Fire Clode?

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MiracleOfO2704

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As of right now, the Bruins are in second place in the Atlantic, 9 point behind Montreal. However, the third (Toronto) and fourth (Ottawa) place teams both have 6 games in hand, and the first team out in the conference (Carolina) have 4 games in hand. So, while the Bruins' position is solid, they're a precariously placed team, and a third straight DNQ for the playoffs is very possible.

One thing I've noticed popping up in the game threads is a belief that Claude Julien's job might be in danger. Unlike previous years, though, this isn't based in tired myths about his coaching style (HE HATES KIDS! HE'D RATHER PLAY GRINDERS OVER SKILL PLAYERS!), it seems like this time, the team's inconsistency is the reason people think he's done if they drop out of a playoff position.

So, do you think Julien's on the hot seat? If so, why?
 

DJnVa

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Can I just say that having 6 games in hand halfway through the season is stupid.
 

joe dokes

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Can I just say that having 6 games in hand halfway through the season is stupid.
Yeah. I don't think I've ever seen that in 45+ years of watching. Obviously due to "bye weeks," but whatever. While it does make the Bruins position precarious, it has the other teams playing a lot of games in short time, so hopefully there's some downside to those teams.

As for the Coach . . . i dont think he's on the hot seat as far as in-season firing. But a DNQ and he's out.
 

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I don't think there's any question that if the Bruins have another DNQ, then Clode's gone.

I guess the better question is Would that be fair, and I don't have an answer for that. It wasn't Clode who re-upped McQuaid and KMiller to stupid contracts.
 

cshea

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I am on #teamclode. There has been enough progress this season that I feel his job should be safe. I don't mean to keep harping on the analytics, but last season they were middling-to-poor in all areas; this year they are elite. There was very little roster turnover, essentially just Backes in for Eriksson and Carlo in for Seidenberg. Whatever system adjustments Claude has made, it is working. The team has a talent issue, particularly the depth of the roster. I think he has done a good job with what he has been given. The defense alone has basically taken a 180, and the personnel is the same other than Carlo.

The issues that do fall in his lap are the home record and the slow starts. He needs to find an answer there.
 

RIFan

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I'm a big Clode supporter and I wouldn't protest a coaching change. The situation they are in is almost entirely on the players, but sometimes it comes down to needing a new voice in the room. As they say, "you can't fire the players".

If the Bruins DNQ, I suspect he'll resign before they decide to fire him. He'll also have a new job about 5 minutes after that.
 

TFP

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There was very little roster turnover, essentially just Backes in for Eriksson and Carlo in for Seidenberg.
Not sure I agree there. Shithead, Talbot, Ferraro, Kempainen, Stempniak, Randell, and Connolly are out and Moore, Nash, Schaller, Blidh and Czarnik are in. I think there has definitely been a talent upgrade in that switch overall.

I think if they don't make the playoffs this year, there will and should be consequences. I don't think it's primarily Claude's fault, but he'll be the one to go.
 
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ifmanis5

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I'm fine with moving on (would have been fine moving on years ago too) but he's not the one making personnel decisions which have generally handcuffed him.

Just as important, who do we like as a replacement?
 

cshea

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Not sure I agree there. Shithead, Talbot, Ferraro, Kempainen, Stempniak, Randell, and Connolly are out and Moore, Nash, Schaller, Blidh and Czarnik are in. I think there has definitely been a talent upgrade in that switch overall.

I think if they don't make the playoffs this year, there will and should be consequences. I don't think it's primarily Claude's fault, but he'll be the one to go.
Fair enough, but I don't think it is a huge talent upgrade. A lot of JAG's in there.
 

TFP

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Fair enough, but I don't think it is a huge talent upgrade. A lot of JAG's in there.
True, but a lot of the guys they're replacing are even less than JAGs.

I do kind of miss Ferraro, I think he would fit in very well on this team and wish they had brought him back.
 

begranter

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I don't think it really matters because by the time the Bruins are competitive again Claude won't be here anymore for one reason or another. That said, I'd rather see Cam and his patsy Don go. Their roster management has been poor at best, and it's a crying shame they're wasting the tail end of prime Bergeron years on a rebuild. There have been so many roster mis-steps since 2011 and Neely is #1 on my list as to why. Sure, Chia had a lot to do with it, but Neely signed off on all those moves, especially the big ones.
 

