Farrell Fails Again

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Byrdbrain

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It is not "plain clear truth" it is an opinion and one I find similar to most of the other opinions in here that is based on the results after the fact. That a baseball player couldn't stand near second base and not get hurt is surprising, it was a dumb play by Wright to put himself in a position to have to dive back. I'm aware he doesn't do this all the time but he seems like a fairly intelligent person it isn't that hard to know what to do there.

It is an arguable decision for sure but assuming you wanted to PR for Ortiz there Farrell didn't have many options. The only other option was Pomerantz(assuming you don't want to run post-knee surgery ERod) which may have been better but I believe it was his throwing day so he may have been thought of as a guy who could pitch an inning in an emergency. Farrell certainly didn't help himself by saying he used Wright because he looked comfortable in bp.

I'm pretty agnostic on Farrell and think he is a below average in game manager but those in here who jump on everything that goes wrong to blame it on him make themselves look silly in my opinion.
 

joe dokes

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Guy, SF won, 6-2. I mean, it's fine to make the counterargument, and I'm basically agnostic on this issue, but you're grasping. Those calling for his head are not roasting Farrell for a 6-2 win.
I disagree. The use of the LOOGY to face a string of RHHs would go straight to his permanent record, to be pulled out as proof that he can't manage a bullpen the next time the bullpen coughs one up.

For instance:
In any event, I don't want to isolate this one decision. More generally, Farrell has a habit of using his better bullpen arms in meaningless situations. In turn, his better bullpen arms aren't always available in key situations where a win or loss is at stake. His poor bullpen management probably costs the Red Sox several games each year.
 

FanSinceBoggs

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There are certain pitchers you can't use in that situation no matter what, and Wright was one of them. Wright has been a top of the rotation pitcher this season, has helped keep the Red Sox competitive this year, and is arguably the team MVP. You can't take chances with a pitcher like that.

When the Red Sox deliberate on Farrell's future in the off-season, I do think this decision should be weighed negatively against him.
 
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joe dokes

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There are certain pitchers you can't use in that situation no matter what, and Wright was one of them. Wright has been a top of the rotation pitcher this season, has helped keep the Red Sox competitive this year, and is arguably the team MVP. You can use Buchholz in that situation, he sucks shit anyway, but you can't take chances with a valuable, contributing starting pitcher.

When the Red Sox deliberate on Farrell's future in the off-season, I do think this decision should be weighed negatively against him.
Yeah, lets burn a reliever as a PR in the 5th inning that we might need in this very game. Then, when Farrell brings in one of the "good" relievers in a losing cause, it will be his fault when that reliever has to pitch in a close game tomorrow and has nothing because, as we all know:
Farrell has a habit of using his better bullpen arms in meaningless situations. In turn, his better bullpen arms aren't always available in key situations where a win or loss is at stake.
 

Byrdbrain

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There are certain pitchers you can't use in that situation no matter what, and Wright was one of them. Wright has been a top of the rotation pitcher this season, has helped keep the Red Sox competitive this year, and is arguably the team MVP. You can use a dog shit pitcher like Buchholz in that situation, but you can't take chances with a valuable starting pitcher like Wright.

When the Red Sox deliberate on Farrell's future in the off-season, I do think this decision should be weighed negatively against him.
Clay was warming up in the bullpen, using him to pinch run in that situation was not exactly an option. If you were going to pinch run you had to use a starting pitcher, the only options were ERod, Pomerantz and Wright as Porcello flew back early and wasn't there.

When the Sox deliberate his future it will be based on the results of the season and if they make the playoffs. Wright being hurt could negatively impact those chances so in a way you will get your wish.
 

dynomite

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Clay was warming up in the bullpen, using him to pinch run in that situation was not exactly an option. If you were going to pinch run you had to use a starting pitcher, the only options were ERod, Pomerantz and Wright as Porcello flew back early and wasn't there..
Exactly. Like another poster recently, I'm agnostic on Farrell -- we should make T-shirts -- but of all the "fire Farrell!!" bullet points, the Wright injury seems like bad luck as much as anything else. The team was squeezed for bench players in an NL game, so a pitcher needed to run.

Steven Wright is a professional baseball player; he should be able to run the bases a few times without getting injured. And I don't think you need to be a Bumgarner-esque "baseball players today are soft!" Neanderthal to think so.

Just two weeks ago board-favorite Bruce Bochy pinch hit Bumgarner and then pinch ran for him with Samardzija. http://m.mlb.com/cutfour/2016/07/31/192901034/madison-bumgarner-jeff-samardzija-pinch-hit-pinch-run-score-runs

If you want to second guess the Wright decision, it seems to me that the question is: why not pinch run Pomeranz instead? He had 33 ABs in San Diego this season -- including a HR!
 

