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Gordon Hayward 2018-2019: I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Discussion in 'Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Celtics Forum' started by InstaFace, Jul 13, 2018.

  1. Saints Rest

    Saints Rest Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I knew that they spelled their names differently, but I couldn't recall which was which so I guessed. Hence, my note about HOF.
     
  2. NomarsFool

    NomarsFool Member SoSH Member

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    So, when do we officially hit the panic button? Unfortunately, some guys just never recover from injuries to be the player they were before. He certainly can do some things out there, but a big part of his game is atrocious right now. How many times do we see Hayward drive to the basket and either get stripped, get blocked, or some other non-positive outcome?
     
  3. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    He had summer surgery to remove the hardware from his ankle, so there's a pretty good chance that he doesn't return to full health until next year.
     
  4. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    For starters, I'd like to see a thread name change...
     
  5. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    When pretty much everyone agreed we'd know more? Late this season, possibly *after* the season?

    No one thought he'd be back and what he was on January 28. And if you accept that, then you accept that it's still a work in progress. Why are we speeding up the timeline?
     
  6. bigq

    bigq Member SoSH Member

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    Not yet and probably not even within this season. I would say about a month into next season. He suffered a horrific injury and is still working his way back.
     
  7. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    The medical folks all said he would need a full season of playing time to return to form. So, no panic button need be hit until next season.
     
  8. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    Those who are reminded us of the late and unexpected surgery are doing this thread a favor. The lifting, jumping, and explosive exercises that a player does to get ready for the season--he was more or less deprived of those. In fact the last time that he probably did them full bore was before last season. That shit matters. They can't allocate the same time during the season to do those programs. It's not an accident that his ability to finish by guys and over guys is limited. And it affects everything downstream too. If you don't have to hedge against driving the closeout, then challenging every shot is easy. There's no chance that he makes a leap this year. Only incremental progress is possible imo, and clearly that's not linear either.
     
  9. maufman

    maufman Anderson Cooper x Mr. Rogers Staff Member Dope Gold Supporter

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    Done. :(
     
  10. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    If he comes out for 2019-2020 performing exactly as he is now, I'd be concerned. Not until then.
     
  11. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    Don't disagree, but isn't this a strong argument for giving more of his minutes now to Brown and Smart?
     
  12. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    Not if Hayward needs minutes in hopes of him being an important part of the rotation by the postseason.
     
  13. mcpickl

    mcpickl Member SoSH Member

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    No. Because if Hayward is going to get better at playing basketball, it will be by playing basketball.
     
  14. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    I was specifically responding to the suggestion that he wouldn't be ready until next year.
     
  15. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    That's with the assumption that he needs to keep playing, not take another 8 months off.
     
  16. mcpickl

    mcpickl Member SoSH Member

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    And I'm specifically responding, to be ready for next year he has to play NBA basketball. Now is the time for him to play.
     
  17. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Unless he is released to make room for Allen Iverson.
     
  18. Rustjive

    Rustjive Member SoSH Member

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    I have a pet theory - what are the chances that Hayward's performance is chiefly due to fatigue/lack of conditioning right now? He was off his feet for a long time (in April, he said 'The biggest gain I’ve made is in being able to do single leg calf raises with both legs.'). In late June he had surgery again. How much can you keep up your conditioning in the face of that? Rookies hit the rookie wall despite playing and practicing the year before, then doing draft workouts etc. Why not Hayward? All these shots he's missing, his inconsistency, that's a classic sign of fatigue. I simply can't believe the player we saw against Minnesota or against Dallas somehow got worse after playing more games.

    This could be just the eternal Hayward optimist/apologist in me though. I'm very interested to see how he does after the all-star break though.
     
  19. mostman

    mostman Member SoSH Member

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    If it’s conditioning, the team should know, and they should be working on it. Not playing him 26 minutes a game. You can’t gain conditioning just by playing. And it’s difficult to train hard if you are playing 26 minutes every other night.
     
  20. Rustjive

    Rustjive Member SoSH Member

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    Compare to Tatum last year though - he kept his minutes even after it was very apparent he had hit the rookie wall.

    [​IMG]
     
    #320 Rustjive, Jan 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
  21. luckiestman

    luckiestman Son of the Harpy SoSH Member

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    The thing I don’t quite get is why he is sucking on wide open shots.
     
  22. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    I'd like to see a few of his minutes given to others, aside from Horford and Irving obviously. Brad and Danny don't seem to think so, so that's the breaks.