Maximus

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I am a Clode supporter but the home record and slow starts are maddening, he may be losing the room. If they DNQ for a 3rd straight season, there is no way he survives but he'll find another job in short order. Sweeney has been marginally better in roster building in year 2 (ie. Carlo, Backes, Moore, Czarnik) but his multi year deals for McQuaid and K. Miller and paying Krug $5M a year are not good.
 

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I guess I don't know how Clode is supposed to get these guys to regain their scoring touch. There's only so much a coach can do.

The home record is baffling, they play well on the road in general but are often flatfooted and slow on home ice. There were a few seasons in the pre-Claude dark years that were like that too.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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He's the longest tenured coach (10 years in June) in the NHL (1 year+ more than Queenville). Tippett in AZ is next, one year shy of Queenville and then comes Hitchcock in SL at just over 5 years.

There's only one Bill Belichick. Unless the team turns things around and makes the playoffs and wins a round (hopefully the college kids can help) I'm good at saying it's time to try a new voice.
 

lexrageorge

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I don't believe the team's failures this season have anything to do with Claude. He's given plenty of playing time the likes of Carlo. He's had to deal with a number of rolling injuries as well, but I'm sure all teams deal with that to some extent.

The roster is middle of the road NHL caliber. That's on Sweeney and Neely, but Chiarelli had something to do with that as well. Biggest mistakes were trading for Rinaldo and extending both McQuaid and K Miller. I'm a bigger fan of Krug than most here, so I'm really not bothered by his contract, but the other two extensions were unforced egregious errors. However, it's not clear that the team would be a whole lot better had those moves not been made. The barren drafts and even worse trades of the late Chia years really put the team in a bind, as well as some of the contract decisions made by him. Probably need another season to truly emerge from that mess.

For all those reasons, I'm quite sure that Sweeney's job is safe for one more season regardless, and Neely is likely here for the long term. Which means that Claude is the scapegoat if there is a 3rd straight DNQ
 

RIFan

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Slight sidetrack, but since others opened the door I'll put it out there. If the personnel moves are more to blame and in particular McQuaid and Miller, what personnel moves would have them higher in the standings. I assume many would jettison M&M. What would that salary have bought? Would it really have made a difference?
 

mauf

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How long can a well-run NHL team stay near the top of the league without a talent like Crosby/Ovechkin/Kane on the roster? I don't follow the Bruins as closely as the other Boston sports teams, but I wonder if we're trying to assess blame for something that is largely due to (a) the cyclical nature of the sport under the most recent CBA, and (b) subpar drafts by a guy who isn't with the organization anymore.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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That's a good question but I don't think that's the question here. This team certainly isn't a Top 4 squad, but look at their road record vs. home record and how they just play like shit every 4 or 5 games (ie: yesterday). That's not talent, that's leadership. So it's either on Claude or it's on Chara/Bergeron/Rask and it's easier to get rid of a coach . . .
 

MiracleOfO2704

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As for the Coach . . . i dont think he's on the hot seat as far as in-season firing. But a DNQ and he's out.
I think if they don't make the playoffs this year, there will and should be consequences. I don't think it's primarily Claude's fault, but he'll be the one to go.
I feel like this is why a lot of people on the board think he could be fired. My view is that, if he's going to be fired for missing the playoffs, why this time?

After 2014-15, it would've made sense since Chiarelli hired him and the new GM should bring in his coaching staff. Julien stayed because Neely stayed in-house and the options weren't great.

After 2015-16, it would've made sense as they collapsed down the stretch (they led the division with 3-4 weeks to go) and Sweeney invested a bit in that team's depth under the belief that they could get in and do damage with Eriksson before he became a UFA. Julien stayed because they honestly saw the roster for what it was: not good enough. That led to a purge of the players TFP mentioned, ushering in something closer to the youth movement a few of us advocated post-Chiarelli firing.

