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Giancarlo Stanton Stokes Baseball's Great Home-Run Debate

Discussion in 'MLB Discussion' started by SoxJox, Sep 13, 2017.

  1. SoxJox

    SoxJox Member SoSH Member

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    Interesting WSJ article from Jared Stanton.

    Article also speaks to why the discussion of home runs, unlike many other sports, even generates such passionate interest and debate, and why historical and situational context is a factor.
     
    #1 SoxJox, Sep 13, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  2. smastroyin

    smastroyin simpering whimperer Dope SoSH Member

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    I wonder if the question is nearly as interesting if he ends up at 57.

    Actually, I mostly don't think it is interesting at all. Like a political argument, it simply comes down to whether you are an asterisk type or if you are not. MLB has decided that the "steroid era" doesn't need asterisks. And frankly they shouldn't. I understand it is in our recent memory. But, you know, I don't hear a lot of calls for Chris Sale to be acknowledged for his innings because he's not pitching in a 4 man rotation era, etc. It really only seems that the HR record gets people all twisted in knots. Which I guess is interesting psychologically in terms of fandom.

    Anyway, Stanton needs a hot streak to get there. He has 19 games left and 54 HR. 30 of his 54 HR came in a 48 game stretch from July 5 - August 29. That's an incredible pace that is unlikely to continue. In the 13 games since August 29 he has hit 3, which matches his pace from before the streak.
     
  3. Marciano490

    Marciano490 Urological Expert SoSH Member

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    Ruth predated steroids, but I never understood why people were so sure Maris wasn't on them.
     
  4. Kliq

    Kliq Member SoSH Member

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    Bonds' record season was +24 over his previous career high. Maris' record season was +22.

    Another thing about the steroid guys is that they were hitting against pitchers who were also often juicing. The effects on a pitcher juicing vs a hitter juicing are different, but it is part of the discussion. The steroid guys were not hitting of the same pitchers Ruth and Maris were teeing off against.
     
  5. Marciano490

    Marciano490 Urological Expert SoSH Member

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    Are pitchers helped as much by steroids as hitters? Weren't guys like Johnson and Matthewson throw in the mid-90s even way back when? Seems like there are a lot of scrawny guys who can still hit upper 90s; I can't think of too many fellas with a slight build that were hitting over 40 home runs. I know that's not super scientific.
     
  6. Kliq

    Kliq Member SoSH Member

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    Someone else has much more knowledge on this than I do; but I've read years ago that pitchers use steroids more frequently than hitters. The idea being that they aid in the recovery process that pitchers need in between starts.

    We have no idea how fast dead-ball pitchers were throwing; I imagine that it was significantly slower than the average speed today. Matthewson wrote in his book "Pitching in a Pinch" that one of the flaws of many pitchers of the day was their desire to throw fast all the time and that he would only break out his hardest stuff a couple of times a game. I think the fact that these guys were able to throw enormous amounts of innings with little time to rest and they were effective for decades kind of proves that they were not putting the strain on their arms that the pitcher of the modern day does; which means they were probably throwing a lot lighter.
     
  7. doc

    doc Member SoSH Member

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  8. doc

    doc Member SoSH Member

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    It's remotely possible that Maris was on them, the first known use of anabolic steroids in sports was synthetic testosterone in the 1956 Olympics among Russian wrestlers. Baseball players in general were late to the game with weight training to improve performance so I doubt it.


    Oh and those early steroids date back to the 30's so Ruth doesn't pre date them by much.

    Maris probably used amphetamines, but looking that up I found the story of Mantle and Dr Max Jacobson. Apparently the hip abscess Mantle had in 1961 was from an injection of amphetamines and primitive steroids.
     
    #8 doc, Sep 13, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  9. Marciano490

    Marciano490 Urological Expert SoSH Member

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    Do you have a source for that? I thought I'd read it was around 1938, but I'll check that as well.
     
  10. doc

    doc Member SoSH Member

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    Only Wikipedia right now, I'm looking through their sources. I did find that some pitcher in the 1890's injected himself with ground up monkey testicles. Sounds like a good way to get AIDS or some other horrible virus.

    Also look at my edit on the fly above.
     
  11. Marbleheader

    Marbleheader Dope Dope

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    I think we need to start treating baseball records like all the other sports, they really don't matter all that much. We can appreciate what Stanton is doing independent of Ruth or Bonds or anyone else.
     
