Felger and Mazz - Creating False Naratives one day at a time

[Steve Dillard]

Guys, its not that hard. This is a debate about philosophy. For 8 years the Pats were the "smartest guy in the room," paring away talent in favor of price point value. They then pointed at their results to validate their theory of driving away (holding the line on) their own top end talent (Branch, Samuel, etc).

Its the same thing the Sox are going through now, where everyone hailed the Sox for drawing the line on their own talent (Damon, Manny) based on a belief that their metrics can find equal "hidden value" elsewhere even though not the same talent that most people see as obvious. That's why the analogy to the Sox, Teixeira and Bay (vs. value picks Cameron and Beltre, and earlier selections like JD Drew) is highly relevant.

Basically, having gotten talent through earlier drafting and cheap free agents gets attributed to a skill, rather than luck. That belief that you have this skill then creates the false impression that you need to hold onto proven talent or even overpay for it, because all talent is fungible, and you have the gift to find it (as has been cited on the main board about the not needing big name bats because we can find the Ortizes, Millars and Muellers like we did in 2003).

Then come a series of drafts (Watson, Maloney, Chad Jackson, etc.) and free agent signings (Spings, Adalius Thomas) and one comes to recognize that the earlier talent level had a great deal of luck that isn't replicable. The key is to hold on to the good finds, rather than being overly confident your ability to replicate the earlier success.

 

[bostonbruen]

QUOTE (BannedbyNYYFans.com @ Jan 11 2010, 09:02 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766394
I don't think their problem is being too cheap...I don't think that they lost their soul...I don't think they lost on Sunday because "Randy Moss isn't a football player" and I certainly don't think it's because Tom Brady isn't as committed. Plain and simple, they've had some pretty shitty drafts the past four years or so. And that catches up with you. Look at the Steelers, Colts and other sucessful teams this decade - they all let star players go in FA like the Patriots. The only difference is that they have drafted better and have been able to replace playmakers with young, cheap playmakers. The Pats did this early in the decade and haven't been able to do it since.

So instead of searching for a philosophical or deeper issue, I simply think they didn't have enough talent to win because of such poor draft classes the previous four years or so. That probably doesn't make for the best radio, but I think that is reason number one as to why they are out of the playoffs.

And don't forget they lost a draft pick because of the Spygate scandal. Alot of folks wrote that off as not doing damage to the Patriots because they had the Niners pick, but that Niners pick actually cost them something. They gave up their first round pick the year before to get that pick from the Niners so no matter how you slice it, because of Spygate, the Pats had one less first round pick to use this decade. Couple that with some picks not panning out and you are unable to maintain the excellence for ever. Also keep in mind, while the Pats were going to the SB in 2001, the Colts were headed to a 6-10 record and a good draft position in every round to start the decade. The 2003 Steelers went 6-10 and the 2006 Steelers went 8-8. In both cases they were able to restock midway through their "decade-long" run.
But since the Patriots started their run in 2001, they've only finished out of the playoffs twice (02 & 08) and both times they ended up winning their last game of the season and would have made the playoffs if not for poor performances from Brett Favre (both against and for the Jets).
So if you don't draft well when you pick late, you are screwed. Especially if you lose one of those first round picks.

 

[teddykgb]

If Mazz's article is what we can expect to hear on the radio in a few minutes, then I'm not optimistic I'll listen to the whole show today. Blaming all of this on trading Seymour isn't worth burning brain cycles on. They got a 1st round pick for a mediocre performer they weren't going to be able to resign. You do that deal 100 times out of 100, regardless of the immediate cost. If you want to blame BB the GM for this, be my guest, but that Seymour deal is one of the few things he did right this year. Seymour wasn't stopping those plays yesterday, either.

 

[jsinger121]

Ron Borges joining the show today at 3:20.

 

[Salem's Lot]

QUOTE (jsinger121 @ Jan 11 2010, 02:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766568
Ron Borges joining the show today at 3:20.


I think we know how this will end.

 

[ifmanis5]

The contrast of the shows today are predictable so far...


F&M- What you saw yesterday was what we've been saying for years.

TBS- What you saw yesterday came out of nowhere and was a big surprise.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

QUOTE (Salem's Lot @ Jan 11 2010, 02:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766571
I think we know how this will end.

Hopefully with a meteor hitting the station at 3:25.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Blair is to Bush as Mazz is to Felger.

 

[bosox188]

Did I just hear Felger indirectly say Schilling used steroids?

He was giving McGwire credit for confessing when he didn't technically get caught, Mazz brought up the hearings, and Felger then said "He didn't lie like Schilling."