If he's fired after this season, with the progress made by players like Carlo, it'll feel like a soccer player that gets a yellow card for "accumulation"; it can be justified, but it'll be an odd decision. That, and Sweeney does seem to buy into next-generation stats, which suggest the team is better than their record. I don't know if Sweeney's a good GM or not, but with all the information he has, I'd like to think he'd be a bit more patient.
 

lexrageorge

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I feel like this is why a lot of people on the board think he could be fired. My view is that, if he's going to be fired for missing the playoffs, why this time?

After 2014-15, it would've made sense since Chiarelli hired him and the new GM should bring in his coaching staff. Julien stayed because Neely stayed in-house and the options weren't great.

After 2015-16, it would've made sense as they collapsed down the stretch (they led the division with 3-4 weeks to go) and Sweeney invested a bit in that team's depth under the belief that they could get in and do damage with Eriksson before he became a UFA. Julien stayed because they honestly saw the roster for what it was: not good enough. That led to a purge of the players TFP mentioned, ushering in something closer to the youth movement a few of us advocated post-Chiarelli firing.

If he's fired after this season, with the progress made by players like Carlo, it'll feel like a soccer player that gets a yellow card for "accumulation"; it can be justified, but it'll be an odd decision. That, and Sweeney does seem to buy into next-generation stats, which suggest the team is better than their record. I don't know if Sweeney's a good GM or not, but with all the information he has, I'd like to think he'd be a bit more patient.
I agree with everything you said; I'd rather the team remain patient than attempt the quick fix and fire Clode. However, I do believe there are 2 overriding issues that work against Julien:

1.) His tenure. It's been stated upthread, but it will be too easy for Jacobs/Neely/Sweeney to conclude that the players have tuned out Julien after all these years and that perhaps a change is therefore in order.

2.) It's not Sweeney I'm worried about when it comes to lack of patience. Jacobs and Neely love to throw around "accountability" and "unacceptable" all the time. Not sure if that's simply fan service to the season ticket holders, or if they really do feel that making the playoffs is mandatory this season.

After last season's collapse, Sweeney was given enough rope to make the decision to retain Claude. Another DNQ, and it's probably Neely saying "Don, I hate to do this, but Mr. Jacobs is demanding we do something. So it's either you or Claude". Guess who gets shown the door....
 

veritas

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I agree with everything you said; I'd rather the team remain patient than attempt the quick fix and fire Clode. However, I do believe there are 2 overriding issues that work against Julien:

1.) His tenure. It's been stated upthread, but it will be too easy for Jacobs/Neely/Sweeney to conclude that the players have tuned out Julien after all these years and that perhaps a change is therefore in order.

2.) It's not Sweeney I'm worried about when it comes to lack of patience. Jacobs and Neely love to throw around "accountability" and "unacceptable" all the time. Not sure if that's simply fan service to the season ticket holders, or if they really do feel that making the playoffs is mandatory this season.

After last season's collapse, Sweeney was given enough rope to make the decision to retain Claude. Another DNQ, and it's probably Neely saying "Don, I hate to do this, but Mr. Jacobs is demanding we do something. So it's either you or Claude". Guess who gets shown the door....
I think Sweeney's track record in scouting, drafting, and acquiring young talent is phenomenal and if he gets fired this year, we'll be thanking him over the next 5-10 years for what he did rebuilding this team. As far as his professional talent evaluation and cap management, there is plenty of room for criticism, but I don't think it's been particularly below average as far as NHL GMs go. And hopefully he can learn and improve on that going forward. Two things I love about Sweeney are that he seems to value the opinions of those around/below him, and he gives zero fucks at all about public perception. He's openly said about certain draft picks that he trusted his scouting department regardless of popular opinion. Building a top 5 farm system without tanking, without getting a top 10 pick is a huge deal. Other than Tampa, all the teams with anywhere near their caliber farm system have been horrible for multiple recent seasons.

I really think lexrageorge's 2nd point is the crux here. Are Jacobs and Neely realistic and serious about what it means to have a couple of "bridge years" to rebuild? And are their public statements just trying to assuage the majority of the fan base who thinks every team should be like the Patriots? Or are they really that impatient and unwilling to take a long term view here? I sure hope it's the former. What they do transaction wise the rest of the season should help clarify that a bit.

