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Gordon Hayward 2018-2019: I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Discussion in 'Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Celtics Forum' started by InstaFace, Jul 13, 2018.

  1. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    With respect to GH's progress, last night, I just finished watching the second UT loss.

    There was a play in the 4Q where GH had a breakout after a steal and he went to dunk the ball. He was above the rim but just barely and Mitchell (I think) caught up to him and blocked the shot.

    I suspect that wouldn't happen now.

    Great to see.
     
  2. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    Not at all trying to single anyone out with this, but it's hard for a lot of people to imagine what the 80s were like for 3pt shots.

    If you were drafted before 1986 (IIRC), the first 3pt shot you ever took was in the NBA. Larry Bird learned how to shoot the three in the NBA and never averaged much over 3 attempts per game, despite being damn good at it.

    Most guys were such ass that it was simply not a shot that they took except in the last few minutes of a game. For that reason, low post guys were still pretty valuable.
     
  3. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Coaches used to tell players NOT to shoot from behind the 3-pt line when it was first implemented. Prior to '85 when the NCAA finally added the line the thought of taking a 20-footer instead of passing the ball for a 15-footer was enough for a coaches head to fall off......the old school coaches from the 60's and 70's who were still around taught the closer the shot the better regardless of who was shooting it. Hard to imagine that it's taken 30 years for the mid-range game to be recognized for its flaws.
     
  4. Saints Rest

    Saints Rest Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I seem to recall that there was some significance (I don't know if it was something that had never been done by anyone, by any Celtic, or just a rare occurrence) that McHale finished the season with FG% over 60% and FT % over 80%. Around the same time, Bird finished a season 50% and 90%.
     
  5. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    I think we are seeing somewhat of a return for low post guys, at least ones who can defend and are good offensive rebounders. Rebounding numbers for low post bigs have been trending upwards as more players move away from the rim and all those offensive rebounds lead to easy baskets. Capela is the obvious example. He's scoring 18 a night in large part because he's averaging 4.8 ORPG, which lets him shoot 65% from the field, and also because there is less defensive resistance. If you have one of these guys, it's an easy 15+ points a night on decent to great efficiency without even having to run plays for the guys.
     
  6. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Yes I believe McHale was the first as Cedric Maxwell almost did it a couple years prior. This year we have 2 players, Sabonis and DeAndre, with an outside chance of achieving this and a third player (Mine and Danny Darwinism's draft binkie) Pascal Siakam having a legitimate chance if he can get his FT% up from its current 78.2%.
     
  7. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    I remember at one point in the early 90s, some people were claiming the 3 point shot was racist because it favored white basketball players. Glad that has been put to rest.
     
  8. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    This is still shocking AF... but then I realized you are probably talking about DeAndre Ayton who also has a chance alongside Jordan.
     
  9. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    I was referring to Jordan but Ayton is actually right up there with Siakam in FT and at 59.9% FG
     
  10. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    It's still too early to say how far back he will or won't make it, athletically-speaking. The last bit of physical recovery will take the longest time.
    At some level, all of these cherry-picked numbers will look better than they actually are. It's just the nature of this approach. 30/8/9 or 28/9/9 would be basically just as good as 30/9/8, but they won't show up in this comparison. Adding the minutes cap makes it even worse.
     
  11. Al Zarilla

    Al Zarilla Member SoSH Member

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    True, unless he was double teamed.

    Hopefully onward and upward for Hayward now.
     
  12. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Even then. Splitting the double team was a routine move for him.
     
  13. Al Zarilla

    Al Zarilla Member SoSH Member

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    Also true. Funny, but because he played with Larry Bird, I didn't appreciate what an all time great player he was while he was playing. Probably same with Parish, who is not as high up there. DJ too. Danny, and some of Walton. What a team.
     
  14. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Don't forget 30-year old Scott Wedman who was a 2x All-Star including just two years prior and a prior 2nd Team All-Defensive player.
     