 

[Salem's Lot]

QUOTE (bosox188 @ Jan 11 2010, 03:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766699
Did I just hear Felger indirectly say Schilling used steroids?


I've been listening and I missed that. What did he say?

 

[SoxScout]

QUOTE (bosox188 @ Jan 11 2010, 03:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766699
Did I just hear Felger indirectly say Schilling used steroids?

No. In front of congress Schilling said, "In 19 years in the big leagues, I have never seen a syringe."

That's what he was calling him out on.

 

[Vinho Tinto]

QUOTE (bosox188 @ Jan 11 2010, 03:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766699
Did I just hear Felger indirectly say Schilling used steroids?

He was giving McGwire credit for confessing when he didn't technically get caught, Mazz brought up the hearings, and Felger then said "He didn't lie like Schilling."


He may be referring to Schilling claiming he didn't see anyone use steroids.

 

[NoXInNixon]

QUOTE (Vinho Tinto @ Jan 11 2010, 03:33 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766721
He may be referring to Schilling claiming he didn't see anyone use steroids.

Can anyone prove that he did?

 

[Ed Hillel]

QUOTE (SoxScout @ Jan 11 2010, 03:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766720
No. In front of congress Schilling said, "In 19 years in the big leagues, I have never seen a syringe."

That's what he was calling him out on.


So how does McGwire's admission change that? Why would Schilling lie? If he was going to protect someone, he strikes me as a guy who would admit having seen it, but not divulge the identity(ies).

 

[Commander Shears]

Mazz said something about how McGwire appearing before Congress qualified as "getting caught" and Felger disagreed. I assume that Mazz meant the questions he was specifically asked, but he didn't specify. To paraphrase, Felger then said something like "does that mean that Schilling 'got caught'"? He wasn't saying that Schilling used 'roids, just pointing out that appearing at that hearing didn't mean he had been busted. They were having a conversation about whether or not McGwire qualifies as having been caught, and they articulated a bit sloppily.

 

[shawnrbu]

"4th and 2 was the axis on which this season turned."
~The Mazz Dog

 

[Mystic Merlin]

QUOTE (shawnrbu @ Jan 11 2010, 05:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766938
"4th and 2 was the axis on which this season turned."
~The Mazz Dog


Bullshit.

The team's myriad weaknesses had arose far before that (Denver, NY, Buffalo).

He's saying this because it fits into his entire angle.

 

[Sparky Lyle]

QUOTE (shawnrbu @ Jan 11 2010, 05:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766938
"4th and 2 was the axis on which this season turned."
~The Mazz Dog



Why do you listen if what they say bothers you so much? In a larger context, I don't disagree with what Mazz said. Go listen to the Big Show then. I'm sure they're sucking BB's dick right about now.

 

[Rocco Graziosa]

QUOTE (Sparky Lyle @ Jan 11 2010, 05:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766946
Why do you listen if what they say bothers you so much? In a larger context, I don't disagree with what Mazz said. Go listen to the Big Show then. I'm sure they're sucking BB's dick right about now.


Exactly.

I thought todays show was excellent. They were energized but not venomous..........they even mixed in some awesome self deprecating humor with a sound mix of Felger predicting "the Ravens will NOT run on the Pats" with the play by play of the Ravens running all over the Pats. Felger only talked about Moss when someone else brought it up (his promise for the show) and I thought they had a pretty reasonable take on the state of the organization..........its about the talent they're bringing in and what talent they're deciding to and NOT to pay.

In general it sounded like a toned down Yankee elimination day on the Fan right after they got swept by the Tigers.

 

[Ahriman]

I've enjoyed the show today, which is something I haven't been able to say in the last week or two. Definitely seems like the message got through to them about hammering the same narrative home over and over and over again. Hopefully this sort of tone is what we get going forward.

 

[Phenom]

I just heard that bit with Felger...pretty funny stuff.

I echo the statements made about this being a good show today. Controversial tone, not reiterating the same points, good discussion being produced.

I'm glad that it looks like I'm not going to have to think about going back. Hopefully last week was just an aberration.

 

[dirtynine]

Enjoyed Felger ranting about the Pats excuse for not already locking up Wilfork - "we don't want to be boxed in under a new CBA." He ripped off about 5 teams that had recently signed high-profile free agents. "You think Jerry Jones is voting for a CBA that boxes him in to a contract he just signed? Why aren't the Cowboys scared?"

 

[Dan Murfman]

QUOTE (Sparky Lyle @ Jan 11 2010, 05:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766946
Why do you listen if what they say bothers you so much? In a larger context, I don't disagree with what Mazz said. Go listen to the Big Show then. I'm sure they're sucking BB's dick right about now.



