harold Baines and Lee Smith.
     
  45. SemperFidelisSox

    SemperFidelisSox suzyn SoSH Member

    Messages:
    16,350
    The job of the Today’s Game ERA committee is to let the second tier players in. Let’s just go ahead and put Will Clark or Albert Belle in as well.
     
  46. Greg29fan

    Greg29fan Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    18,808
    Baines had two seasons with a WAR above 3 and none after his 4.3 in 1984. Yikes.
     
  47. SumnerH

    SumnerH Malt Liquor Picker Dope

    Messages:
    25,503
    The Hall is already way too big, to the point where there are good cases for Trammel or Whitaker types because of past players at that level being let in. If everyone votes for borderline players that's never going to get fixed.

    Bonds
    Clemens
    Mariano

    Maybe Edgar and Manny, I'd have to think about it.
     
  48. Seels

    Seels Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    2,111
    Baines is the worst pick for any hall of fame I could even imagine. What a disaster. This is the first DH we let in? A guy that was only even an all star six out of 22 seasons ?

    They need to lose the veterans committee all together, or give it its own independent area. Baines is one of the most forgettable players ever. Does he even make a top fifty players of the eighties or nineties? What a joke
     
  49. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

    Messages:
    31,003
    Yeah, these don't scream HOF'er to me. Dwight Evans has a better case than Baines.

    I guess I'd be okay if Hershiser had made it through this committee--200 wins, postseason stud, that 59 inning scoreless streak. That's something. Baines was just kinda...there.
     
  50. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

    Messages:
    31,003
    This isn't the veterans committee. It's the Today's Era committee.
     

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