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Gordons Production

Discussion in 'Blinded by the Lombardis: Patriots Forum' started by bakahump, Sep 20, 2018.

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What will Gordons 2018 Production be?

  1. Never takes a game snap.

    2 vote(s)
    1.3%
  2. <5 Catches

    12 vote(s)
    7.6%
  3. <20 Catches

    34 vote(s)
    21.7%
  4. <40 Catches

    62 vote(s)
    39.5%
  5. <60 Catches

    26 vote(s)
    16.6%
  6. >60 Catches

    21 vote(s)
    13.4%
  1. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,371
    Yeah you guys are right. It was with complete foresight they passed on him six times, as did 31 other teams, to the tune of 198 players being taken first. Pure game planning and scouting there.
     
  2. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

    Messages:
    6,714
    If you can watch The Brady 6 and hear Brady say that exactly one team even bothered talking to him and working him out, and come away thinking that the Patriots weren't doing something different in their evaluation of him, then we're not going to agree on much.

    They didn't "know" he was going to become what he became, in the sense of having clairvoyance about the future. But they saw something in him that made them look past all the measurables (and as SN points out, then after one training camp, they keep him as a 4th QB on the roster to protect him from waiver claims). They earned the benefits of his success, whatever that would turn out to be, as much as any organization hiring an employee and putting him in a position to succeed possibly could.
     
  3. PaulinMyrBch

    PaulinMyrBch Don't touch his dog food Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    8,205
    I would agree using the word luck to some extent. The Pats went into that draft without a need at QB for either the starter or depth spots. So to say we passed on him 5 times isn't exactly fair considering the position probably wasn't on our board unless BB found a player with extreme value hanging around in the 6th round, which is what I believed happened. They had a higher round grade on him (3rd/4th for instance) and couldn't pass him up in the 6th despite having no real need to draft a QB. The fact that other teams did not evaluate him the same way and therefore didn't draft him could be called luck, or just general incompetence. But we're talking about a college QB with bad measurable's that shared time with a true freshman. He was never going to be a high round pick. The safe statement is he got passed over about 75-100 times, with about 90% of those coming from teams that didn't need a QB, so he was probably discussed by teams for about 8-10 real pick possibilities. So I'd say we're lucky he didn't get selected by the few teams that had a need for about 2 rounds.
     
  4. DourDoerr

    DourDoerr Well-Known Member Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,484
    First off - thanks on the released/trade correction. I was wrong. There were a lot of stories at the time of the trade that he was going to be released and unfortunately that's what I remembered best. Sincerely happy to be corrected on a mistake (although of course I'd rather not have made it in the first place).

    I'm going to have to disagree with the Pats' luck in regard to getting Gordon though. They were totally lucky that a top receiver became available at a time when they had a huge need for an impact receiver. I honestly don't know you can characterize it as anything other than that. And they were also lucky that he actually picked up the offense. How many times has this same prepared and smart FO and coaching staff whiffed on accomplished veteran wideouts like Ochocinco who didn't function well within the Pats' system and Brady's demands or are physically impaired? Most don't even make it out of training camp.

    Finally, I find it odd and a bit unfair that the second part of my original post gives the Pats credit for the work they did do, yet that part was discarded in all the posts that followed. Inconvenient? Yes, I did ascribe a portion of the transaction to luck but I also gave BB, etc. their due.
     
  5. joe dokes

    joe dokes Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    12,256
    Dont forget Trent Brown. Lucky that he was available for only a 3rd round pick and was able to step right in at LT. And lucky that Solder forgot how to play football so that the trade looks even better.
     
  6. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

    Messages:
    32,245
    I guess we were lucky that Irsay didn't draft Brady early since he had a 1st round grade on him after all.
     
  7. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

    Messages:
    32,245
    Because it's a message board and we don't have a "LIKE" button. Generally the discussion is over points of disagreement.
     
  8. SMU_Sox

    SMU_Sox loves his fluffykins SoSH Member

    Messages:
    6,118
    Yeah, I don't want to wade into luck discussions as I think that is a bit of a waste of time. But I do think that Trent Brown for a 3rd round pick is one of the more underrated transactions this year. What a steal. One year of an above average to good LT for a 3rd round pick and if he leaves in FA we probably get a 3rd round pick in 2020? That's not luck that's damn good GM'ing.
     
  9. joe dokes

    joe dokes Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    12,256

    The problem with your construct is that it can be applied to almost every player ever acquired in any way, except the 1st pick in the draft if that guy is a senior (or else lucky he decided to come out early).
    Lucky he was available. Lucky no one else tried to trade a 4th round pick. Lucky he picked up the offense.

