Hall of Fame 2.0

[grimshaw]

I get unreasonably worked up about the Hall of Fame voting process and glaring omissions combined with unworthy candidates. To be fair - some players who weren't all that great now in retrospect were elected many years ago when they were worthier, so this is weighted more towards the snubs. If given druthers, these would be my do-overs. I'll stick to offense since this is going to be long.

Catcher - Catcher is the least represented of the positions in the Hall (16 being in) and I think they get shafted for 3 reasons. a) Voters unrealistic offensive expectations compared to other positions, b) lack of counting stats/WAR accumulation due to fewer games being played, and c) imperfect valuation for defensive impact/intangibles.

Should be in: Ted Simmons is the most obvious one for me. Joe Torre should have been in as a player since he played more games at catcher than than other positions and managed 62 career WAR (7th all time). Gene Tenace was criminally snubbed. He's tied with Piazza for the highest wRC+ ever for a catcher (140).

1B - Dick Allen suffered from being a prick to the media, but putting up a wRC+ of 155 really should have nullified that and then some, considering that number is a point higher than Frank Thomas. He also had a relatively short career. I'm slightly biased as I did a fantasy camp a long time ago and he was super nice to me and the other kids. Frank Chance isn't the worst player in the hall - he was a really good hitter, but the cutesy Tinkers to Evers to Chance double play combo really shouldn't include the first baseman. That's more of a nitpick though.

2B - Bobby Grich is the sufferer of a lack of counting stats aside from his 68 career WAR which was heavily weighed by his defense. Lou Whitaker to a much lesser degree was overlooked as relative afterthoughts. Red Schoendienst was elected to the Hall in 1989. Red Schoendienst? It's not like he died 50 years ago. He's still alive.

SS - There are fewer than 5 well known names who managed a higher wRC+ of 120 prior to the late 90's offensive explosion. The bar is a bit too high now, and I think Alan Trammell suffered way too much because of that. I think if you put up an above league bat and are a gold glover, you deserve a closer look. Ozzie Smith didn't even manage that, but he was the greatest defensive shortstop (player?) of all time, so I have no issue with him being in.

3b - Third base and 2b are weighed the same when it comes to defensive impact but for some reason the offensive bar has been really high for candidates to get in. Otherwise it's hard to reconcile how many of them get in. Graig Nettles and Buddy Bell are maybe two guys who could have gotten a closer look, but were more hurt by being fantastic defenders and just good bats. Scott Rolen will be an interesting test. Again - Dick Allen shafted. Highest wRC+ ever by a 3b. Edgar Martinez - not really a 3b, but obviously deserving because of the bat.

RF - Dewey. The weird thing about Dewey is that fangraphs rated his defense as below average for his career and despite that he still 14th in WAR among right fielders http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=rf&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2017&month=0&season1=1871&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=21,d. Dave Winfield was a shoo in despite a comparable slash line and worse defense because of 3000 hits and counting stats. Larry Walker was a better all around player than both and will probably not get in until he's reconsidered way down the line.

CF - Centerfield - The defensive positional adjustment is 10 points higher than the other corner outfield spots. The weight can be argued, but Kenny Lofton deserved a closer look since he added the 5th highest defensive value of all time for a rightfielder. I hope Andruw Jones is shown some love for that. His gap between being the greatest and 2nd place is larger than any other position. http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=cf&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2017&month=0&season1=1871&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=20,d

LF - In general, I think voters have done well here. I don't think Lou Brock and his baserunning made him worthy on his own. He slashed .293/.343/.410 and was not a good defensive player. Steals were the shit back then, though.

DH - none other than Martinez mentioned above.

Who would you omit or add, or what would you change about inclusion?

 

[Buck Showalter]

Jim Edmonds falling of the ballot was a head-scratcher IMO.

Just shy of 400 HRs (393) and 2,000 Hits (1,949).

And a great defensive CFer.

 

[moondog80]

Jim Edmonds falling of the ballot was a head-scratcher IMO.

Just shy of 400 HRs (393) and 2,000 Hits (1,949).

And a great defensive CFer.

Plus a ton of walks. I think he suffered from the same thing that hurt Dwight Evans, they did their career backwards. If you are merely very good in your twenties, you get labeled as such and people don't notice if you turn into a stud in your thirties.

 

[brs3]

Does the HoF need to have more catchers represented? Ted Simmons seems to deserve a closer look, but Joe Torre as a player doesn't, IMO. I look at their stats and where they align during their era offensively. I weigh offense more than defense, and when in doubt I'll consider their postseason. Ted Simmons was among the top 10 in many categories for 5,6,8 seasons in some cases. Joe Torre is among the top 10 in many categories for 2-3 seasons. My idea of what fits and doesn't isn't particularly scientific and might even be moronic, but I don't think playing the most games at a position is a wonderful stat to consider when weighing a place in the HoF. I don't think any singular stat should have more weight. I don't think WAR or wins or strikeouts or home runs solely should define their chances. Mark McGwire's HR total is a good example of who I would not include in the HoF. His career numbers are like a summer action flick; sexy numbers but when you look for plot there are gigantic holes.

I don't necessarily want a smaller hall, I just don't think everybody needs to be recognized as one of the greats when it's not true, even within their own playing career.

 

[grimshaw]

I meant that Torre played more games at catcher than other positions and could be compared to his peers. My argument is that excellent catchers are being overlooked because voters aren't evaluating them with the same discerning eye as other positions. There ought to be less emphasis on comparing catcher offense vs the rest of the league because the position involves so much more than that.

 

[Spacemans Bong]

Torre sucked as a defensive catcher though, that's why he got moved to third base. He was a butcher there too. His 1965 Gold Glove is considered as egregious an award as Raffy Palmiero getting one in 1999 when he played 30 games at first base.

