Farrell or . . . . ? You tell us!

Farrell in 2018? Or who?

  • Retain Farrell

  • Fire Farrell and replace him with . . . .


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Lose Remerswaal

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Do you want Farrell back? Do you want Farrell gone?

If you say "gone", who do you want to replace him? It's like a catcher -- they make you play with one -- your team has to have a manager.

Show your work. Your "Fire" votes will identify you and if you don't have a post in the thread saying who you want to replace him with, well, that shows that you didn't complete the assignment.

NAME NAMES!!
 
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Rovin Romine

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Do the usual - interview a bunch of likely candidates and hire the best one, with particular attention to their approach to the coaching staff.

Also, I have a growth on my knee that's getting removed - I can ship that up to Yawkey Way.
 

GK2186

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I say see if David Ross would like to manage. Hes seemed to have the respect of the club house at every stop he's made
 

BaseballJones

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It always seems that managers viewed from a distance look better than managers viewed up close. Many people would look at what Farrell has done and would HAPPILY take it - in five seasons, three division titles and one WS championship. Yes, even with the last-place finishes. They'd see the injuries (esp. to Price) and the loss of Papi and say, man, that's kind of amazing they won the division like that. They wouldn't see all the head-scratching moves on a regular basis.

The same thing as we evaluate other managerial candidates. We can look at W-L records, etc., but frankly, we have NO IDEA if another person would be better for this team than Farrell. Anyone who thinks they know that another guy (pick a name) would produce better results than Farrell is completely kidding himself.

Maybe another guy would. But maybe not. We have no idea.
 

Lefty on the Mound

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A key point in the 4th game of the ALDS yesterday was when Farrell go booted, making DiSarcina the in-game manager. His decision to trot Sale out for a fifth inning of work was poor. It forced him to bring Kimbrel in mid-inning.
I believe that Farrell would have brought Kimbrel in to start the eight inning and that Kimbrel would have performed better as a result.
Believing that Farrell would have made the difference yesterday sways my vote to "keep him."
 

Ale Xander

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1st choice: Alex Cora
2nd choice: Dave Martinez
3rd choice: Brad Mills
4th choice: Varitek
5th choice: Butterfield
 

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Ugh, no Cora or Ausmus as mentioned above. I'd try to pry Dave Martinez from the Cubs.
I wonder about a guy like Martinez. He's been a bench coach for a decade, has interviewed for at least 7 Manager jobs, but was beaten out by guys like Robin Ventura, Bo Porter, and Matt Williams. Key Tampa players supposedly endorsed Martinez to replace Maddon when he left, but the Rays didn't even put him in their final 3, instead going with Kevin Cash.
So I don't think that "prying" him away from the Cubs would be all that difficult. I just genuinely wonder why he hasn't gotten a chance over the past ten years.
 

Stitch01

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A key point in the 4th game of the ALDS yesterday was when Farrell go booted, making DiSarcina the in-game manager. His decision to trot Sale out for a fifth inning of work was poor. It forced him to bring Kimbrel in mid-inning.
I believe that Farrell would have brought Kimbrel in to start the eight inning and that Kimbrel would have performed better as a result.
Believing that Farrell would have made the difference yesterday sways my vote to "keep him."
Farrell made all the pitching decisions yesterday. He didnt really hide it in the postgame, he talked about his decision to let Sale pitch to Bregman.
 

JimD

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I've probably been one of Farrell's biggest supporters around here but I'm finally convinced that it's time for a new voice in the clubhouse. Consecutive division titles are nice but in both years the team struggled at the end and were just not ready for postseason play. Nor is Farrell is type of master tactician that would argue for giving him the benefit of the doubt - if Dombrowski and the organization weren't embarrassed by the manager's obliviousness to the rules of pitching changes that August night in Yankee Stadium, then we have far bigger problems here.