    If the smart staff whiffed on Ochocinco, then its the same smart staff that didn't (or hasnt yet) whiff on Gordon. Or did they just get unlucky with Ochocinco?
     
  10. foulkehampshire

    foulkehampshire hillbilly suburbanite SoSH Member

    Messages:
    5,059
    Ochocinco was also 5 years older with way more mileage.
     
  11. DourDoerr

    DourDoerr Well-Known Member Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,484
    BB at the time needed a quarter to play a jukebox he had built and maintained. Walking along a street, he found a quarter. Was he lucky? Well, he had surveyed all the nearby roads and then picked that particular street because it was pot-holed. He also knew - by studying the maintenance charts of the local Brinks Truck company as well as the schedules of each truck's route - that the Brinks truck with the faulty door used that road on that day at that time. Finally, he also was sure to be looking down as he walked. But none of that guaranteed the quarter would be there and in good enough condition to work in the jukebox.
     
  12. Dogman2

    Dogman2 Yukon Cornelius Dope

    Messages:
    13,534
    Cin..ci...natti.
     
  13. Kenny F'ing Powers

    Kenny F'ing Powers posts 18% useful shit

    Messages:
    10,477
    If this is your standard, then everything is luck. Feel free to give me one example in any walk of life where I wont be able to prove that point.
     
  14. Dogman2

    Dogman2 Yukon Cornelius Dope

    Messages:
    13,534
    I'll try this again.

    Cin...ci.natti.
     
  15. WheresDewey

    WheresDewey lurker

    Messages:
    41
    This discussion is making me miss the one about player options in baseball contracts.

    Let's get back to Gordon. I think he's going to have a big day against Miami if Xavien Howard is out.
     
  16. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,371
    Teams start taking fliers on guys by the late third round. Even before that there's an inherent level of "luck" or whatever you want to call it involved with draft picks. He was still sitting there - after the Brady 6 were gone, some to teams that had more need, some that didn't - they went on Rehbein's endorsement and they developed him into what he is. Suggesting there's no luck at all that he was there (not that you specifically are doing so) when their card got called is hagiography. My point is simply that he was there at that point, not that they threw a dart and landed the GOAT.
     
  17. DourDoerr

    DourDoerr Well-Known Member Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,484
    Check. Have the UHaul packed and ready to go.

    KFP - I PM'd you.
     
    #117 DourDoerr, Dec 6, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  18. amarshal2

    amarshal2 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,547
    At 34 receptions with the Pats he seems very likely to exceed 40 on the year and rather unlikely to exceed 60. He has exceeded SoSH expectations.
     
  19. dcmissle

    dcmissle Deflatigator Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    26,565
  20. DourDoerr

    DourDoerr Well-Known Member Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,484
    Thanks for
    Thanks for that dc. Boy, Gordon is saying all the right things. Reading that it occurred to me that having Gordon sit beside him is also beneficial to Brady. I think it has to be inspirational to watch a guy work through his problems and also experience what it's like to be on a winning team. His first division title. First playoffs, etc. Keeps the juices flowing I imagine.
     
  21. dhappy42

    dhappy42 Member

    Messages:
    4,919
    Every time I see this thread title in the timeline I get a craving for a gin and tonic.
     
  22. Super Nomario

    Super Nomario Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,782
    I am convinced this is one of the reasons Belichick always picks up guys from losing teams. There's always a Chris Long or a Jason McCourty who hasn't gotten to experience winning before.

    I think about this video, from the 2016 division-clinching win over the Denver Broncos. You've got Long in it, and Martellus Bennett excited because he hasn't been to the playoffs since his second year, Brady hugging Chris Hogan. The part that always gets me is Dont'a Hightower excitedly throwing a hat to Kyle Van Noy. Hightower probably hasn't ever been on a losing team between, between NE and Alabama. Maybe in middle school or something. Winning a division has to be kind of old hat. But you see him fired up for Van Noy, who was buried on a lousy Lions team and hasn't gotten to experience NFL success:

    https://www.patriots.com/video/patr...bration-following-win-over-the-broncos-284006
     
  23. Saints Rest

    Saints Rest Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    6,939
    Every time I see this thread, I think it is about Gordon Hayward.
    I think the two Gordon threads should be merged with all posts randomly mixed.
     
  24. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    7,104
    Thanks for shifting the goalposts, I guess. But for all the talk about the Patriots' "notoriously difficult offense" the guys that don't "get it" have all turned out to be, coincidentally I'm sure, physically shot. This isn't a commentary on the offense, just the "Reggie Wayne couldn't handle the offense!" nonsense. I'm fairly certain he grasped the offense, but he was just physically unable to handle the grind or get separation anymore when he got here. It happens.