  12. Marciano490

    Marciano490 Urological Expert SoSH Member

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    Yeah, that's all I've found so far, but I could've sworn I read something about Nazi experimentation, as they were being used to treat patients in the early 1930s. But, maybe that was just an Indiana Jones movie?
     
  13. doc

    doc Member SoSH Member

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  14. SumnerH

    SumnerH Malt Liquor Picker Dope

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    Ruth tried sheep testicles and other stuff. Doubt it did anything, but it wasn't for lack of interest. Pud Galvin was using Brown-Sequard extract before 1900. http://www.history.com/news/baseballs-first-fountain-of-youth
     
  15. doc

    doc Member SoSH Member

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    No the Nazi's and the Russians did things with steroids and speed with soldiers, The right mix of the 2 and you can elicit a pre-psychotic rage where they can follow simple orders but don't need to sleep or eat for days and really, really like to kill.
     
  16. doc

    doc Member SoSH Member

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    Yeah he was also the guy with the monkey testicle extract

    I guess we know where the nickname came from now
     
  17. Marciano490

    Marciano490 Urological Expert SoSH Member

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    Yeah, I think half the guys I used to lift with figured out that same combo.
     
  18. doc

    doc Member SoSH Member

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    Better living through chemistry
     
  19. adam42381

    adam42381 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    What makes people assume Stanton is clean? I have no idea, but the dude is pretty jacked.
     
  20. kenneycb

    kenneycb Hates Goose Island Beer; Loves Backdoor Play SoSH Member

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    I think the assumption is that if he's been doping, he's been doing it since he entered into the league. His power profile has remained more or less consistent when not getting hit in inopportune places by pitchers.
     
  21. trekfan55

    trekfan55 Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I know it's not perfect, but there is widespread testing now in MLB. Several players have divulged how many times they have been tested. Maybe the Union will agree to blood tests and to freezing samples but at least players are being tested now.
     
  22. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Maybe here (it suggests that Hitler himself used some kind of steroids): https://www.si.com/more-sports/2008/03/11/steroid-timeline
     
  23. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Stanton's own comments from the WSJ article were a truncated version of what he told a group of Florida reporters. He's much more nuanced about it than was presented by the WSJ

    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-marlins/fl-sp-hyde-marlins-stanton-20170816-story.html

    Imagine the hubbub if the Marlins still had last season's hitting coach
     
  24. Montana Fan

    Montana Fan Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    A friend of mine played OL in the NFL from mid-70's to the mid-80's. One of the guys he played next to was shooting testosterone straight out of corpses in the 70's. Not sure when that practice originated or if it would have an ongoing effect without being injected every gameday.
     
  25. Lose Remerswaal

    Lose Remerswaal Leaves after the 8th inning Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Oh you didn't know?

    Looks like he called someone!

     
  26. NJ_Sox_Fan

    NJ_Sox_Fan Member SoSH Member

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    I know MLB tests now, but I'd imagine they're fairly easy for people who want to, to beat. I have a hard time believing that all of a sudden a juiced ball is what's causing the most HRs ever, and by a wide margin.

    Either way, I'm fine with it
     
  27. BigMike

    BigMike Dope Dope

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    Yes there were experiments with Steroids and soldiers etc dating back to the 30s

    Doc is right in that the first known effective use of steroids in Athletics was in the 1956 Olympics. Doesn't mean other people didn't try to cheat prior to that. Doesn't mean there wasn't even someone who lucked into some physical improvement prior to 1956, but that is the first real case of proven success,

    And it was somewhere in the early to mid 1960s where they really started to become more common, and then probably into the 1980s when the science really matured. I do have no doubt in my mind there are members of the hall who have used them. Won't make accusations, I have no idea, but it seems very unlikely that given the 30-35 year span from when steroids were common for athletes to the point where baseball started caring that none of the best players used.

    In terms of Stanton. Could he be natural. Sure why not. I have no doubt a person with dedicate strength training for 15 years, specifically focused o the sport could achieve that physique. Could he be enhanced, certainly, he did sure seem to have a huge jump from a junior in HS to his draft day, especially in weight/strength (was listed at 165 as a Jr in HS, 205 at draft), but that might be just sloppy measurements.

    What I don't believe in any way is that 2017 is a product of Stanton suddenly starting to use PED
     
  28. simplicio

    simplicio Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

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    972
    I find that more believable than the idea that massive league-wide organized doping started abruptly at the all-star break last year, don't you?
     

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