I would like to see the organization give serious consideration to DeMarlo Hale. Hale has more than earned a shot to be a manager in the major leagues, and he has spent time in Boston and in the Red Sox organization. It is a huge point in his favor IMO that he's had significant experience at Terry Francona's side.

It would also be notable that Hale would become the first African-American manager of the Boston Red Sox, but that should not in any way be seen as anything but a notable incidental factor. His resume and experience have earned him consideration.
 

czar

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Out of curiosity, why is Alex Cora popping up so frequently? I've seen a few puff pieces in the NY market trying to steer the Mets into thinking about him, but he interviewed for a handful of positions and didn't get them, right? He appears to have been passed on by the Marlins, Nationals, DBacks, and Padres.

Assuming the reason he didn't get those jobs was purely "lack of seasoning" (i.e., he did great in the interviews but had no managerial exp.), is one season as bench coach enough to assuage those concerns?
 

timlinin8th

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Why not Cora? Genuinely curious.
Two reasons:

He strikes me as the "can't miss" managerial prospect-of-the-moment based on his rep as a "smart player" who hasn't put in enough time in a coaching position to have enough experience. It gives me shades of Ausmus or Robin Ventura, neither of which worked out too well. Same reason I don't want anything to do with Jason Varitek managing this team.

It would be my preference to bring in someone who has zero past ties to the Red Sox org. If we're rebooting, I want a clean slate. That's also why I wouldn't want Varitek, DiSarcina, Mills or DeMarlo Hale (shame too as someone should give Hale a look).
 

DJnVa

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Dave Martinez, with interviews to Gabe Kapler, Hale, Cora, and Varitek.
 

JimD

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It would be my preference to bring in someone who has zero past ties to the Red Sox org. If we're rebooting, I want a clean slate. That's also why I wouldn't want Varitek, DiSarcina, Mills or DeMarlo Hale (shame too as someone should give Hale a look).
Hiring managers with previous ties to the organization seems to be working out pretty well for the Dodgers, Indians and Yankees.
 

Kielty's Last Pitch

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It always seems that managers viewed from a distance look better than managers viewed up close. Many people would look at what Farrell has done and would HAPPILY take it - in five seasons, three division titles and one WS championship. Yes, even with the last-place finishes. They'd see the injuries (esp. to Price) and the loss of Papi and say, man, that's kind of amazing they won the division like that. They wouldn't see all the head-scratching moves on a regular basis.
You brought back memories of Jimy & Grady

It was the exact same situation with them that you've described. They had success with some very talented Red Sox teams, but it didn't take long for the rest of MLB to discover their managing didn't have much to do with it.
 

timlinin8th

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...and as to why I would pick Martinez:

He has been part of successful teams in the past, with the 2008 Rays that made the Series and more receny the Cubs, and

Both teams have been constructed with young talent, and dealing with a young roster is a key skill that a potential manager of this team is going to need to have.


Hiring managers with previous ties to the organization seems to be working out pretty well for the Dodgers, Indians and Yankees.
No doubt, it is just not what I would want in this specific scenario. All of those names I mentioned have WORKED with JF in the past, and if the goal is to divorce the team from Farrell, hiring someone who has had ties to him doesn't seem optimal, as unfair as that may be.
 

MICHAELG63

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A lot of good suggestions, I would very much be in favor of Cora or Martinez. I also think David Ross would bring a lot of leadership to the team
 

Boston Brawler

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I like the idea of Varitek and Ross, but wouldn't they require some time on a coaching staff first? Maybe one of them is hired as bench coach if DiSarcina goes out with Farrell.
 

Seabass

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Two reasons:

He strikes me as the "can't miss" managerial prospect-of-the-moment based on his rep as a "smart player" who hasn't put in enough time in a coaching position to have enough experience. It gives me shades of Ausmus or Robin Ventura, neither of which worked out too well. Same reason I don't want anything to do with Jason Varitek managing this team.

