GOATs

DannyDarwinism

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This is a really cool series, analyzing the 40 greatest NBA careers. He just put out #2 today, and maybe I shouldn't be shocked, but I am. Looking forward to his write up for #1. Reading up on the guys I never got to see play, like Russell, the Big O and Havlicek is pretty interesting. Read up on the methodology and the list here:

http://www.backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/

KG, Shaq and Reggie Miller being as high as they were was mildly surprising for me. A couple of current players who will likely shoot way up barring injury. Anywho, good read for NBA fans.

Masochists may also enjoy his "Deflategate Wiki", here's the summary: "Based on the available data — the estimations of the pre-game measurements, available environmental factors and halftime measurements — it is extremely unlikely that tampering occurred in the 2015 AFC Championship Game." He's a behavioral scientist and his resume reads like he's an LA guy, so I doubt he's a Pats fan.
 

snowmanny

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It's always so odd to me that Kareem is so rarely picked as the greatest player of all-time, or at least mentioned in the discussion. In many ways he's the most obvious pick (even moreso if one factors in his UCLA days)*, but he sort of got squeezed by Russell/Chamberlain on one end and by the advent of the dominating non-centers on the other (including one on his own team).

* Six titles, three NCAA titles, six MVPs, on two of the most dominant NBA teams ever - 16 years apart (1971 Bucks, 1987 Lakers).
 

InstaFace

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Ray Allen #40, Paul Pierce #35, Kevin Garnett #8, and they lost to #14 Kobe Bryant, past-his-prime Pau Gasol, and dreck? Those 2010 finals are my Macho Grande.

I don't mind the concept of Championship value-add Over Replacement Player, but his methodology seems suspect mathematically - an attempt to act like there's a quantitative basis to what is ultimately a scouting-based subjective evaluation. Now, reading the guy's articles, that's no sin - he clearly knows a ton about positioning and tactics and "all the little things" that don't show up in a box score, which makes for fascinating reading. But he seems to want it both ways.
 

Kliq

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Mar 31, 2013
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Kareem is often mentioned has having the Best NBA CAREER of all-time. I think if LeBron is ever going to pass Jordan; it will be because even though he doesn't have Jordan's rings; if he ends up with 40,000 career points, and played an elite level for 20 years, it will be hard to deny his status as the best player of all time.
 

BuellMiller

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Mar 25, 2015
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It's always so odd to me that Kareem is so rarely picked as the greatest player of all-time, or at least mentioned in the discussion. In many ways he's the most obvious pick (even moreso if one factors in his UCLA days)*, but he sort of got squeezed by Russell/Chamberlain on one end and by the advent of the dominating non-centers on the other (including one on his own team).

* Six titles, three NCAA titles, six MVPs, on two of the most dominant NBA teams ever - 16 years apart (1971 Bucks, 1987 Lakers).
He didn't really work hard enough on defense. And a lot of times, he didn't even run down court. And he didn't really try...except during the playoffs.
 

Muppet

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He didn't really work hard enough on defense. And a lot of times, he didn't even run down court. And he didn't really try...except during the playoffs.
My dad said he tried hard during Pilot School though, although there was a nasty incident with fish once.
 

wonderland

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Jul 20, 2005
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Ray Allen #40, Paul Pierce #35, Kevin Garnett #8, and they lost to #14 Kobe Bryant, past-his-prime Pau Gasol, and dreck? Those 2010 finals are my Macho Grande.
Past his prime Gasol? Huh?

He was 29 and in the prime of his career. He should’ve been the Finals MVP.
 

bankshot1

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I've watched the NBA for a long fucking time, seen a lot of strange games. I'm not a "conspiracy/game was fixed" fan, but that 4th qtr. of game 7 of Celts/Lakers '10 Finals still pisses me off. Fucking refs.
 

bankshot1

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Just eye-balled the 40 list.

Haven't read any of the write-ups, but what struck me, was that in a game that has become so 3-pointer/guard-wing centric, the top-10 of this list is dominated by guys who played the low-post.
 

reggiecleveland

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Kareem is overlooked for a perfect storm of reasons. Today in the 3pt era a dominant big man is dismissed without thought. As bankshot1 mentioned for most of the NBA's history they were the most important guys. It wasn't just tradition that made people draft bigs with early picks. Kareem defied narrative and stereotype, and aloof articulate black giant he always made many uncomfortable. There are also widely shared evidence that despite the immense unfairness if how he was viewed he chased away many willing to defend or help him by being, to put it mildly, an unpleasant human being.

Kareem is underrated in large because Magic is seen as the key player on the championship teams. While it is often brought up that Kobe was not the best player on several his championship teams it is rarely an argument used against Magic. Magic's epic clinching game as a rookie, and the fact Kareem was a shadow of himself by the 88 title create the impression that Magic was the man all the way through. Without doubt it was the dominance of Kareem that finally ended the Lakers own "curse" by carrying the Lakers in the 85 title. Magic was the more media friendly and savvy of the two and the false narrative that Magic taught Kareem to love the game hurt him. Kareem, and to lesser extent McHale are both swept out of consciousness by the Bird vs Magic narrative. Sadly one of the most seen signature plays for Kareem was the phantom call against the Pistons.