Really if you don't want to suck Felger's and Mazz's balls go listen to the Big Show unless you don't like the Big Show.

 

[dcmissle]

QUOTE (shawnrbu @ Jan 11 2010, 05:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2766938
"4th and 2 was the axis on which this season turned."
~The Mazz Dog


He did not say this, I hope, and if he did, I really hope it was in jest.

The remark is indefensible and, worse, reflective of great laziness or cynicism if meant. You want to kill the Patriots? Fine. There is enough low hanging fruit in the Patriots Forum alone to choke an elephant.

 

[mcpickl]

QUOTE (dirtynine @ Jan 11 2010, 08:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2767192
Enjoyed Felger ranting about the Pats excuse for not already locking up Wilfork - "we don't want to be boxed in under a new CBA." He ripped off about 5 teams that had recently signed high-profile free agents. "You think Jerry Jones is voting for a CBA that boxes him in to a contract he just signed? Why aren't the Cowboys scared?"


Have the Patriots said this is why Wilfork isn't signed?

 

[Mystic Merlin]

Citing the Redskins and Cowboys doesn't help his case. That much should be obvious.

And the Patriots have never divulged the details of contract negotiations or rationales for personnel moves. I think it's totally logical that they're worried about the uncertainty of labor negotiations; I am honestly surprised this isn't self-evident.

 

[Harry Hooper]

The best point Felger made today was that the expansion of the cap ceiling over the course of the decade meant teams could increasingly keep their playmakers. Diamonds in the rough like Vrabel got harder to find in the FA pool, which put more importance on drafting well. The FA pool tending to be JAGs and super expensive guys (e.g., Haynesworth) in recent years.

 

[Sparky Lyle]

QUOTE (Dan Murfman @ Jan 11 2010, 08:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2767213
Really if you don't want to suck Felger's and Mazz's balls go listen to the Big Show unless you don't like the Big Show.




What?


What? Huh?

 

[Dan Murfman]

QUOTE (Sparky Lyle @ Jan 12 2010, 02:50 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2767565
What?


What? Huh?



People have come in here with criticisms of the show and your answer to them is to go listen to the Big Show as they suck BB balls. So it seems that you only want Felger and Mazz fanboys to post in here. And some of the people that have complained have said they don't like the Big Show so your answer really wouldn't help them.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Terrible execution Murfman. Terrible.

 

[Sparky Lyle]

QUOTE (Dan Murfman @ Jan 12 2010, 06:38 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2767587
And some of the people that have complained have said they don't like the Big Show so your answer really wouldn't help them.




OK. I'll grant you the fanboy stuff. I am a big fan of their show.

As for the quoted part above, I don't give a fuck. I'm not looking to help them. You don't see me posting very often in the Big Show thread because I don't listen to the fucking show anymore. When Felger and Mazz become so unbearable and the Big Show becomes so much superior I'll go back to it and become a Big Show fanboy.

 

[Dalton Jones]

I think both shows suck now, except when someone intelligent like Curran is on the Big Show, or Gaspar on Felger & Mazz. Felger simply grates on you the more you listen. Even when he's right, and I think he is with regard to the failed Pats' philosophy of "value" over first round talent, for instance, he reiterates the point over and over and over until I'm ready to kill myself. He's a sophomoric jerk and when he goes into one of his rants I just flip to The Big Show. But doing that just throws me in the hands of Pete Shepherd or Fred Smerlas or DeOssie or Glen: a fate worse than death. So I shift from one to the other desperately searching for signs of intelligent life but rarely find it. I find myself listening to more music.

 

[Sparky Lyle]

Nice to here from you Dalton.

 

[Metrician]

QUOTE
Felger simply grates on you the more you listen

He apparently got to his partner this evening. When I flipped on the car radio Maz was really going at him. In an emotional voice --what else with Tony-- Maz was knocking Felger's ratings on Comcast and 890, as well as his broadcast persona in general.

 

[Phenom]

QUOTE (Metrician @ Jan 12 2010, 09:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2768639
He apparently got to his partner this evening. When I flipped on the car radio Maz was really going at him. In an emotional voice --what else with Tony-- Maz was knocking Felger's ratings on Comcast and 890, as well as his broadcast persona in general.


Yes, it was a genuine argument.

Felger was berating Tony about the Hall of Fame voting and Mazz blurted out (or hissed out): "You really have a pulse on the people...your ratings on "Sports Sunday: are so good! And I got news for you, the signal wasn't the only reason you failed on 890!" :rolling:

Overall, I thought it was a good show today. I love it when Felger pushes Mazz's buttons.