As for Claude, I could write pages on that, but suffice to say, I'm #teamClaude. Contrary to some, I think he has been great overall developing young players, despite a few prominent "failures". We're seeing it pay off this year with Pastrnak, for example. Sure he could have been a 25/25 player given top 6 minutes the past two years, but that wasn't what was best for him and the team long term. I feel like a Steve Simmons saying it, but he wouldn't be doing what he's doing this year if he hadn't had to earn that spot. And I think the way Claude went about it really showed why he's good at developing talent. I remember games where Pastrnak was benched late during close, important games, but he never got punished for making crazy mistakes trying to be creative as long as he had his "compete level" up. I remember plenty of times seeing him do something pretty dumb and thinking, Claude I'll fight you if you bench him, and then he was on the ice for the next shift.

Counterpoint to my last paragraph is Colin Miller. I have no explanation for that situation. I have a similarly long-winded post in my head for the halfway thread where he's featured prominently
 

cshea

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Looks like Charlie has given Cam and Don the green light to make a coaching change. Or at least left the decision up to them and won't stand in the way of whatever the decide with regard to Julien.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/columnists/steve_buckley/2017/01/buckley_charlie_jacobs_says_firing_claude_julien_is_all_on

Feels like between this and the trade rumors, we're nearing a boiling point. Feels like a trade or coaching change is coming in short order. Either would likely be a mistake.
 

MiracleOfO2704

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Feels like between this and the trade rumors, we're nearing a boiling point. Feels like a trade or coaching change is coming in short order. Either would likely be a mistake.
We're drifting from my original idea with the thread, but I'd like to think someone in the organization is aware that the team is not particularly close to contending for the Cup this year and that any move thinking they are is a fool's errand, right? Problem is, Charlie Jacobs is quickly becoming the kind of team owner that doesn't understand team building at all.
 

TheRealness

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Looks like Charlie has given Cam and Don the green light to make a coaching change. Or at least left the decision up to them and won't stand in the way of whatever the decide with regard to Julien.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/columnists/steve_buckley/2017/01/buckley_charlie_jacobs_says_firing_claude_julien_is_all_on

Feels like between this and the trade rumors, we're nearing a boiling point. Feels like a trade or coaching change is coming in short order. Either would likely be a mistake.
A trade would be much more damaging. I just don't think they are listening to Claude anymore, and the inconsistency and constant flux in effort level to me is a coaching issue. Claude's a great coach and will land on his feet, but at this point it appears like the only move they can make without damaging the team long term.
 

lexrageorge

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The headline for that Herald article is a bit misleading. All Jacobs is saying is that he's happy with whatever decision Neely and Sweeney make; he's not going to make it for them. That's usually a good thing to hear from an owner.

I guess there could be whispers. Or it could all just be raw speculation in light of the fact that one of the coaches from Monday's fiasco did, in fact, just get fired.
 

NYCSox

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Over the last 1.5 seasons, the Bruins are 28-29-6 at home as compared to 38-21-8 on the road. And it's been pretty consistent - they have been just under 1 ppg at home each season.

How much of this is on Claude as opposed to players being less intense or focused at home or, conversely, feeling extra pressure at home is hard to tell. But I guess it's not out of the question that the line matchups that Claude has been using have not been working and that problem continues to linger.

Edit: Some additional data.

2015-16 - Home (2.66 GF and 3.12 GA) and Road (3.10 GF and 2.44 GA)

2016-17 - Home (2.48 GF and 2.71 GA) and Road (2.42 GF and 2.27 GA)

So the problem appears to be more related to the defense at home versus on the road. Very strange.
 
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mcpickl

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Slight sidetrack, but since others opened the door I'll put it out there. If the personnel moves are more to blame and in particular McQuaid and Miller, what personnel moves would have them higher in the standings. I assume many would jettison M&M. What would that salary have bought? Would it really have made a difference?
I think a lot of us at the time advocated signing/matching an offer on Dougie Hamilton, and letting McQuaid walk and not spend the money on Beleskey.