    Similarly Chad Johnson just didn't have the speed or quickness to get separation anymore when New England got him, it's why he didn't do anything after the Patriots cut him. I mean did the Montreal Alouettes have a really tough to grasp offense or was Johnson just too damned slow?
     
  25. dcmissle

    dcmissle Deflatigator Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    26,565
    I’ll grant them luck. I stand by my characterization of the transaction as brilliant.

    They dug a WR hole for themselves, but were astute enough to pull the trigger on Gordon for the price they did when they did. There were more than enough pitfalls to talk yourself out of this acquisition if you wanted to. Some teams probably did. The Pats didn’t.

    He probably saved the season. He may be with us beyond this season. We’re looking at an acquisition that may eventually comp similarly to Welker’s.
     
  26. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,371
    He could be a comp to Moss, really. He seems to be drinking the Kool Aid. Put provisions on an extension and keep him.
     
  27. TomTerrific

    TomTerrific Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,316
    Wow. Just look at him, and look at what Moss could do when he got here. That's not a good comp.

    That's not to say he isn't a good receiver, and if everything breaks right, could be a top 5 receiver next year for us. That is enough to make it a great, great pickup.
     
  28. Ed Hillel

    Ed Hillel Wants to be startin somethin SoSH Member

    Messages:
    21,253
    He’s a restricted free agent. They should just put a second round tender on him for 3 million and be done with it (I doubt anyone makes an offer, given his issues), unless he’s willing to take a super friendly team deal for longer.
     
  29. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,371
    I've looked at him and watched him get better every week as he gets more ingrained and gets back into game shape. His measurables are almost identical (6'3"/ 230# vs 6'4"/215#). He may not be the savant or freak that Moss was so quickly but he's certainly a game changing WR and he's young with not a lot of tread on the tires. He's got just as much physical talent as Moss did, maybe not quite as fast but stronger. No, its not a direct comp, but he's certainly more Moss than Welker, which is what I was responding to. He's an elite WR.
     
  30. johnmd20

    johnmd20 literally like ebola Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    36,871
    Correction, he still does have a lot of tread on the tires.
     
  31. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,371
    Correct, I misspoke. I guess I meant ‘wear’? I dunno, but you know what I was saying.
     
  32. DourDoerr

    DourDoerr Well-Known Member Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,484
    Due to my initial sloppiness with the word "lucky," those goalposts were planted in a spot I didn't intend. I thought I had enough qualifiers but they were in a separate paragraph and didn't make a sufficient linkage. DCmissile was right, it was a brilliant move and I might have amended it to "bold gamble" which would have better reflected my intentions. In any case, the bobbies have tapped my shoes with their stick and if you'd like to go over this ground, please PM me.

    You are right that many of those vet WR's - Johnson, Galloway, Wayne, etc. have washed out due to diminishing skills. I do think though that there is at least something to do with this offense's demands that also plays a factor in some instances. During this current era, they've acquired a few WR's after camp broke (so they're learning the playbook on the fly) and by far the most productive one - until Gordon - was former Patriot Deion Branch in 2010: 11 games, 48 catches, 706 yards, and 5 touchdowns. After him it was Doug Gabriel in 2006, who went 30 catches, 428 yards, and 3 touchdowns in 12 games and then things fall off rapidly. If you believe that the offense's demands are above average, it's impressive that Gordon looks like he'll outpace Branch and that he's still physically dominant (and looks to my eyes to be improving) given a 2 year-and-change layoff. He's been brilliant.
     
    #132 DourDoerr, Dec 10, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  33. NortheasternPJ

    NortheasternPJ Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    12,694
    T&R just said that Gordon is stepping away from football for awhile per a Tweet. Damnit.

    Edit:



    Hope he's OK, but this is the worst timing for the team and something we all were afraid of.
     
  34. mulluysavage

    mulluysavage Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    597
    So he exceeded the expectations of 86.6% of SoSHers who did the poll. Gasper said the Pats took a chance and lost. At least around here he exceeded the vast majority of expectations. So I'd differ with Gasper.
     
  35. MuppetAsteriskTalk

    MuppetAsteriskTalk lurker

    Messages:
    2,289
    Well I posted that I felt the biggest risk was that he becomes integral to the offense and then flakes out at the end of the season/playoffs...

    Most people said they were ok with that as long as he helped the team in the short term. And to be honest, everybody seems to be holding true to that. Way less hard feelings for him than I would have guessed.
     

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