 

[HomeBrew1901]

Mazz was right, Felger was annoying the shit out of me to the point where I turned on EEI for awhile around 5:20 or so. It's not about whether or not I agree with Felger, because I often do, but when he wants to pound something into the ground it gets to the point where he will not listen to anything and his arguments become dumber and dumber and dumber.

One thing I do like about Felger is that I flipped it back on for the Jonathan Kraft interview and he isn't afraid to ask the really tough questions that will make someone uncomfortable, that was a pretty solid interview.

 

[4 6 3 DP]

Was he suspended at some point?

 

[Rocco Graziosa]

QUOTE (Dalton Jones @ Jan 12 2010, 03:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2768201
I think both shows suck now, except when someone intelligent like Curran is on the Big Show, or Gaspar on Felger & Mazz. Felger simply grates on you the more you listen. Even when he's right, and I think he is with regard to the failed Pats' philosophy of "value" over first round talent, for instance, he reiterates the point over and over and over until I'm ready to kill myself. He's a sophomoric jerk and when he goes into one of his rants I just flip to The Big Show. But doing that just throws me in the hands of Pete Shepherd or Fred Smerlas or DeOssie or Glen: a fate worse than death. So I shift from one to the other desperately searching for signs of intelligent life but rarely find it. I find myself listening to more music.


THIS I agree with. They don't let callers get involved early or often enough. They went THREE segments the last two days before they took the first caller........it was just Felger and Mazz bashing me over the head with their points........which I actually agreed with..........but it was too long and too much. I, myself, even turned to the Big Show for a second.......but then I heard Ordway double talking some caller into agreeing with him that there is no way the Pats are wrong about how they refuse to sign their own talent to big contracts and I quickly changed back.

The show isn't perfect......in fact its far from it.......but they are on the cusp of something really good and unique to this area (plug your ears Mystic Merlin) and its very similar to what Mike and the Mad Dog show built in Gotham. Or at least the closest replica I've ever seen. The last two days were almost identical (at least in show strategy) to the Yankee elimiation party after they got swept by the Tigers. I've thoroughly enjoyed it.

 

[ifmanis5]

The M&MD comparisons fall well short of the mark for me, mostly because Mazz is a weak link. He's a whiny 'I told ya so' guy who is either complaining or answering every question with the phrase "well, let's go back." Earth to Mazz- not all of life's hard questions can be answered by looking back to 1988. As you might say, 'doesn't work that way.' Felger needs a better foil.

 

[BigJimEd]

QUOTE (Phenom @ Jan 12 2010, 09:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2768657
Yes, it was a genuine argument.

Felger was berating Tony about the Hall of Fame voting and Mazz blurted out (or hissed out): "You really have a pulse on the people...your ratings on "Sports Sunday: are so good! And I got news for you, the signal wasn't the only reason you failed on 890!" :rolling:

Overall, I thought it was a good show today. I love it when Felger pushes Mazz's buttons.

I heard some of this. Didn't sound like the first time either. Mazz called Felger a jerk and said Felger loves to play the role of the jerk. Felger countered by asking Tony if he was going to quit again and if Mazz was going to go whine to the program director that he crossed a line again.

Mazz reminds me a little of Dale in that he gets very defensive and childish when questioned.

QUOTE
Mazz was right, Felger was annoying the shit out of me to the point where I turned on EEI for awhile around 5:20 or so. It's not about whether or not I agree with Felger, because I often do, but when he wants to pound something into the ground it gets to the point where he will not listen to anything and his arguments become dumber and dumber and dumber.

One thing I do like about Felger is that I flipped it back on for the Jonathan Kraft interview and he isn't afraid to ask the really tough questions that will make someone uncomfortable, that was a pretty solid interview.
This is precisely why I usually end up turning the station after a few minutes. I didn't hear the Jonathan Kraft interview but I agree that generally Felger does a pretty good interview.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

QUOTE
Was he suspended at some point?


No Felger got a vasectomy last week and I think that some people were speculating that he was suspended.

And I heard Mazz' explosion, at first I thought that he was joking around but he sounded sincerely pissed off. Talk about going for the jugular at the first opportunity.

Felger: "I don't agree with the BBWAA."
Mazz: "You suck, you're a failure. Your ratings at 890 were terrible, your Sunday show sucks and it's not about signal strength."

I think that Massarotti should remember that he's here because of Felger, not the other way around.