Rudy's Curve

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Bochy is widely regarded as one of the game's best. Last night he helped turn a 6-0 lead with 2 out and no one on into a save situation for his closer when he replaced Romo, who walked Chris Davis with two outs and no one on after he struck out the first two hitters in the 9th. He brought in Javy Lopez when he *had* to know that the Orioles would put up a righty to PH for Alvarez, then a righty after that. Both guys got on. (*then* he gave up a weak hit to a LHH, which I think speaks more to Lopez being near the end of the line than anything else.) Casilla got the final out on a one-pitch grounder.

If Barnes walked a guy with 2 outs and no one on after striking out the first two batters in the 9th of a 6-0 game, then Abad came in and let 2 RHH's get on, then Kimbrel had to come in to finish it, Farrell would be roasted on a spit, even in victory.
Not to turn this into a Bochy thread but I thought he managed it pretty well. Alvarez was PHing for Joseph so he made Buck burn him without an AB, causing him to use his last non-LHH (Wieters) in that spot which guaranteed he'd have Lopez against Flaherty in the pitcher's spot if it came to that point. If he leaves Romo in, he has to face Alvarez which is a bad matchup and then if Reimold also reached, you would have Wieters on his stronger side (at least this year). So basically he chose Lopez vs. RH Wieters/Reimold/Flaherty as opposed to Romo vs. Alvarez/Reimold/LH Wieters. I think he played it right.
 

YTF

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As an organisation they should work on certain fundamentals more than they seem to. I've no issues with pitchers being used to run in that sort of situation but they need to be prepared to do so. This injury a result of Wright having much too much of a lead off second. I don't fault Farrell for the move, but there needs to be an organisational thought process to having players prepared to do things when called on.
 

joe dokes

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Not to turn this into a Bochy thread but I thought he managed it pretty well. Alvarez was PHing for Joseph so he made Buck burn him without an AB, causing him to use his last non-LHH (Wieters) in that spot which guaranteed he'd have Lopez against Flaherty in the pitcher's spot if it came to that point. If he leaves Romo in, he has to face Alvarez which is a bad matchup and then if Reimold also reached, you would have Wieters on his stronger side (at least this year). So basically he chose Lopez vs. RH Wieters/Reimold/Flaherty as opposed to Romo vs. Alvarez/Reimold/LH Wieters. I think he played it right.
Fair enough. I dont completely agree, but to bring it back to the thread topic, I also think you illustrated the larger point.
 

HomeRunBaker

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When the Sox deliberate his future it will be based on the results of the season and if they make the playoffs. Wright being hurt could negatively impact those chances so in a way you will get your wish.
Or it could positively impact those chances by not being "forced" to pitch Wright in 90+ degree high humidity conditions during these two starts that he will miss. We already won the first game he missed which we otherwise may not have.

Clay was warming up in the bullpen, using him to pinch run in that situation was not exactly an option. If you were going to pinch run you had to use a starting pitcher, the only options were ERod, Pomerantz and Wright as Porcello flew back early and wasn't there.
I'm curious as to why Wright was the option over the more experienced baserunner Pomeranz who came over from the NL after having reached base 5 times this season and 7 times in 2012. I don't buy that it was his side session day as reasoning since the only way he'd be used is in an extended extra-inning game......although the chances of the game going 14 was probably in the same range of probability as Wright meandering far enough off the bag to feel he must dive headfirst back into the bag. Either situation are freak incidents but personally I probably use Pomeranz based on familiarity with being out there this season.
 

shawnrbu

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Or it could positively impact those chances by not being "forced" to pitch Wright in 90+ degree high humidity conditions during these two starts that he will miss. We already won the first game he missed which we otherwise may not have.
Wright was scheduled to pitch Thursday on 5 days rest against a Yankees team he has had a lot of success against. Sox lost the game, but Rodriguez pitching on 4 days rest did pitch a gem, so it is not like Wright's absence so far has had a negative effect on the overall W/L record.
 

Rovin Romine

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Guy, SF won, 6-2. I mean, it's fine to make the counterargument, and I'm basically agnostic on this issue, but you're grasping. Those calling for his head are not roasting Farrell for a 6-2 win.
The Farrell critique is very results oriented - if he had the team in first, well set up/rested for a run into the post season, and had a track record of post season management (Playoff Tito style), there wouldn't be much to dislike, barring the greater criticism of the quirks in the pitching staff during the last few years, and young player usage. Even that would be subordinate to the final product though. No one expects perfection, but it's OK to demand occasional success.

See now that is the kind of 20/20 hindsight this thread was built on, the rest of you should take notes.
I originally thought the Wright thing was minor; now that the points have been raised about Drew pinch running, I'm thinking it's less so. Hopefully it'll ultimately be harmless. FWIW, there's certainly an element of damned if you do, damned if you don't hovering about Farrell. For example, if Drew had pinch ran and hurt himself we'd see a lot of criticism as to why Farrell couldn't use anyone less expendable than a starting pitcher. However, in the injured-Drew hypothetical, no one would have been arguing that Farrell ought to have run Wright instead of Drew.
 