  15. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    He was kind of a strange player. Pedestrian rebounder for a big. Not a passer. Mostly played power forward, but had a back-to-the-basket offensive game more characteristic of a center. And it was the best low post game the NBA has ever seen. Oh, and before the broken foot he could hang with SFs on defense, making Bird's one-on-one defensive limitations a non-issue.

    Like Marcus Smart, I don't think there's another NBA player like him.
     
  16. bsj

    bsj Renegade Crazed Genius SoSH Member

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    Excellent all around game for Gordon.
     
  17. TomTerrific

    TomTerrific Member SoSH Member

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    I don't know, to me he still looks slow and unable to do what he really wants. His skill level is such that he can do a fair number of things anyway, but I just look at him and imagine what a little more confidence (and burst) in his legs would do.

    I say 6 more weeks and then let's see what we have.
     
  18. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    He's basically 35 year-old Manu in terms of what he brings to a team in his current state. That guy can definitely be in a closing lineup in the NBA Finals, but isn't a max player. Hopefully some of the explosion comes back.
     
  19. mikeot

    mikeot Member SoSH Member

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    Despite the loss to Detroit, I was heartened by Gordo’s pair of unabashed layups, possibly yip-free IMHO .
     
  20. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    I'll be happier when (if?) he starts dunking those again.

    I was also heartened by a 3P he took that was a step behind the 3P line. Even though he missed, I take that to mean that he feels better about his shot.
     
  21. Lose Remerswaal

    Lose Remerswaal Leaves after the 8th inning Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    But did Horford flinch?
     
  22. m0ckduck

    m0ckduck Member SoSH Member

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    On the defensive glass, yes. But the offensive boards, look out. Again, a strange player. I re-watched some of the 1985 Finals recently and was startled to find that McHale was clearly the best player on the floor for either team for extended stretches (particularly with Bird having banged up his shooting hand for that series).
     
  23. luckiestman

    luckiestman Son of the Harpy SoSH Member

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    I’ve been watching old Cs games on youtube. We are so fucking weird. I thought it was just me.
     
  24. HowBoutDemSox

    HowBoutDemSox Member SoSH Member

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    I'm glad that he can do it but I'd be perfectly happy if he never does it again.

     
  25. Spelunker

    Spelunker Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    I actually want him doing that lots. It's a good proxy for his athleticism and confidence being where they need to be.

    But I do hold my breath.
     
  26. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    It's also a mental hurdle. That's a good sign. And look at bench reaction. They know.

    Not sure I want Rozier throwing it though.
     
  27. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Gordon's favorite team to play against is most definitely the T-Wolves.
     
  28. chilidawg

    chilidawg Member SoSH Member

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    A couple minutes of GH feel good video:

     
  29. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    Following up the 35, a very nice 16/11/8 for Hayward tonight.
     
  30. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    He’s been totally engaged these past two games with the offense frequently running through him. It’s more similar to how he was used in Utah.
     
  31. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    His passing has been amazing but his rebounding tonight looked as good as its been since he arrived in Boston (tonight's 11 boards is his Boston high). Even if he doesn't score, if he can continue to help out on the boards, he is going to be very valuable for this team.
     
  32. mostman

    mostman Member SoSH Member

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    He was everywhere last night and his energy level was through the roof. I think last night was even better than the T-Wolves game.
     
  33. MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

    MyDaughterLovesTomGordon Member SoSH Member

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    I thought so, too, but maybe best of all was that he reported that he was "not where I want to be, but feel okay" in the post-game with Abby.

    There's still upside, as far as he's concerned.
     
  34. Red Averages

    Red Averages owes you $50 SoSH Member

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    He’s definitely being more agrresice instead of playing hot potato basketball. It’s amazing to see his progress in only a few months. Can’t wait to see how integral he is come April when the playoffs begin.
     
  35. richgedman'sghost

    richgedman'sghost Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Paging BigJohn....what are your your impressions of Gordon right now? Do you still think the Celtics should dump him for 2 used jockstraps and 3 basketballs?
     