It would be my preference to bring in someone who has zero past ties to the Red Sox org. If we're rebooting, I want a clean slate. That's also why I wouldn't want Varitek, DiSarcina, Mills or DeMarlo Hale (shame too as someone should give Hale a look).
First, Cora has GM and managerial experience -- it's with Crillos de Caguas in Puerto Rico, where he's won multiple titles since he got there in 2012. He also GM'd the Puerto Rican WBC team this year. This isn't a Brad Ausmus situation, he's been running a baseball team for years in a highly competitive league.

Second, seemingly everyone who's worked with him thinks he'd be a great manager. Keith Law raves about his time with him at ESPN, and I've never heard a teammate of his say something negative about him. There aren't many young, bilingual manager candidates kicking around with a track record of success. I think he'd be a great fit on the Sox, or pretty much any other team out there.
 

drbretto

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I have no idea about any particular candidate's skills, so forgive me. But, to me, the idea of giving someone new a chance (like a Cora if he's really as smart as some think) is very attractive. I want someone with something to prove.

Cora is also the bench coach for the team that just handed us our asses. A team full of young players playing great baseball through and through, I might add. He may or may not be the x-factor here, but at a minimum, he's got a full season of watching Houston develop into a major powerhouse. He's seen what works.

If Cora is a real potential candidate, then now's the time to take that chance. The team that gives him the chance is the team that gets to reap the rewards.
 

czar

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First, Cora has GM and managerial experience -- it's with Crillos de Caguas in Puerto Rico, where he's won multiple titles since he got there in 2012. He also GM'd the Puerto Rican WBC team this year. This isn't a Brad Ausmus situation, he's been running a baseball team for years in a highly competitive league.
B-R does not think he has won as manager, although he is still listed (on their site) as "gerente general" which I assume is GM.

But I'd still be curious as to why he interviewed last offseason for many managerial vacancies and was passed up for all of them. It could just be "we'd like to see you coach at the big league level for a few years," but it gives me pause.

I am completely agnostic on Cora (and again, soft skills like being bilingual and a clubhouse leader are things that could very well be appealing to FOs), but I'd be lying if there wasn't a little fear in the back of my head that he's being parroted after hearing columnists talk about him like Ventura and Ausmus, etc.

But this circles us back to the problem with evaluating Farrell. It's incredibly hard for us, as fans, to ascribe value to these guys. The most compelling arguments for ditching Farrell are anecdotal feelings based on bullpen usage and that "the team underperformed this year." There really are no stat arguments that anyone has brought forth (team underperforming pythag, players regressing year-over-year during Farrell's tenure, etc.)

The most compelling arguments for signing a guy like Alex Cora or Jason Varitek or David Ross seem to be these squishy "he's young and the media tells me he's smart and well-liked in the clubhouse so he'd be a good fit" arguments.

Which further circles me back around to picking a manager on these "soft" skills, which we're not going to be able to evaluate like a FO would. Maybe they'll decide JF needs to go because he's lost the clubhouse or whatever, but I think we're chasing our tail if we're like "bad bullpens! sign Cora!"
 

johnnywayback

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I'd like a manager who is on the front end of innovation, instead of being dragged kicking and screaming into adopting ideas like a leverage-first approach to the bullpen. I think the team needs a new strategy to keep players fresh and healthy throughout the season, one that involves more rest and therefore a more flexible use of the roster.

As @czar correctly points out, it's impossible to know what potential managers will actually be like, but since we're all just fans speculating on a message board, my speculation is that it points to a younger candidate whose on-field days are more recent, and whose experience in coaching/managing has occurred in a progressive-thinking organization. Alex Cora seems to fit both qualifications, so he's my guy. Dave Martinez also makes some sense along those lines.
 

grimshaw

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It's extremely hard to evaluate who a good, unknown replacement would be, even as a knowledgeable fan, so throwing out names we hear who have interviewed elsewhere is basically what this turns into. We know almost nothing about their ability to command respect in a clubhouse, how open they are with sabermetrics, how good they are in communication and especially handling the media in an out for blood market.