I think having Hamilton continue on next to Chara in your top 4 rather than the flotsam that was there the past two seasons, we'd be talking about how Claude has made the playoffs every year in Boston.
 

TSC

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I think a lot of us at the time advocated signing/matching an offer on Dougie Hamilton, and letting McQuaid walk and not spend the money on Beleskey.

I think having Hamilton continue on next to Chara in your top 4 rather than the flotsam that was there the past two seasons, we'd be talking about how Claude has made the playoffs every year in Boston.
While possibly (though I doubt Hamilton makes that significant of a difference) true, trading Hamilton may end up being an absolute steal for the Bruins.

Senyshyn, Jeremy Lauzon (who may end up being better than Hamilton), and Jakob Forsbacka-Karlsson are all well worth not making the playoffs and getting eliminated in the first round the last two seasons.
 

PedroSpecialK

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I love Claude. But I don't know what else they can do at this point.
They could have done myriad things with roster construction before it got to this point - but at this point I agree, without seriously harming the future of the franchise to the level of Carlo++ for Landeskog, I don't know what more could be done to shake this up.
 

catomatic

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I think a lot of us at the time advocated signing/matching an offer on Dougie Hamilton, and letting McQuaid walk and not spend the money on Beleskey.

I think having Hamilton continue on next to Chara in your top 4 rather than the flotsam that was there the past two seasons, we'd be talking about how Claude has made the playoffs every year in Boston.

Is it now just accepted that Hamilton would have signed in Boston? I believe the strong suggestions that it was Claude or Dougie and that he didn't want to play under the coach who, in his own mind anyway, had treated him so harshly (playoff benching, etc.). Seems to me that's why they hurriedly shipped him far away for nickels on the dollar. Keeping the Kellys and the Campbells of the world over and above the Boychucks (Seguins) and others were nuanced positions at the time let alone in hindsight. I know they were both hurt and unmovable at various critical moments but they (mgmnt) still placed value in strange places over the last 5+ years.

I hate that it appears he's lost them but, whether it's self-belief or not, it seems like the scent is not in their noses the way it should be to compete. Maybe Claude expects them to produce that entirely on their own and their own bag of tricks is empty. 15 years ago this would have been a moment for Mike Keenan. Thank god we don't have to worry about that any more.
 

jercra

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Looking back at the season predictions only one SoSH member picked the B's to finish higher than 3rd. 4 people picked them to finish 4th, 2 to finish 3rd and one, admittedly optimistic, 2nd. The average point prediction was 94.5 and they are currently on pace for 90. If you guys, to your credit, were able to so accurately assess the talent level, why are you now expecting the coach to be fired for achieving what was expected? I get PR and all that, but a new coach isn't going to change the talent. Tonight sucked but it doesn't change the talent level and it shouldn't change the coaching situation in a well run organization.
 

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Because we were predicting how the team would do with this coach who we know so well. A better coach (or just a different coach) could achieve better results with this talent. Look at Pittsburgh changing to Sullivan, or the CBJ with Torts (after that partial year). Is it guaranteed a new coach can have results like that? Of course not, but what Claude has done with this team was very predictable.
 

cshea

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Well the owner came out and said that he expected a deep playoff run. Most of us here can see through that, but the main fan base can't. The bar was set too high, so now they're perceived as performing under expectations and when that happen, the coach is usually where the finger is pointed.

I'm still the leader of the Clode fan club, but the one thing that disturbed me a bit was Bergy's comment after the NYI game that perhaps the team overlooked the Isles. That cannot happen and the coaching staff deserves some blame for that. I'm not sure if that is a signal that they're starting to tune him out or not, but it was concerning to hear that coming from Bergy.
 

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Blowing a 4-1 1st period lead just looks terrible. It just can't happen, not for a team and coach already in quite a bit of trouble.

They play Chicago at home tomorrow night. A really good opponent, on our home ice where the Bruins have played poorly all season. I'm going to guess if they lose that game, Clode's gone. I am not saying this is what should happen, because I don't know that answer. Just saying that's my guess of what will happen.
 

