Farrell out

donutogre

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Koji had 6 multi-inning appearances over the last two months of 2013.

Kimbrel had only 1 over the last two months of 2017.

Remember Koji wasn't the closer until much later in the year back in 2013.
In 2007 (I know, ancient history), Papelbon went more than an inning twice in the last two months of the season, including zero times in September. He then went multi-inning 6 of his 7 appearances in the postseason. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

tims4wins

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Re: Kimbrel's performance, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

On the one hand, yes, I firmly believe that he was expecting to come into the game before the 9th inning. I also don't believe that he needed to do that a bunch over the last 1-2 months of the season to be ready for that situation.

On the other hand, I have my doubts that he was 100% ready to come into a tie game given how the game was going. I don't know when he started warming up, but I am guessing it wasn't until after the homer. Then Sale went ground out, single, line out, at which point the change was made. It was kind of an odd time to make the move. I bet Kimbrel figured his usage would be either A) come into the 8th with a lead or B) preserve a tie in the 9th and/or extra innings. Preserving a tie in the 8th is kind of a rarity for a closer. So I could see him being a little surprised by that usage.

His performance doesn't have to be anyone's fault.

Again, Sale should have never started the 8th, that is where the problems began. THAT you CAN blame on JF.
 

joe dokes

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Didn't Gardenhire emerge from the same baseball primordial soup that tried to turn that Ortiz guy into a oppo-happy turf-slappy home run avoider?

But at least he's a solid post-season performer:
He is the only manager in MLB history to take a team to the playoffs at least six times and never make it to the World Series, and only one of four with at least four playoff appearances to never appear in it.
 

ricopetro6

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the lack of a trusted 8th inning guy(which most play-off teams have) was the down fall.
3 runs total in the 8th and 9th is not acceptable.
Imagine if Dever's inside the park homer was the game winner, or even tied it....what a waste.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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SOSH would be screaming for Molitor's head after one month, and he's 10x as progressive a manager as Gardenhire. I'm trying hard to think of one thing Gardy did that would be considered analytical or "modern" managing. I've got nothing. Fast guys with no OBP skills batted first. Rookies had to earn their PT. Closers were for the 9th inning. Defensive shifts? What?

John Henry would need to have his brain removed to OK a Gardy hiring.
 

czar

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Re: Kimbrel's performance, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

On the one hand, yes, I firmly believe that he was expecting to come into the game before the 9th inning. I also don't believe that he needed to do that a bunch over the last 1-2 months of the season to be ready for that situation.

On the other hand, I have my doubts that he was 100% ready to come into a tie game given how the game was going. I don't know when he started warming up, but I am guessing it wasn't until after the homer. Then Sale went ground out, single, line out, at which point the change was made. It was kind of an odd time to make the move. I bet Kimbrel figured his usage would be either A) come into the 8th with a lead or B) preserve a tie in the 9th and/or extra innings. Preserving a tie in the 8th is kind of a rarity for a closer. So I could see him being a little surprised by that usage.
He was loosening before the homer. Not sure if he was throwing in earnest but both him and Reed were shown by the telecast as up when Sale was throwing warmups.

Kimbrel's performance was bad because he was bad. It was a bad time to be bad but pitchers are bad sometimes, even good pitchers. Especially pitchers who have historically had some issues commanding their stuff. It's completely unfair to pin even 1% of it on Farrell. If he was surprised by being asked to pitch in an uber-high-leverage situation in the 8th inning because it was tied and not a lead, he probably shouldn't be the closer.

Buck Showalter was roundly mocked last year for leaving Zach Britton in the bullpen when they were tied in extra innings ("that's not when the closer pitches!") in a do-or-die game. I would have LURVED the see Twitter if during the post-game presser he was like "well, Zach isn't prepared to pitch anything other than the bottom of the 9th with a lead so I didn't want to scare him."
 

fineyoungarm

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Williams also won two WS titles in Oakland, and is a hall of famer. So if the question is about who was a good manager, period (as opposed to just in Boston), he's a shoo-in.
He is a shoo-in at #2 for the 2 1/2 years he was in Boston. Although Jose Santiago is still waiting to start game 7 of the 1967 World Series (I know - no way was Gibson going to lose that one) and Williams' treatment of George Scott was shameful.
 