 

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

QUOTE (HomeBrew1901 @ Jan 12 2010, 06:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2768674
One thing I do like about Felger is that I flipped it back on for the Jonathan Kraft interview and he isn't afraid to ask the really tough questions that will make someone uncomfortable, that was a pretty solid interview.


They are re-playing the interview right now.

Here is the link to the download page where the inverview can also be found:
http://www.cbssports.com/local/boston/radi...lger-massarotti

 

[Phenom]

Felger is on today...his take on the Jets last segment was excellent.

I was hoping for Favre to lose in order to get a Favre rant out of him, but the Jets will do.

 

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

I haven't been able to listen to the show much at all the past couple of weeks and I've come to a conclusion - Felger is a guy a really like. He is very refreshing and I enjoy the "contrarian" point of view if it's backed up by facts. Felger can be both funny and edgy at times and when he is on (like bashing the BBWAA), it's great radio. BUT, I can't take him and Mazz BOTH being so negative about everything Boston sports. Yes, I understand the Jets are in the AFC Championship and the Pats are home. Yes, I realize the Yankees won a World Series while my team didn't win a playoff game. But I can't take the hometown bashing over and over again. Maybe that makes me a homer and maybe that makes me a pussy, but I can't take the show when things are going badly for the Pats, Sox, B's, and C's. It's TWO guys being TOO negative hour after hour after hour (and then they put Shaugnessy on as a topper). I consider myself open minded and not just a "homer/follower" but I need to hear something different than all the negative shit over and over. I wish 98.5 would pair someone up with Felger who challenged him just a little bit more and who didn't just pile on with "Yeah, you're right Mike! The Pats/Sox blew it!" show after show.

 

[Phenom]

This show is just more fun than "The Big Show."

I like McAdam, but hearing him drone on about politics for 4 hours? Zzzzzzz

Hearing Felger talk about people eating a whole stick of butter in 90 seconds is more my taste.

 

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

QUOTE (Phenom @ Jan 20 2010, 12:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2778831
This show is just more fun than "The Big Show."

I like McAdam, but hearing him drone on about politics for 4 hours? Zzzzzzz

Hearing Felger talk about people eating a whole stick of butter in 90 seconds is more my taste.


I love McAdam's insight, but I absolutely agree - his tone could put a coked up Tom Arnold to sleep. And like I posted above, I do think Felger is extremely entertaining. His off the cuff rants on stuff like Balloon Boy's parents are hysterical and witty. I just wish he was paired with someone who challenged him more when he is playing the negative contrarian because I can't take 4 hours day after day of two guys ripping Moss, Theo, and the Krafts. I always thought the perfect show in the Boston market would be Felger and Holley.

 

[Phenom]

For any hockey fans out there, Felger and Mazz have talked hockey for really the entire past hour.

It is clear that Felger is actually a pretty passionate hockey fan and really cares about how the Bruins do. He really comes off as a fan when talking about the sport, which is great to hear.

 

[Phenom]

Felger and GRESH tomorrow

GREEESSSHHHH ON AFTERNOON DRIVE!!!!

My oh my...

 

[Sparky Lyle]

QUOTE (Phenom @ Jan 21 2010, 06:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2780394
Felger and GRESH tomorrow

GREEESSSHHHH ON AFTERNOON DRIVE!!!!

My oh my...




Well that's going to present a problem for me. Gresh, or however the fuck he spells his name, sucks. Oh boy, do I hate him more than Larry Fucking Johnson? Tough call for me.

 

[Phenom]

QUOTE (Sparky Lyle @ Jan 21 2010, 06:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2780431
Well that's going to present a problem for me. Gresh, or however the fuck he spells his name, sucks. Oh boy, do I hate him more than Larry Fucking Johnson? Tough call for me.


I heard a tidbit of Gresh's show last Saturday. It went like this:

Caller: It seemed like the Patriots' defensive scheme was a little off...

GRESH: SCHEME! DON'T MAKE ME GO THERE! DON'T MAKE ME GO INSIDE FOOTBALL ON YOU! DON'T MAKE ME TALK ABOUT SCHEME! DON'T MAKE ME TALK ABOUT THE Y-GAP AND HOW IT RELATES TO THE C-GAP! SCHEME! YOU DON'T WANT TO MAKE ME DO THAT! I COULD TALK ABOUT THE COVER 2 PACKAGE AND HOW THE LINEBACKERS BLEW THE F-GAP COVERAGE ON THOSE RUNS, BUT DON'T MAKE ME DO IT!

The guy is obese, thinks he's a football expert, and yells a lot.

I agree, he sucks.