RIFan

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I think there's a good chance that if Sweeney asks Claude if he's lost the room he'll agree that's it's time for a change. I can see a mutual decision for him to go where the "blame" points squarely at the players where it belongs.

Their only other option is to burn all the black jerseys and wear white at home. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
 

TheRealness

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Blowing a 4-1 1st period lead just looks terrible. It just can't happen, not for a team and coach already in quite a bit of trouble.

They play Chicago at home tomorrow night. A really good opponent, on our home ice where the Bruins have played poorly all season. I'm going to guess if they lose that game, Clode's gone. I am not saying this is what should happen, because I don't know that answer. Just saying that's my guess of what will happen.
It's not just about winning and losing, it's about how they play. The reason I am more in the Fire Clode camp is because they are massively inconsistent, and aren't showing up against bad teams. As cshea noted in the game thread, the Bruins lost 4-0 on home ice to the worst team in the Eastern Conference, and blew leads of 3-0 and 4-1 to the 2nd worst team in a must win game. That inconsistency, to me, is on the coach.

If they show up and compete and lose to Chicago, well I doubt he gets fired. If they play the inconsistent nonsense that has plagued them the last dozen games or so, they need to move on.
 

timlinin8th

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Blowing a 4-1 1st period lead just looks terrible. It just can't happen, not for a team and coach already in quite a bit of trouble.

They play Chicago at home tomorrow night. A really good opponent, on our home ice where the Bruins have played poorly all season. I'm going to guess if they lose that game, Clode's gone. I am not saying this is what should happen, because I don't know that answer. Just saying that's my guess of what will happen.
They also play a matinee game at Pittsburgh on Sunday... My guess would be if they are going to make the change Claude doesn't return with the team after that one and they come home to a new coach waiting for them. New coach gets a home game against the Wings as his first.

If anything sealed the deal these last two games would have done it more than losses against tough Chi/Pitt opponents will. This team needed points against weak competition to secure themselves a lead given all the games in hand, and think with all the smoke surrounding this rumor its already been decided. Would be an incredibly shitty end to a coach who has put in a lot of time here, I don't love it but I think thats how it goes.
 

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Practice canceled this morning for whatever that means. Probably nothing since it was canceled a couple days ago too.
 

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Claude is a fantastic coach, but the inconsistency and poor play in key games is a signal that it's time for a change. I am not sure to who though and that's been one of my main objections in the past to a coaching change. It's a conundrum.
 

shaggydog2000

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Claude is a fantastic coach, but the inconsistency and poor play in key games is a signal that it's time for a change. I am not sure to who though and that's been one of my main objections in the past to a coaching change. It's a conundrum.
Mediocre teams are inconsistent. It's kind of their nature. And that is the level of overall talent they have, especially with Bergeron not producing as he normally does.

I think Claude is an excellent defensive coach, and a not particularly good offensive coach, and he's not very good to adapting to the strengths and weaknesses of his players, and he certainly stinks at getting good young offensive players to buy into his system. He has his system, and he's made changes at management request, but he does what he does. And that actually puts him in the top half if not top third of NHL coaches. Being really, really good at one thing does set him apart. And I don't know that they'll find anybody better off the street in the middle of a season. But I don't think he's making much of a difference for this team right now, and I certainly won't miss watching the style he coaches. The wins I did like, the style not so much.
 

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Dec 10, 2007
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I think Claude is an excellent defensive coach, and a not particularly good offensive coach, and he's not very good to adapting to the strengths and weaknesses of his players, and he certainly stinks at getting good young offensive players to buy into his system.
I would love to hear a deeper explanation of this sentence. Because the last 9.5 seasons do not really bear out any of these opinions...at all.

A few of us could take this apart point by point, but I'm more interested in where/how you're forming these opinions before I present the facts.
 

RIFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
3,087
Rhode Island
I don't see it that Claude isn't flexible or adaptable. He's consistently made system changes on both offense and D. The biggest example is that they were almost exclusively a dump and chase team during the 1st half of his tenure (which drove everyone nuts). They now look to enter the zone moving the puck with speed. The power play has seen a number of iterations, most of which were adapted to the players he had. The young player is a fallacy that has been debated over and over. He's a damn good coach in all phases.
 
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