SpaceMan37

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If he was overthrowing he would have in fact gotten swings and misses. He would have been wild, but he would have been throwing harder.

This is more of a philosophical question than anything else so we're never going to agree on this. My take is that if you want to use a guy for multiple innings in the postseason you should get him ready to do so by using him that way leading up to the postseason.
He hit 100 and 101 in that game several times and never did it during the season that I remember. He typically was 97-98.
 

SpaceMan37

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Re: Kimbrel's performance, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

On the one hand, yes, I firmly believe that he was expecting to come into the game before the 9th inning. I also don't believe that he needed to do that a bunch over the last 1-2 months of the season to be ready for that situation.

On the other hand, I have my doubts that he was 100% ready to come into a tie game given how the game was going. I don't know when he started warming up, but I am guessing it wasn't until after the homer. Then Sale went ground out, single, line out, at which point the change was made. It was kind of an odd time to make the move. I bet Kimbrel figured his usage would be either A) come into the 8th with a lead or B) preserve a tie in the 9th and/or extra innings. Preserving a tie in the 8th is kind of a rarity for a closer. So I could see him being a little surprised by that usage.

His performance doesn't have to be anyone's fault.

Again, Sale should have never started the 8th, that is where the problems began. THAT you CAN blame on JF.
What you can blame JF for most is how he managed game 1 like it was a regular season game, leaving Sale in to give up 5 runs when he clearly had nothing, and then two runners to start the 6th. Then he brought in Joe Kelly and 100% of Red Sox fans knew those two runners would score. Then the game ended without using a single good relief pitcher when he could have shown some urgency in keeping the game close and winnable.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Saying the Red Sox are down to a top 3 hours after they fired Farrell is rich. I'm sure DD has a list of candidates but that tweet from the Pioneer Press reporter is hot garbage.
Let’s humor for a second. If he’s in a top 3 then we have to assume that Cora Ausmus and Gardy are those top 3. I have to be honest I’m not really enjoying the linking of Ron to this job. He wasn’t a bad manager not really a great one either. I’ll have nightmares about whenever they play the Yankees or Craig Kimbrel pitching multiple innings in May.

The talking heads on 98.5 floating Ozzie Guillen haha. That would be awful on many levels not because he’s a bad manager but because he’s an absolute nut job.
 

SpaceMan37

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I hope Dave Martinez is interviewed. I'm still highest on Kapler, but have doubts he'll want to move because he has kids in high school. Cora is also in my top 3.
 

The Gray Eagle

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It's not unreasonable to suspect that Gardenhire himself might have told that reporter that he has an interview with the Red Sox and believes that he is in the final 3.
 

Sprowl

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He hit 100 and 101 in that game several times and never did it during the season that I remember. He typically was 97-98.
Kimbrel hit 100 with the fastball several times during the season, but averaged lower.



He hit 100 on his first few pitches on October 9, most of which were balls well out of the strike zone.

 

Stitch01

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Gardenhire buzz is weird, sort of out of left field and feels like either he's floating it or someone in the Sox FO is leaking it. I wont be surprised if that's the direction DD goes though. Sort of fits DD's description of the job, knows him from his Tiger days, has worked with young teams. I think he's a real candidate. This is make or break decision for DD, I dont think he's gonna go with Alex Cora or someone of that ilk.
 

santadevil

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I'm on the Girardi train as well, assuming he becomes available.
He did a good job with a very young Marlins team in 2006
He's used to managing in a large market
 

modifydbear

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Gardenhire buzz is weird, sort of out of left field and feels like either he's floating it or someone in the Sox FO is leaking it. I wont be surprised if that's the direction DD goes though. Sort of fits DD's description of the job, knows him from his Tiger days, has worked with young teams. I think he's a real candidate. This is make or break decision for DD, I dont think he's gonna go with Alex Cora or someone of that ilk.
Pure speculation obviously, but Gardenhire might be the short-term manager scenario that allows Varitek to get a couple years in as bench coach/pitcher whisperer before being promoted. With Cora or Ausmus I assume the hope would be for longer-term success.
 