I have no wish list, but it seems like an internal guy would have a leg up like Discarnia or Varitek.
I like Robin Ventura a lot too but that's just from hearing him in interviews - no clue on his in game effectiveness.
 

drbretto

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But this circles us back to the problem with evaluating Farrell. It's incredibly hard for us, as fans, to ascribe value to these guys. The most compelling arguments for ditching Farrell are anecdotal feelings based on bullpen usage and that "the team underperformed this year." There really are no stat arguments that anyone has brought forth (team underperforming pythag, players regressing year-over-year during Farrell's tenure, etc.)
This is true, but this is what it means to be a manager. And not just in baseball, but anywhere. The problem doesn't seem to be quantifiable, but the responsibility is still on the managers shoulders, whether it's his fault or not.

In this case, in a position where you're hired to be fired, I think the burden of proof is on those who don't want a change. Change is the default option here. As "foofy" as the arguments against him might seem, the arguments to keep him are worse, IMO.
 

nvalvo

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Out of curiosity, why is Alex Cora popping up so frequently? I've seen a few puff pieces in the NY market trying to steer the Mets into thinking about him, but he interviewed for a handful of positions and didn't get them, right? He appears to have been passed on by the Marlins, Nationals, DBacks, and Padres.

Assuming the reason he didn't get those jobs was purely "lack of seasoning" (i.e., he did great in the interviews but had no managerial exp.), is one season as bench coach enough to assuage those concerns?
Cora has managed (and I think general managed!) in the PRWL, if anyone cares about that.

This is true, but this is what it means to be a manager. And not just in baseball, but anywhere. The problem doesn't seem to be quantifiable, but the responsibility is still on the managers shoulders, whether it's his fault or not.

In this case, in a position where you're hired to be fired, I think the burden of proof is on those who don't want a change. Change is the default option here. As "foofy" as the arguments against him might seem, the arguments to keep him are worse, IMO.
FWIW, I would retain Farrell for another year or two, and reassess. I value continuity, and want to see the organization reap the rewards of his learning process. (I also wouldn't have fired Francona.) I know, I know: these guys are hired to be fired, but I think the rate of churn is often counterproductive.

Let me put it this way: Philadelphia gave Francona his first shot at managing, but then fired him just when he was getting good at it, and we reaped the rewards of his ascent up the learning curve. To be sure, sometimes managers lose clubhouses or alienate fanbases and there's little choice. And sometimes people are just bad — we've all seen that recently. But short of that, I'd like to try to build institutional continuity, so that lessons learned stay in house. The caveat, of course, is a Scioscia situation, where a total madman becomes entrenched for no good reason and runs what should be an excellent franchise into the ground by developing weird grudges against players and questionable in-game tactics. I don't think we are at risk of that here.

I will say that I think Farrell was probably outmanaged in this most recent series, but it was always going to be an uphill climb. (I'd have gone to Reed with three RHH due up in the 8th, for example: 4 IP from Sale was plenty.) But over the regular season, our bullpen outperformed (in WPA) their component line. They stranded a ton of baserunners out there, and that tells me that Farrell was some combination of good and lucky. His teams have been criticized for over-aggressive base-running, and this one was, to type, very aggressive: but they netted out 5 runs ahead on the base paths, which is at least okay.

My biggest knock on Farrell is that he took over in 2013, and there have been five regular seasons since. We've had a starting pitcher lead the league in IP in two of those seasons; there are 30 teams. Predictably, those pitchers have run out of gas in the playoffs. Obviously there's a balance to strike, because we need those guys to help the pen. Hopefully the 2018 pitching staff is deep enough that that imperative is lessened, and no one guy needs to put the whole thing on his shoulders (and elbows).