    The benefit of him playing live minutes are real though. He can see where his limitations really are. He can work on his timing and confidence. It's not trivial, it will almost certainly add up to a more useful Hayward in the playoffs.

    But hopefully we can avoid getting our hopes up too much. This is largely who he is, until he has a proper, healthy offseason on which to build a more explosive foundation.

    edit: Brad was asked in post-game about giving Semi minutes in place of Hayward. I think that BJ has a press credential.
     
    #322 Jimbodandy, Jan 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
  23. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    If you play BBall, try putting in 15 pounds weights on both legs and see how well you shoot.

    He's not sure of what he can or cannot do and he doesn't have the luxury of just throwing up shots to see what sticks.
     
  24. luckiestman

    luckiestman Son of the Harpy SoSH Member

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    I understand, but I saw him killing shots in off season workouts. I get that offseason workouts are not game speed, but I just thought he was going to be better on wide open stuff.
     
  25. reggiecleveland

    reggiecleveland sublime Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    If this was remotely accurate he shouldn't be playing.
     
  26. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    His confidence is absolutely shot. There are physical issues, too, obviously, but his problems are not only physical.
     
  27. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Why? The Cs have what, $80MM invested in him over the next 3 years. He'snot going to get better if he doesn't play. Plus, for better or for worse, Brad is clearly loyal to him.

    I just wish Brad would stop putting him on the court in crunch time.

    From this article:

    According to the NBA.com stats site, the Celtics have a net rating of +1.4 when Hayward is on the floor. When he’s off the floor though this has increased to a +11.4. That’s a full 10 points per 100 possessions better when Hayward is on the bench. Hayward was moved from the starting unit to the bench on November 19. For Hayward himself, it has made no difference. The Celtics still have a net rating of +1.4 when he’s on the floor. The rest of the team though has been even better since he was moved to the bench. When Hayward sits, since November 19, the Celtics have a net rating of 13.9.
     
  28. Ed Hillel

    Ed Hillel Wants to be startin somethin SoSH Member

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    Serious question, but if the main concern is working through injury, getting him back into basketball shape, and reestablishing confidence, can’t he play in the G League for the remainder of the season? This team can compete for a championship without him, especially if Brad add’s another piece this next week. If he’s blocking more consistent players, a change has to be made at some point.
     
  29. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    He doesn't need reps against suboptimal guys. He needs reps against the best.

    I'd prefer 21 minutes to 26 (and think that it matters), but whatever minutes he gets in the NBA are a crapload more valuable than anything in the G league.

    He's not learning the game. And the dropoff isn't like getting at bats in AAA. It's much bigger.
     
  30. Ed Hillel

    Ed Hillel Wants to be startin somethin SoSH Member

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    If it’s a health issue, why does the competition matter? The G league is still full of the top 1% of basketball players in the world. I’d compare it to a long rehab assignment in baseball.

    Edit - I see your belief the dropoff is bigger. Even so, if it’s a health thing it’s a health thing. And if he’s a complete zero half his nights on the court in Boston, he simply cannot stick around for too much longer for the season. The team has too much potential without him, and the team needs time to get the best rotation going before the playoffs.
     
  31. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    I'm not a doctor, but it's an explosiveness issue. Let's say that he has dropped off 10-15% of his prior attack, his physical akills exploding by and over guys. That's the 15% difference that made him a borderline all star instead of a borderline starter. Few of the guys in the G league have that, or they're already on someone's NBA roster. So he's not going to gauge and fine tune that missing part of his game. He'd likely go there and put up 25 every night and learn nothing. It might help his confidence to succeed like that, but it might hurt his confidence that his team even suggests it.
     
  32. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    We can argue about the benefits all day (I'm personally am skeptical). But there is absolutely zero chance that Hayward will be asked to play for the Red Claws.

    He is going to be given minutes in the 2nd unit, and probably top 7-8 minutes overall until it's determined he physically cannot do it. Assuming no improvement from Hayward, those minutes would probably average closer to 20 than to 25 as the season enters the stretch run, and may very well decrease in the playoffs. But he's not getting benched entirely, nor is he being sent to Maine. The NBA doesn't work that way, especially when it comes to a max free agent that was a perennial All Star before arriving.
     
  33. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    This might be encouraging if you want Brad to start adjusting his minutes. In January he played fewer minutes/game than any month this year, including October when he was on a restriction.

    Oct: 24.5
    Nov: 27.5
    Dec: 26.4
    Jan: 24.2

    Not a big drop, but it is one. More noticeable is that 6 of the 8 games where he's played his fewest minutes have come since 12/31. So it appears there is an adjustment happening. And one of those other 2 games was the game they destroyed Atlanta.