Zupcic Fan

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I think that if I had to pinpoint the 10 times that I was most furious with a non Davy Johnson manager, 8 of them would be games where Ron Gardenhire was "managing" against the Yankees. "Be aggressive boys. Hit 3-0 at idiotic moments." I can't stand him. I'd rather have Bobby Valentine back! He's awful.
 

RedOctober3829

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From Sean McAdam:

"Dombrowski was strangely circumspect in Wednesday’s press conference to announce Farrell’s dismissal. He repeatedly avoided specifics and declined to get into details as to his reasoning for recommending the move.

A source familiar with Dombrowski’s thinking, however, suggested that Farrell was being evaluated for the entirety of his tenure since Dombrowski arrived, and not, as some perceived, on the team’s second straight early exit from the post-season.

Farrell’s abilities – or deficiencies – as an in-game manager may not have proved as big a factor as some supposed.

The same source indicated Dombrowski was unhappy with some of the clubhouse dynamics, and, in particular, the incident with the Baltimore Orioles early in the season.

Dombrowski loudly confronted Farrell over his handling of the team’s comportment after Manny Macahdo’s takeout slide – from the sloppiness and ineptitude of the on-field response, and Dustin Pedroia’s on-camera message (“It’s not me; it’s them’’) — didn’t speak well for team unity.

Farrell was further cast in a negative light by the David PriceDennis Eckersley incident where the manager seemed uncomfortably caught in between a petulant player’s overreaction to Eckersley’s color analysis, and the knowledge that Price’s voice carries significant weight in the clubhouse — especially with others on the pitching staff. Farrell understood that publicly calling Price out for his behavior could jeopardize the manager’s own standing in the clubhouse.

One baseball source suggested that while Henry had long been a backer of Farrell’s, that support began to waver this season as the team underperformed for stretches, and Henry, who is intensely driven by analytics, began to join the chorus of those who found fault with Farrell’s tactical moves.

Recently, Henry scoffed when someone suggested that the team’s dismal performance in the first two games in Houston in the ALDS was not something that could be blamed on Farrell. In retrospect, losing Henry’s confidence may have been the most obvious signal that his days were numbered."

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2017/10/11/making-call-fire-farrell-dombrowskis-red-sox-now-ever/
 

mauidano

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I'm on the Girardi train as well, assuming he becomes available.
He did a good job with a very young Marlins team in 2006
He's used to managing in a large market
I'm cool with Girardi as well but I feel like it will Ausmus.
 

NJ_Sox_Fan

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Not really anything to do with Farrell, but I'm curious why some of you who think Stanton will be moved would require such an immense haul.

IF they move him, it's to lose the contract. If the team acquiring him is eating that contract, I doubt it takes much of a prospect haul at all.

Personally I think whoever gets him will get him for a very reasonable deal, considering the talent their receiving.
 

mauidano

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I think that if I had to pinpoint the 10 times that I was most furious with a non Davy Johnson manager, 8 of them would be games where Ron Gardenhire was "managing" against the Yankees. "Be aggressive boys. Hit 3-0 at idiotic moments." I can't stand him. I'd rather have Bobby Valentine back! He's awful.

Be careful what you wish for.
 

Sox and Rocks

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From Sean McAdam: One baseball source suggested that while Henry had long been a backer of Farrell’s, that support began to waver this season as the team underperformed for stretches, and Henry, who is intensely driven by analytics, began to join the chorus of those who found fault with Farrell’s tactical moves.


https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2017/10/11/making-call-fire-farrell-dombrowskis-red-sox-now-ever/
This excerpt from the article is particularly reassuring to me. We know Henry is an analytics guy, but there is some evidence that DD is not and, perhaps, has full (or almost full) autonomy for these kinds of decisions. Henry's involvement here suggests that Ausmus and Gardenhire can't be legit candidates, which I hope to God is the case.

I don't know who I want, but I know I don't want Ausmus or Gardenhire.
 

soxhop411

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This excerpt from the article is particularly reassuring to me. We know Henry is an analytics guy, but there is some evidence that DD is not and, perhaps, has full (or almost full) autonomy for these kinds of decisions. Henry's involvement here suggests that Ausmus and Gardenhire can't be legit candidates, which I hope to God is the case.