Czar is up here demeaning "soft" skills, at least if I'm reading him right. I disagree. That's a huge part of the job. He has to keep everyone moving in the right direction in a Boston context where there are a lot of media people trying to garner clicks by stirring up controversy.

I would second Cora and Martinez. I think a manager with strong communication skills in English and Spanish — regardless of national origin — would be a desideratum. We don't need someone who can do all the math; we do, however, need someone who can understand and apply the math thoughtfully. Other candidates I might include on a long list would be Bob Geren, who has the classic backup catcher background and has worked in SABR-friendly organizations, and Tim Bogar, who was of course part of the organization until the 2012 diaspora. Both seem competent. A players' manager is indispensable in Boston, where the players are (rightly) concerned that the press will basically start cyberbullying them if anything goes wrong.
 

BaseballJones

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This is true, but this is what it means to be a manager. And not just in baseball, but anywhere. The problem doesn't seem to be quantifiable, but the responsibility is still on the managers shoulders, whether it's his fault or not.

In this case, in a position where you're hired to be fired, I think the burden of proof is on those who don't want a change. Change is the default option here. As "foofy" as the arguments against him might seem, the arguments to keep him are worse, IMO.
That assumes that the team didn't experience success. If the team experienced success, then the burden of proof is on those who DO want a change.

So how would you have defined success this year, and, given everything that happened outside the manager's control (injuries, Ortiz' retirement, etc), why someone other than Farrell would have achieved it better than he did.
 

drbretto

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That assumes that the team didn't experience success. If the team experienced success, then the burden of proof is on those who DO want a change.

So how would you have defined success this year, and, given everything that happened outside the manager's control (injuries, Ortiz' retirement, etc), why someone other than Farrell would have achieved it better than he did.
True. But I would not define this season as a success. As a fan, I'm more than happy with winning the division, but that's not the measure. To me, the measure is how well the team performs compared to expectations. Everyone underperformed. And while it's totally possible that someone can flip a coin 10 times and get tails every time, somewhere in there, I'm going to ask to see both sides of the coin.

There's also the mental mistakes that we were able to witness. To me, the most damning moment was his reaction to the criticism about the baserunning mistakes. I thought his answer was more about deflecting blame than it was about finding a way to get better. Since then, the more I've looked at his performance in a critical light, the more I've found myself asking what he's actually done right.

I do have to admit that I am coming to this conclusion without context as to who would replace him or what is and isn't acceptable for a manager to do, but the deflecting of blame part really bugged me. That's the attitude I want to see changed.
 

BaseballJones

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True. But I would not define this season as a success. As a fan, I'm more than happy with winning the division, but that's not the measure. To me, the measure is how well the team performs compared to expectations. Everyone underperformed. And while it's totally possible that someone can flip a coin 10 times and get tails every time, somewhere in there, I'm going to ask to see both sides of the coin.

There's also the mental mistakes that we were able to witness. To me, the most damning moment was his reaction to the criticism about the baserunning mistakes. I thought his answer was more about deflecting blame than it was about finding a way to get better. Since then, the more I've looked at his performance in a critical light, the more I've found myself asking what he's actually done right.

I do have to admit that I am coming to this conclusion without context as to who would replace him or what is and isn't acceptable for a manager to do, but the deflecting of blame part really bugged me. That's the attitude I want to see changed.
Right I mean, I wanted them to win the World Series and they didn't get past the ALDS. But if we give blame to Farrell for the guys' down years this year, we have to give him credit for the guys' UP years last year, right?

Like consider Porcello. Last year he was phenomenal. JF gets credit for that? This year he was awful. JF gets blame for that?

As for base running, he's made it clear that their philosophy is to try to take as many bases as possible. They know they don't have much power, so they're going to push the envelope on the base paths. Yes, they'll run into a lot of outs. They were 4th in all MLB in bases taken. It's one way to generate runs without power. Yes, they ran into a lot of outs. The most in MLB, in fact. But Farrell made it clear during the season that that's ok with him and management.