Simmons is interesting because he was widely perceived as a subpar defender (although not as bad as Torre), when there's been some statistical analysis pointing the other way. He was certainly a terrific hitter.

Tenace's career was just too short for my liking. Barely over 1500 games played, yeah catcher but Simmons played almost 900 more games, for example.

I think, in general, players from the expansion era on (so post-1962) are badly underrepresented in the Hall. You look at so-called bubble guys, between 50-65 WAR, and there's a clear bias towards pre-expansion guys. I wouldn't put every post-1962 player in that bubble zone in the Hall - Rick Reuschel has 69 WAR (!!) and I just can't quite mesh with him being a Hall of Famer - but I think I'd lean towards it for most guys.

So, by position:

C: Simmons

1B: I'm surprised there isn't a bigger constituency for Keith Hernandez's induction. The best defensive first baseman of all time, AVG and OBP machine in a tough hitting environment in Shea, for better or worse considered the leader of the '86 Mets. Yeah, he's a dick, but he's not a Dick Allen-type that people just wanted to go away, as seen by his successful broadcasting career. Not the longest career, relatively speaking, but I think there's a lot there.

Dick Allen was a jerk, but a phenomenal hitter. Speaking of jerks, Will Clark deserves a lot more love. He'd have made it in if his back held up and his power held up, but he was still a heck of a player even after his power left.

2B: Grich is somebody statheads have been yelling about for 20 years. As with Whitaker. I think Jeff Kent is badly underrated, one of the best hitting second basemen ever and a decent defender, could turn the double play. Good enough to play 2B on playoff teams in his late 30s.

SS: Trammell unquestionably, I'm more of a big Hall guy but he's one of those guys that should be in even by small Hall standards. I think if you told me I could put one person in the Hall who isn't currently on the ballot, I'd pick Trammell.

3B: Like 2B and C, one of those positions that gets underrepresented in the Hall. Graig Nettles to me is a Hall of Famer - he was a great defensive 3B, definitely would have won more Gold Gloves if not for Brooks Robinson, and he was a good player at 40. Ron Cey and Darrell Evans deserve a greater look, both those guys were like a poor man's Graig Nettles in their own way and I think Nettles is well over the line.

LF: This is hard, it's a bopper's position and the Hall has generally done a good job making sure boppers get in (versus all-rounder hitters, or all-rounder players). Probably the closest left fielder to having a legit Hall of Fame case who isn't in or on the ballot is Jose Cruz, and I think he's just short. Great hitter in a terrible hitting environment - I think his .318 in 1983 was the closest any Astro ever got to a batting title in the Astrodome.

CF: Lofton for sure. Egregious miss by the BBWAA. Jim Edmonds has a real good case. Jimmy Wynn, the Toy Cannon, has a very good case. Sort of a feast-or-famine guy, because he was a low BA/high OBP/high K's for the 1960s type player, but had several MVP candidate quality seasons in atrocious hitting environments. Johnny Damon is on the bubble for me, I'd probably vote no but I think he's somebody who deserves some serious consideration (and probably will get more votes than Lofton or Edmonds...annoyingly). Andruw Jones is an interesting candidate, I feel like 2/3rds of his value comes before the age of 26, and I don't buy some of his defensive stats (like that he was a significantly better defender than Willie Mays).

RF: Dewey, of course. Larry Walker, of course. Walker's interesting in that he's a good example of something writers don't do very well, which is give credit for missed playing time for reasons out of a player's control (ie not injuries). Walker probably passes 400 home runs with strike credit, which is a big milestone that probably helps his case.

P: Luis Tiant, of course. Kevin Brown was a prick but a great pitcher - I think that was a screw up by the BBWAA of Schilling-esque proportions. Dave Stieb is really interesting to me, a Cy Young-quality pitcher for years. Shortish career, but also missed a little bit of time due to the strike - he'd be over 60 WAR otherwise. Suffered in terms of fame due to playing in Toronto.

Tim Hudson's interesting to me. I would have said Halladay was going to bounce around on the ballot more than people expected, but his death almost certainly puts him in for good.

 

[charlieoscar]

CF: Lofton for sure.

I think there are a couple of things against Lofton. One being that he only played in about 78% of the scheduled games (his five high seasons being 154, 154, 148, 148, 140 in 162-game seasons with shortened seasons accounted for) and the other being he was granted free agency 7 times in his 17-year career (after the last time he retired) and he was traded 6 times. In his last six seasons he played for 9 clubs.

 

[Easy Ed Cota]

I think Carlos Delgado falling off the ballot his first year was an absolute travesty.

 

[Spacemans Bong]

I think there are a couple of things against Lofton. One being that he only played in about 78% of the scheduled games (his five high seasons being 154, 154, 148, 148, 140 in 162-game seasons with shortened seasons accounted for) and the other being he was granted free agency 7 times in his 17-year career (after the last time he retired) and he was traded 6 times. In his last six seasons he played for 9 clubs.

I think that certainly accounts for his lack of a constituency, the way that even Tim Raines had everybody who rooted for the Expos or liked that they existed in his corner pushing the Tim Raines for HOF bandwagon. It's possible Cleveland becomes that constituency someday, but they seem to be focusing on Vizquel (I think JI- JIM THOME is a lock).

I don't think Vizquel is a Hall of Famer in a month of Sundays, by the way.

But man, he really wasn't wasting anybody's time. Every year he seemed to get signed by a team so they could deal him to a contender for prospects. He put up 16 WAR from 2002-2007 and in every season bar 2005, he got dealt to a contender. He played in 47 post season games during his "journeyman" phase, which is incredible. That's more than Pablo Sandoval has played in his entire career.