I don't know who I want, but I know I don't want Ausmus or Gardenhire.

What about a reincarnated bobby Valentino?
 

Hank Scorpio

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Aren't teams required to interview a diverse selection of candidates for these positions now?

I hope the Gardenhire interview is just to check the "crotchety old white guy" box on the MLB paperwork.
 

cannonball 1729

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Pure speculation obviously, but Gardenhire might be the short-term manager scenario that allows Varitek to get a couple years in as bench coach/pitcher whisperer before being promoted. With Cora or Ausmus I assume the hope would be for longer-term success.
As of now (if I'm reading BR correctly), the Sox have two years before Chris Sale is a free agent, one year before Drew Pomeranz and Craig Kimbrell can walk, and three years before Mookie can become a FA. Now's not the time to futz around with caretaker managers.
 

Al Zarilla

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This excerpt from the article is particularly reassuring to me. We know Henry is an analytics guy, but there is some evidence that DD is not and, perhaps, has full (or almost full) autonomy for these kinds of decisions. Henry's involvement here suggests that Ausmus and Gardenhire can't be legit candidates, which I hope to God is the case.

I don't know who I want, but I know I don't want Ausmus or Gardenhire.
Same here. Some people have said that Cora is a great baseball mind. I have no way of knowing that, but I'd rather gamble that they're right and hire him than DD bring in either of those guys. Not possible to turn back the clock just two years and give the job to Lovullo, right?
 

SpaceMan37

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Same here. Some people have said that Cora is a great baseball mind. I have no way of knowing that, but I'd rather gamble that they're right and hire him than DD bring in either of those guys. Not possible to turn back the clock just two years and give the job to Lovullo, right?
Cora is in Houston so he has probably bought into the analytics koolaid. They're supposedly the team that is most analytics based of them all.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I don't have the time right now to read the whole thread, but I'm happy Farrell is gone, if for no other reason than for his below-average ability to coach in-games.

However, from what I did see in this thread, I noted a few folks congratulating DD on this move. I guess congrats are in order, seeing as it's the right move, but I also believe that DD is skating a bit and not shouldering as much of the blame as he should. This team has flaws, serious flaws, on the diamond, and at the end of the day, no matter what Farrell did, he didn't have the horses to compete with Houston, Cleveland, or probably even New York, in this post-season. Is that really all Farrell's fault?

Somebody had to pull the trigger and fire Farrell, and for that, I guess we can acknowledge that DD made the right move, but if it weren't for some of the misteps that DD himself has made, are we firing Farrell right now, or getting ready for the ALCS? I guess we'll never know, but I certainly hope the Sox do something in this offseason to this roster, and something significant, or an ALDS exit in the playoffs may be the best result we can expect going forward for quite a while. DD can't bring someone else in, have them miss the playoffs next year, and blame the manager. IMO, his head is the next one on the chopping block if things don't change for the better.
 

E5 Yaz

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Terry Francona, speaking before Game 5 of ALDS, said he talked to "dear friend" John Farrell earlier today. "Knowing John the way I do, he'll land on his feet and he'll be in a better position than he was before," Francona said.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Recently, Henry scoffed when someone suggested that the team’s dismal performance in the first two games in Houston in the ALDS was not something that could be blamed on Farrell. In retrospect, losing Henry’s confidence may have been the most obvious signal that his days were numbered."
this reads to me like Henry thinks we were badly outcoached / outprepared, because Farrell's influence on two 8-2 losses in-game is very minimal, even with the Marrero start in game 2.
 

DeadlySplitter

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I don't have the time right now to read the whole thread, but I'm happy Farrell is gone, if for no other reason than for his below-average ability to coach in-games.

However, from what I did see in this thread, I noted a few folks congratulating DD on this move. I guess congrats are in order, seeing as it's the right move, but I also believe that DD is skating a bit and not shouldering as much of the blame as he should.
or they think they were so badly coached that they should be close to the same tier as Cleveland/Houston with a better staff.