Maybe you don't like that philosophy. Fair enough. But it's not just Farrell. It's how the Red Sox approached the season, given the lack of power.

As for "success"... I think we all hope to make the playoffs as often as possible and every once in a while make a run at the WS, winning it on occasion.
 

Kielty's Last Pitch

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I think the team needs a new strategy to keep players fresh and healthy throughout the season, one that involves more rest and therefore a more flexible use of the roster.
I'd say ditch the 8-man bullpen and bring it back down to 6. Stop the matchup obsession and let the relievers face more than 2 or 3 batters.

A 3-man bench simply isn't enough, bring it back up to 5 and you'll be able to rest the starters a lot more.
 

curly2

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I don't know why Cora has been passed over so many times. Maybe he interviewed poorly.

I listen to the Baseball Tonight podcast on my commute and he's been on it a few times. To me, he's always come across as very bright and with a good understanding of the game. Maybe this year as a bench coach is the last step he needs to take to become a manager.

As to timlinin8th's point about not wanting someone with Red Sox ties, I can see that sentiment, but it's not like Cora is a Red Sox icon. He played for them for three of his 14 seasons, and they were one of his six teams. If it didn't work, they could easily let him go without an uproar.
 

Dr Manhattan

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I'm still unclear on what the effect of a manager is. Like, what value Manager X adds compared to Manager Y, and how thats broken down like, how many % is due to just in game decisions - though, again, how much is based on "this game" or "considering the following run through the staff", or "over this current month in the season" or even "over the whole season". How much is managing fragile egos, knowing when to kick ass, or put an arm round the shoulder, when to sit or swap people for their own good, or for the short term or longer term good. I just don't know you make a reasonable way to evaluate it. They played great at some points in the season and even if they struggled in the very last week, prior to that they went on an amazing tear and looked like they were enjoying it. They didn't start out well vs Houston but made it a series, almost pushing it to Game 5 despite underperforming against a currently elite team. I guess this is a lame way to say I don't have any idea really what the Red Sox would do with this or that guy compared to Farrell, and how to detach that from the work of the hitting and pitching coaches, I guess I'll pass on answering
 

drbretto

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Right I mean, I wanted them to win the World Series and they didn't get past the ALDS. But if we give blame to Farrell for the guys' down years this year, we have to give him credit for the guys' UP years last year, right?

Like consider Porcello. Last year he was phenomenal. JF gets credit for that? This year he was awful. JF gets blame for that?

As for base running, he's made it clear that their philosophy is to try to take as many bases as possible. They know they don't have much power, so they're going to push the envelope on the base paths. Yes, they'll run into a lot of outs. They were 4th in all MLB in bases taken. It's one way to generate runs without power. Yes, they ran into a lot of outs. The most in MLB, in fact. But Farrell made it clear during the season that that's ok with him and management.

Maybe you don't like that philosophy. Fair enough. But it's not just Farrell. It's how the Red Sox approached the season, given the lack of power.

As for "success"... I think we all hope to make the playoffs as often as possible and every once in a while make a run at the WS, winning it on occasion.
No offense, man, but you missed the point across the board.

It's not about blame or credit. It's about what's working and what isn't. An even more apt example would be 2013 Farrell vs 2017 Farrell. It's the same guy. The 2013 team was a great mix all around and Farrell was the best guy for the job. Now, they're not responding in the same way. It's a different core group that has different needs.

I also specifically said it wasn't about just where they ended up. It was about how the team performed compared to expectations. Not any one guy, either. If it's half the team underperforming a little bit then you've got a solid case for random variance. If it's present across the board, then its indicative of a tangible/correctable problem.

If the Sox had gone on to dominate in the playoffs this year, we probably aren't having this conversation right now, but that's only because winning would have masked any perceived ares of improvement. People have been calling for his head all season long, and they've posted really good reasons.