  36. richgedman'sghost

    richgedman'sghost Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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  37. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    He'll shift seamlessly into how the past two games clearly prove that Kyrie is a cancer.
     
  38. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    Yes, the confidence and aggression and playmaking are all awesome and great to see. What I love most is the BBIQ, however, both on offense and defense. Much like Marcus, he sees the defensive play two steps ahead and makes great basketball plays. Same on offense. His passing and rebounding IQ is great. With Al, Gordon, and Smart out there, it is a stark reminder of the youth of both Brown and Tatum, whose physical skills are so far ahead of their mental ones still. Of course that's to be expected at their age, but personally I kinda forgot during last year's playoff run.

    It's a joy to watch "feel okay" Hayward do his thing and see how it benefits the team as a whole. Additionally, it reminds me of the ceiling of the young guys and how much better they can be, as these experienced guys can bequeath some of that BBIQ as well.
     
  39. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    And let's face it, 16/11/8 is not a max player.
     
  40. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    Hayward has had two good games. Actually I though his overall performance was better against the Mavs. Let's see how it goes from here. Maybe he has turned a corner.

    As for Kyrie, he's obviously their most talented player. What I'd like to see is balanced scoring performances like the one last night-- five guys in double figures and four more with eight apiece-- with Kyrie in the mix. They don't need Kyrie to take 25 shots a night. They do need him to make game-winning plays in crunch time.
     
  41. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    Lineups with Kyrie, Hayward, Horford, and Smart together should be off the charts for collective BBIQ. I'd love to see those 4 guys+ Tatum/Morris.
     
  42. Saints Rest

    Saints Rest Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    What you are describing in your last couple sentences is basically vintage Isaiah Thomas (the Hall of Famer from the Pistons) who would spend the first 40 minutes of a game being a pass first PG setting up his teammates and then would take over for that last few minutes of crunch time.
     
  43. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    Kyrie doesn't have to take over. He just has to play his game. You can't foul him (he's 90% plus from the line) and he's always a threat from deep. But IT got his teammates more involved, even at the end of games. He had the single season assist record until Stockton broke it.
     
  44. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    This may be more enjoyable to watch (for some) but I doubt that such balanced scoring is a championship winning team makeup. You generally want your best scorers shooting the ball and taking the most shots - and in turn scoring the most points.

    I am quite OK if Brad Wannamaker and Semi are not scoring 8 points a game
     
  45. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    I understand that most NBA teams feature their stars. But offenses work better when all five guys are credible threats. It opens up even more opportunities for the good scorers. There are also time when your stars are not on the floor and the second unit has to put up some points.
     
  46. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Kyrie has shown signs of putting some of that stuff together - best example his 4th Q against Memphis.

    Edit: Also, he is at his career high in assists per game and assists per 36 minutes, and the second highest assist rate of his career.
     
  47. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    Isiah.

    Isaiah plays for Denver.

    (your point, obviously, stands)
     
  48. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Well, he dresses in a sport coat for them anyway.
     
  49. TripleOT

    TripleOT Member SoSH Member

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    I was at the Mavs game. After a slow start, Hayward put in a Bird-like performance. He was incredibly efficient and did whatever his team needed him to do to control the game. The crowd was so happy for him. I've been at a handful of games this season, and this was the first time he didn't look like straight garbage.

    The almost triple double showed how much versatility GH brings to the team. He's most effective when he takes the ball into the paint. I read somewhere recently that he averaged 9 drives to the hoop his last year in Utah and only 4 early on this season. When he passes the ball when his feet are in the paint, something good usually happens.

    We haven't seen a lot of his dead eye shooting ability, but he was dialed in the last three quarters of the Minny game. Small sample size, but he's 36% from three on two days rest, and 53% from three on three or more. He's also way more efficient at home (45/38/90%) than on the road (37?27/88%). He's 47/41% with a point every two minutes at home, and 34/22% and a point every three minutes on the road.
     
  50. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    Seems really good at home but you said that until this game every one you saw was straight garbage. How unlucky.
     

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