    He's had a weird month. January was his best shooting month by far by TS%, however he only shot 30.4% on threes, which are, for lack of a better term, more "visible". I think this is because this offense gets players open shots, so when he misses it's noticeable.

    Also odd, his FT% dropped bigtime in January--he was over 90% in November/December and was at 75% in January. His rebounds and assists also fell off. So, SSS alert, but some of these things might show as fatigue issues.
     
  34. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    Jeez, can't a guy have his irony anymore? Talk about anodyne.

    edit: look, let's compromise. Find me another suitable star wars quote. "C'mon baby, hold together"? "He's no good to me dead"?
     
  35. maufman

    maufman Anderson Cooper x Mr. Rogers Staff Member Dope Gold Supporter

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    It’s still your OP — go ahead and edit it.
     
  36. HowBoutDemSox

    HowBoutDemSox Member SoSH Member

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    “Um, everything's under control, situation normal.”
    “This isn’t the Gordon Hayward you’re looking for.”
    “Help us, Carmelo Anthony, you’re my only hope.”
    “I find your lack of faith disturbing.”
    “What a piece of junk!”
     
  37. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    $30M? We can almost buy our own All-Star for that!
     
  38. reggiecleveland

    reggiecleveland sublime Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    The idea that he has 30lbs strapped to his feet was part of what I disputed. If he was physically that bad, he would be unable to play.

    The best hope for this year, is he figures out his stroke with this new, worse body and can be a valuable bench shooter.
     
  39. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    I didn't say that GH was playing like he had weights on his legs. I was trying to make the point that if a poster wanted some empathy in what GH was going through, strap on some ankle weights. You know, kind of like an analogy.
     
  40. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    https://www.masslive.com/celtics/20...athleticism-slowly-starting-to-come-back.html

    There's been a few posts here about how the second procedure Hayward had set him back. Here he is:

     
  41. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    As mentioned elsewhere, a good playoff run from Gordon drastically changes the Celtics leverage and options this offseason. For starters, Kyrie might re-up regardless of AD. I'm cautiously optimistic: that alley-oop last night looked qualitatively different from his other dunk attempts this year.
     
  42. The Social Chair

    The Social Chair Member SoSH Member

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    I don't think we see the old Gordon until next season. That dunk last night is still far off from this guy.

     
  43. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    That dunk on Randle at 0:25 is ridiculous. I forgot how explosive he was. It's weird though: a lot of those clips are off his right leg, and you have to think that should come back totally fine, no?
     
  44. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Again, I don't love game score as a metric but as shorthand it works fine. Of Hayward's top 10 game scores this season, six happened in the December through February period with last night's game against the New York Knox his tenth highest of the season. The guy is making progress, albeit in a non-linear fashion.

    Interestingly, Hayward must like playing on the first calendar day of the month given that three of his top ten game scores occurred on the first of November, the first of December (30 point game vs the T-Wolves), and last night.
     
  45. ifmanis5

    ifmanis5 Member SoSH Member

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  46. NomarsFool

    NomarsFool Member SoSH Member

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    Absolutely. Earlier in the season, I felt like he was one good game out of every 10. Then, maybe one out of 5. Lately it's been one out of every 3, which means he actually is able to contribute. I think we need to see more Hayward, more Brown, and less Rozier. Gosh, Rozier's been awful the last few games. And please, someone sit Smart down to talk about appropriate shooting again. 0-8 from 3? What did he take the other night, 9 3's?
     
  47. tbb345

    tbb345 Member SoSH Member

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    Since I’ve shit on him a lot, I think it’s only fair to post now. He looked awesome last night. Hopefully it’s a harbinger of things to come.

    And Nomar, At Least last night, Smart was wife fucking open on at least 6 of those 3’s. Smart has to take those
     
  48. HowBoutDemSox

    HowBoutDemSox Member SoSH Member

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    Woah there, I know his shot was off, but this is a bridge too far
     
  49. Koufax

    Koufax Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I didn't think GH was that special last night other than that his shots were falling. Admittedly I don't fully understand his contributions on the defensive side of the ball, but I didn't see any aggressive moves to the basket or other displays of great athleticism that seem to have been his calling card before the injury. Granted, he has a good understanding of the game and plays it well, but if every game was like last night's, I don't think he's a max player.
     
  50. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    I'm using your words here--but if every game was 8 of 11 and 6 of 7 from three, then of course he's a max player.
     

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