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Greatest RHH of all time?

Discussion in 'Red Sox Forum' started by BaseballJones, May 10, 2019.

  1. Captaincoop

    Captaincoop Member SoSH Member

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    It appears that 14 of Shoeless Joe's 54 career home runs were inside-the-park. And at least 20 of Sisler's 102 career home runs were inside-the-park.
     
  2. SirPsychoSquints

    SirPsychoSquints Member SoSH Member

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    OK, but if I'm asserting that triples were power plays, then saying folks had inside the park homers wouldn't contradict that, right?
     
  3. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    But saying triples are power plays is axiomatic, and not what you originally said, which was that triples were power not speed statistics.
     
  4. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    I think the arc of Hornsby’s career is a representative example of why you’re wrong.

    In his first 3 full seasons, before he presumably had fully developed physically, he had 42 SB, 43 3B, 14 ITPHR, and 5 traditional HR.

    As he entered his peak physical years, his SB and 3B remained relatively constant, while his traditional HR increased upwards of fivefold. As he got older, his traditional HR remained high, while his 3B and SB dropped off a cliff. This strongly suggests to me that triples were more closely associated with speed (which one tends to have more of when younger) than power (which is maintained longer into one’s life).
     
  5. SirPsychoSquints

    SirPsychoSquints Member SoSH Member

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    But doesn't the aging pattern you're describing coincide with the offensive environment changing in the same way?

    For the record - I'm not sure my original statement was right and yours was wrong. I'm exploring this topic.
     
  6. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    No, it doesn’t. And you’re fully capable of doing that kind of cursory research.

    NL team averages for 3B:

    1917 - 76
    1920 - 81
    1923 - 74
    1926 - 74
    1930 - 78
     
    #106 The Needler, May 15, 2019
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  7. SirPsychoSquints

    SirPsychoSquints Member SoSH Member

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    OK, I looked. Hornsby went from 1915-1937. The MLB wide rates of triples (per AB) dropped about 20% from his first 6 years to his last 6 years. Over the same periods, HR rate increased more than double, and stolen base rate (per singles+doubles+bbs) decreased by about 60%.
     
  8. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    Hornsby had 305 PA total in those last six seasons. They are not a relevant period for comparison.
     
  9. SirPsychoSquints

    SirPsychoSquints Member SoSH Member

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    Fair point. So taking the 6 seasons ending in 1931 instead, it's a 5% drop in 3B rate, 90% increase in HR rate, 45% decrease in SB rate.
     
  10. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    Right, and Hornsby's 3B rate dropped by over 60%, his SB rate dropped by more than 75%, and his HR rate increased by, what, 125%? (And that includes 1921 in the early six full years. I think the line of demarcation from when Hornsby went from primarily a speed-fueled hitter to a power-based one is after 1920).
     
  11. SirPsychoSquints

    SirPsychoSquints Member SoSH Member

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    OK

    comparing 1916-1920 vs. 1927-1931

    League 3B rate -3%, Hornsby -60%
    HR +173% vs. +210%
    SB -52% vs. -82%

    So the HR & SB rates track well with environment plus normal aging. 3B rate craters.
     
  12. charlieoscar

    charlieoscar Member

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    I don't think so. You said "triples were power, not speed" and I pointed out that with outfielders playing shallower, balls could get in the gap because there was less time to respond. A sharp line drive hit over the second baseman's head could hit the ground and roll between the CF and RF with a fast-running batter able to get to third.

    Tris Speaker turned six unassisted triple [edit] double plays as a center fielder.
     
    #112 charlieoscar, May 15, 2019
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  13. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    And SB rate craters relative to the league as well starting in 1923. This tracks with my original post about the 3-stage arc of his career:

    1915 - 1920 = Speed. (SB, 3B, ITPHR)
    1921 - 1922 = Speed + Power. (SB, 3B + HR)
    1923 - 1931 = Power. (HR. Massive decline in 3B and SB)
     
  14. SirPsychoSquints

    SirPsychoSquints Member SoSH Member

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    One more note - he went from playing in Cardinals field (outfield depths of 415/430/458/475/441/355/319/308) to Wrigley (364/361/436/447/383/321). I'm not sure a triples comparison of a player in those two parks is meaningful. He's a righty who dropped around 50 feet of outfield distance in left field.

    edit: Source: https://www.seamheads.com/ballparks/year.php?Year=1930

    Edit: His teammates in 1920 hit 76 triples. His teammates in 1929 hit 38.
     
  15. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    That’s well and good, but his triples had already cratered by then. He hit a total of 6 over 140 games at home in StL over 1925-26.

    And if his teammates hit half as many 3B as his teammates in StL, and you attribute that to the park, he should have been expected to lose approximately 25% of his triples comparing 1920 to 1929. But he lost 60%. And Hornsby’s 1920 StL teammates hit 36 triples on the road, which included triple-unfriendly Chicago, while his 1929 Cubs teammates hit only 20 on the road, which included triple friendly StL.

    This doesn’t get you where you’re trying to go.
     
    #115 The Needler, May 15, 2019
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  16. sfederman

    sfederman lurker

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    I'm new to this thread so may be missing something - but this gave me pause. Can you explain?
     
  17. SumnerH

    SumnerH Malt Liquor Picker Dope

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  18. charlieoscar

    charlieoscar Member

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    That was an egregious error on my part as I knew it was double plays.
     

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