It's not a vendetta against Farrell. I think he's great at what he does. I just think that what he does isn't what this team needs right now. And beyond the "blame" for this season is a concern I have for our young core. The younger they are, the more open they'll be to improvement, IMO. And the longer they're out there making stupid baseball mistakes without someone to beat it out of them (figuratively) the harder those bad habits will set in.
 

Unin10D

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I think Farrell gets judged a little harshly, and I'm tempted to stick with the devil we know. But I do feel like a change could be good, particularly in regards to all the young position players that need to develop.

I'd love to see Cora for the reasons mentioned above. Track record of success, bilingual, and I remember him being mentioned as early as 2004 as a "going to be a great manager when he retires" guy
 

ehaz

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I always felt like the mental mistakes were more than just an aggressive strategy of always sending the runner. Benintendi overthrowing cutoff men/making ill advised throws to 3rd base, runners making outs on bases by being far too up the line on a line drive (basic fundamentals), Hanley forgetting to tag up to advance on a diving play in the outfield, Pedroia generally being an idiot on the bases, etc. This is clearly on the players as well, and maybe it is all just confirmation bias, but John Farrell's teams seem to be rife with these kinds of mistakes.

Sox Doomed By Uncharacteristic Mistakes

John Farrell, Red Sox, Working to Eliminate Inexcusable Mental Mistakes

John Farrell: 'I Messed Up' Trying to Get Craig Kimbrel into game


John Farrell admits 9th inning mistake with Chris Young hitting for Hanley Ramirez

There's a history here. Going back to his time in Toronto with the Omar Vizquel/Greg Zaun comments:

According to Toronto Sun columnist Steve Simmons, Vizquel said the team allowed its young players to repeatedly make the same mistakes without being held accountable.

"It's part of the inexperience," Vizquel said. "If you make mistakes and nobody says anything about it -- they just let it go -- we're going to keep making the same mistakes over and over again. We have to stand up and say something right after that mistake happened. We have to talk about it at meetings. We have to address it in a big way in the clubhouse.

"Sometimes you have to punish players because they're making the same mistakes over and over again."

Vizquel never criticized Farrell by name, and cited the team's need for more veteran leadership. But he did admonish the staff.

"I think the coaching staff has a big responsibility to kind of get in there and tie things up a little, have a bit more communication with their players and try to make this thing happen the right way," he said.

"Look, I think a lot of mistakes were let go because it's young guys. You expect mistakes from young guys. It needs to be talked about. It shouldn't just be let go and say, 'Ah, we have another day.' You have to get on it. You have to say, 'I didn't like that play' and let's try and do something different. You have to talk it over and over again and how do you call it, be on top of that."

Farrell did not let Vizquel's remarks go unchallenged. The club held a closed-door meeting Friday, in which Vizquel apologized for his remarks.

Former Blue Jay Gregg Zaun, now a TV analyst, also took a shot recently at the Jays' ways.

"The atmosphere in this clubhouse and in this organization is consequence-free," Zaun said.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
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Mar 5, 2004
28,000
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What needs to be addressed is the decline hitters face recently when joining the Sox. Maybe Chilli Davis is the wrong guy for these young hitters, or John Farell has something to do with an atmosphere that is not the best for young hitters, but it is a concern. Te Red Sox have to figure out if there are reasons the hitters keep declining, and that the team was in a large part saved by the hitting of two players that were not part of the team most of the year. It is impossible for us, as fans, to se why this happens, but if DD thinks there is a cause in coaching something needs to be done.

That said JF seems to do well with his pitchers, despite injuries. So how do you get the hitting back on track, without hurting the pitching?
 

sobersox

New Member
Oct 5, 2017
1
Cora or Varitek with an experienced bench coach - Jim Leland? I'm thinking as a bench coach someone who has a lot of experience, who can guide a new manager, but is not necessarily looking to captain the ship at this point in his career.
 