Interesting aside. A bunch of us coaches were sharing our "brushes with greatness" stories and this guy told us he went to a shooting clinic with Jerry West. Besides telling us the 70 year old logo didn't miss a shot during his 45 minute session, he said Weest had said if Kareem and been five years older or Wilt five years younger, Bird-Magic would have been nothing. He said KAreem ignited Wilt more than anything. Wilt knew he was individually better than Russell, and really only had to battle Russell at one end, but Kareem pushed him, and he thought old Wilt vs Kareem was the best Wilt he ever saw. Jerry saw them both as tragic figures that could have had an incredible rivalry that would leave both of them sharing GOAT honors, as Bird and Magic did at one time. But both were lonely forces of nature.
 

lexrageorge

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Jul 31, 2007
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Kareem is overlooked for a perfect storm of reasons. Today in the 3pt era a dominant big man is dismissed without thought. As bankshot1 mentioned for most of the NBA's history they were the most important guys. It wasn't just tradition that made people draft bigs with early picks. Kareem defied narrative and stereotype, and aloof articulate black giant he always made many uncomfortable. There are also widely shared evidence that despite the immense unfairness if how he was viewed he chased away many willing to defend or help him by being, to put it mildly, an unpleasant human being.

Kareem is underrated in large because Magic is seen as the key player on the championship teams. While it is often brought up that Kobe was not the best player on several his championship teams it is rarely an argument used against Magic. Magic's epic clinching game as a rookie, and the fact Kareem was a shadow of himself by the 88 title create the impression that Magic was the man all the way through. Without doubt it was the dominance of Kareem that finally ended the Lakers own "curse" by carrying the Lakers in the 85 title. Magic was the more media friendly and savvy of the two and the false narrative that Magic taught Kareem to love the game hurt him. Kareem, and to lesser extent McHale are both swept out of consciousness by the Bird vs Magic narrative. Sadly one of the most seen signature plays for Kareem was the phantom call against the Pistons.

Interesting aside. A bunch of us coaches were sharing our "brushes with greatness" stories and this guy told us he went to a shooting clinic with Jerry West. Besides telling us the 70 year old logo didn't miss a shot during his 45 minute session, he said Weest had said if Kareem and been five years older or Wilt five years younger, Bird-Magic would have been nothing. He said KAreem ignited Wilt more than anything. Wilt knew he was individually better than Russell, and really only had to battle Russell at one end, but Kareem pushed him, and he thought old Wilt vs Kareem was the best Wilt he ever saw. Jerry saw them both as tragic figures that could have had an incredible rivalry that would leave both of them sharing GOAT honors, as Bird and Magic did at one time. But both were lonely forces of nature.
In addition to the above, I would posit that Kareem was a star of the decade of the 1970's, a decade during which the NBA was at its nadir in popularity for a number of reasons. And by the end of the 70's he was almost sort of "forgotten". His last appearance in the Finals was in 1974, a series he lost to Cowens' Celtics and which marked the beginning of the end for Kareem in Milwaukee. He followed that up by demanding a trade to LA once Milwaukee DNQ'ed the following season, which didn't help his image as being a somewhat unpleasant person. His first few Laker teams did not achieve much until Magic showed up: DNQ, a broom job by Walton's Trailblazers in the Conference Finals, and two early losses to Dennis Johnson's Seattle Supersonics. None of that was really Kareem's fault; in fact, the Lakers would certainly have fared far worse without him. Those last two pre-Magic Laker teams were starting to resemble the teams that would dominate the west in the early and mid-80's with key future contributors Jamaal Wilkes, Norm Nixon, and Michael Cooper all joining the roster (and Adrian Dantley!). In an alternate universe, it would have been interesting to see what Kareem's legacy would have been had Gail Goodrich decided to retire as a Laker instead of "magically" opting for one last contract with the New Orleans Jazz (the pick the Lakers got in return for Goodrich turned into Magic).

Regarding that last paragraph: interesting story regarding Wilt vs Kareem, and I would tend to agree. If you look in basketball-reference, the two centers had some epic battles during Kareem's rookie season. It was Kareem's Bucks that stopped the Lakers record winning streak in 1972, and it was Kareem's Bucks that gave the Lakers the most trouble during the 1972 playoffs. But even during the 1972 Championship run, Wilt was no longer able to keep up with the younger Kareem. Counting playoffs, the two centers split 18 games, and I agree it would have been fun to see the two titans play each other at their peak. It also would have been fun to see a peak Russell vs a peak Kareem; the analysis of Russell's defense against opposing centers in the linked article is really something to see.

And, as much as I love today's NBA game, I do sometimes miss the days of two dominant low post players slugging it out in the paint while scoring 30+ points apiece.
 

reggiecleveland

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I

And, as much as I love today's NBA game, I do sometimes miss the days of two dominant low post players slugging it out in the paint while scoring 30+ points apiece.
This reminds of what launch angle, etc has done to baseball. Homeruns and 3 pointers are so valuable it makes little sense to focus on anything else. But, it is not always the most pleasing result. I wonder if the NBA is considering any tweaks to make 3s a little harder or posting up more valuable, maybe more fouls within the key.
 

bankshot1

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You don't want to watch a game of foul shots. They could move the 3-point arc further back, making it a tougher shot and increasing the reward/risk trade-off of the 2 point shot, and presumably put greater value on a players with low-post skills.