Henry "wavering when the team underperformed for stretches" makes me think they were unhappy with 93 wins despite that being "in line" with the numbers.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I think that if I had to pinpoint the 10 times that I was most furious with a non Davy Johnson manager, 8 of them would be games where Ron Gardenhire was "managing" against the Yankees. "Be aggressive boys. Hit 3-0 at idiotic moments." I can't stand him. I'd rather have Bobby Valentine back! He's awful.
Zup and I have disagreed on Red Sox managers on occasion (!) but I am completely with him here. Ron Gardenhire is Bobby Valentine without the creativity...just an awful choice.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Aren't teams required to interview a diverse selection of candidates for these positions now?

I hope the Gardenhire interview is just to check the "crotchety old white guy" box on the MLB paperwork.
Sure. However he is only 59. Only 4 years older than Farrell. I just hope they don’t go with him Ausmus or the strange Vegas betting rumor of the day (-1800) Ventura.
 

ponch73

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Didn't Gardenhire emerge from the same baseball primordial soup that tried to turn that Ortiz guy into a oppo-happy turf-slappy home run avoider?

But at least he's a solid post-season performer:
There is definitely a silver lining to the Red Sox hiring Gardenhire. It will guarantee that Dombrowski will be pushed out the door right after the 2019 season. Hopefully, soon thereafter, we can hire a competent GM with the appropriate respect for using analytics to gain a competitive advantage in modern baseball.
 

twibnotes

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I also believe that DD is skating a bit and not shouldering as much of the blame as he should. This team has flaws, serious flaws, on the diamond, and at the end of the day, no matter what Farrell did, he didn't have the horses to compete with Houston, Cleveland, or probably even New York, in this post-season. Is that really all Farrell's fault?
You are holding the GM to an insanely high bar. Since he arrived, he acquired Price, Sale and Kimbrel. This year he acquired Nunez and Reed at the deadline and went with Devers instead of trading additional assets.

This team is an absolute shit sandwich without those moves.

I think people dramatically overrate the team DD inherited owing to the relatively strong young core.
 

twibnotes

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There is definitely a silver lining to the Red Sox hiring Gardenhire. It will guarantee that Dombrowski will be pushed out the door right after the 2019 season. Hopefully, soon thereafter, we can hire a competent GM with the appropriate respect for using analytics to gain a competitive advantage in modern baseball.

Sure bc no other GMs use analytics, right?

DD's core competency seems to be moving overvalued young assets for great players. His track record in that area is excellent.

Remains to be seen if DD can build the right supporting cast, but he's built a strong core from the mess Cherington left behind, a mess that included ~$60MM annually tied to Panda, Hanley and Porcello.
 

Marceline

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That no one could be worse than Farrell?

There was a lot of that sentiment in the Farrell Watch thread the last few days. Same on Twitter.
Show me one post on this board where someone said no one could be worse than Farrell.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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This will shock rembrat and BMHH and E5, but I’m pretty ambivalent about this move.

I was all for firing Farrell last season when Lovillo was still poised to step in, but now things aren’t so simple.

I do think Cora will be successful as a manager, but it might not be with his first team (a la Tito with the Phillies). And I’m already terrified that DDski is going to trade Chavis — who has a future ahead of him as Dustin Pedroia’s injury replacement, if nothing else — for Miguel Cabrera. So who the heck knows what he’ll do to pick a leader of a team that should be loaded for bear.

Whether this move is good, or not, will depend entirely on whomever is tasked with replacing JF.

Then again, Farrell was due.
 

richgedman'sghost

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So now we trade Devin marrero to the Dbacks for Lovullo, right?
Hey according to Smiling Joe Lovullo only won the superficial wildcard and got swept. I bet the Diamondbacks will be holding a press conference tomorrow to announce his firing.. So he won a wild card..Whoop Dee Damm do...that and $1.25 will get you a small coffee.
 

Norm Siebern

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There is definitely a silver lining to the Red Sox hiring Gardenhire. It will guarantee that Dombrowski will be pushed out the door right after the 2019 season. Hopefully, soon thereafter, we can hire a competent GM with the appropriate respect for using analytics to gain a competitive advantage in modern baseball.
Agree with this sentiment completely. DD better make a good pick here. His job is on the line. And if/when he fails, that is two premier franchises he GMed and in the end failed in leading. He has to know this.