BaseballJones

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Oct 1, 2015
24,671
No offense, man, but you missed the point across the board.
Heh, isn't the first time, won't be the last.

It's not about blame or credit. It's about what's working and what isn't. An even more apt example would be 2013 Farrell vs 2017 Farrell. It's the same guy. The 2013 team was a great mix all around and Farrell was the best guy for the job. Now, they're not responding in the same way. It's a different core group that has different needs.

I also specifically said it wasn't about just where they ended up. It was about how the team performed compared to expectations. Not any one guy, either. If it's half the team underperforming a little bit then you've got a solid case for random variance. If it's present across the board, then its indicative of a tangible/correctable problem.

If the Sox had gone on to dominate in the playoffs this year, we probably aren't having this conversation right now, but that's only because winning would have masked any perceived ares of improvement. People have been calling for his head all season long, and they've posted really good reasons.

It's not a vendetta against Farrell. I think he's great at what he does. I just think that what he does isn't what this team needs right now. And beyond the "blame" for this season is a concern I have for our young core. The younger they are, the more open they'll be to improvement, IMO. And the longer they're out there making stupid baseball mistakes without someone to beat it out of them (figuratively) the harder those bad habits will set in.
I guess the question really is: How do we know that your expectations are fair? I expected them to hit better, but I also didn't expect the number of injuries that they had. I expected Bogaerts to hit for more power but I didn't expect him to get hit on the hand and try to play through it for half the season instead of going on the DL and getting it healed.

I don't know that, given how Houston played, that even if the Sox were meeting my expectations in terms of their performance, that they would have beaten the Astros.

So I hear what you're saying (I think!!!!), but I don't know that your/our expectations were fair. But YMMV.
 

Marbleheader

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Sep 27, 2004
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Chili Davis should get an interview. David Ross, Hale, Varitek, Tony Pena are all guys with Red Sox ties . No pitchers or pitching coaches unless it's Pedro.
 

drbretto

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Apr 10, 2009
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Heh, isn't the first time, won't be the last.



I guess the question really is: How do we know that your expectations are fair? I expected them to hit better, but I also didn't expect the number of injuries that they had. I expected Bogaerts to hit for more power but I didn't expect him to get hit on the hand and try to play through it for half the season instead of going on the DL and getting it healed.

I don't know that, given how Houston played, that even if the Sox were meeting my expectations in terms of their performance, that they would have beaten the Astros.

So I hear what you're saying (I think!!!!), but I don't know that your/our expectations were fair. But YMMV.

That's a fair question/point. Ultimately, I'm not qualified to say my expectations are any better than yours. I'm basing my opinion there mostly on the points others have made here throughout the season. All I can say is from what I can gather, being as rational as I could be about it, I was expecting a more dominant team than this, particularly offensively. And on the offensive end, there's plenty of objective evidence that just about everyone underperformed. Beyond that, I am having a hard time articulating my stance, so I'll let others provide more details.

But, I do think that something like Bogaerts playing through an injury isn't Xander's call. It's Farrell's. But, to be fair back, I'm not 100% sure that was the "wrong" decision (as in, I haven't thought deeply about it, not that I would have done the same thing). It seems wrong in hindsight, but that's not fair. And, the really good examples out there of puzzling decisions he's made are still very much relevant to his case, but that's not about "expectations" so I'll let them stand for themselves.

My opinion hasn't changed, but I don't have anything specific that nullifies yours, so I'm ok with agreeing to disagree on it. I do think the approach is our biggest divider, though. I believe that the manager is responsible for the intangibles by default. MY approach is more about whether or not someone else could do better than it is about whether or not Farrell "deserves" to be fired. I think the case for someone else stepping in and doing a better job is compelling, and I've put Farrell on a block where I would need a compelling reason I shouldn't look into other candidates. That may seem like guilty until proven innocent, but this isn't a criminal trial. Firing a manager isn't necessarily a black mark.
 
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