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Stop blaming the manager for injuries, OK? It takes away from more rational arguments. Chrissake, Wright could have been injured shagging balls the next day and out for the season. Ortiz could have broken his foot because no one decided to pinch run for him. Swihart running into a wall prevented him from blowing out his elbow for a year on a throw to 2nd base later that week...

It's a stupid game to play this game. If Wright was an NL pitcher there would be no discussion.
 

Moviegoer

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You really don't see a difference between a player hurting themself in the normal course of their game and a player who gets hurt doing something he should never been put in there to do in the first place? I mean, I'd be shocked if he's even the fastest pitcher on the team.
 

BestGameEvah

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Was listening to WEEI pregame yesterday and they stated that
Marcus Stroman was used to pinch run 6 times in 2014, the
same year he want 11-6 on the mound.
 

nothumb

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I don't have a big issue with him running Wright. If anything, Pom's recent experience hitting is reason to hold him back in case you need someone to hit AND run later. Probably doesn't come to that, but it's still more likely than Wright injuring himself on a deke throw.
 

Byrdbrain

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Well of course the "something he should never have been put in there to do in the first place" part is kind of what is being discussed isn't it. If you start from there then of course it was a "Farrell Failure"(TM). Pitchers pinch run in the NL on a fairly regular basis and most of those guys rarely get on base so it isn't like they have all that much practice.
As for being the fastest pitcher on the team no he probably isn't but as has been discussed there were three realistic options to pinch run, Wright, ERod and Pomeranz.
ERod recently had knee surgery and I think most would agree he wasn't a good choice. Pomeranz was a decent hitting pitcher in the NL and in a vacuum would make the most sense but he was on his throw day so there was an exceedingly slim chance that he might pitch in the game so he was held back. The only other alternative to pinch run was Wright who according to Farrell looked like a "baseball player" in bp so he decided to go with him.
He could have stuck with Ortiz who may not be much slower than Wright in any event.
 

joe dokes

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You really don't see a difference between a player hurting themself in the normal course of their game and a player who gets hurt doing something he should never been put in there to do in the first place? I mean, I'd be shocked if he's even the fastest pitcher on the team.
I believe that's a good example of begging the question.
 

Harry Hooper

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Not hindsight for me at least. Back in the game thread, I posted at the time it was a bad idea to have your ace starting pitcher pinch running in a situation where he was the tying run and likely to be headed for a play at the plate on a base hit.

Having said that, if Wright was told to just play it station to station and freelanced into a big lead off 2B, that would be more on Wright and not Farrell.
 

dynomite

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The Farrell critique is very results oriented - if he had the team in first, well set up/rested for a run into the post season, and had a track record of post season management (Playoff Tito style), there wouldn't be much to dislike, ... No one expects perfection, but it's OK to demand occasional success.
I get that in years past, but his year the team is in a Wild Card spot, 2 games out of 1st, with the 4th best record in the AL. If results are all that matter, isn't this a decent result and "occasional success"?
 

Rovin Romine

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I get that in years past, but his year the team is in a Wild Card spot, 2 games out of 1st, with the 4th best record in the AL. If results are all that matter, isn't this a decent result and "occasional success"?
We'll know at the end of the season.

I look at Farrell this way. He had some meh years in Toronto - some Jays fans/writers thought he did less with those teams than they were capable of.

He was hired by Boston with the expectation he'd get better with more seasoning, and his first year as a manager with the Sox was good. It wasn't brilliant though - he made some blunders but ultimately got the job done with a veteran team that was highly motivated (Boston bombings/new club/Farewell my Valentine.) (He gets points for doing well, but he more or less found the team as it was.)

Farrell has followed this with a Meh-fest. 2014 started weak, never got off the ground, and ended in a flurry of trades. 2015 was similar - very uneven efforts and performances. There were questionable signings. The pitching staff stagnated. There were injuries. It's not like Farrell drove two good teams into the ground, but there were two quasi-competetive teams (that likely required a lot of hands-on from the coaching staff) that ended up in the toilet.

Now he has a strong team stacked with younger players - one that, barring catastrophe outside of Farrell's control, should make the post-season in good order, despite the underperformance of some of it's members.

If he can't find a way to make this team work, in the sense of keeping this team competitive and guiding them into the post season, the Sox need to seriously consider a replacement.

I think he can still be a winning manager on a stacked team - but I believe he's absolutely the wrong man to squeeze out some extra wins to get a team over the top.
 

FanSinceBoggs

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but we still have a couple of guys on the bench when Farrell used Wright to pinch run?

Boxscore:
http://www.espn.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=360807119

I don't care how slow my bench guys are, or my plans to give a guy a day off, I'm going to use a regular player over Steven Wright to pinch run every time. I also don't care that I'm thinning out my bench. I'll thin out my bench before using Steven Wright to pinch run. I'll keep Ortiz in the game before using Steven Wright to pinch run (Farrell kept Ortiz in the game while at 1b). There is no way that Steven Wright is pinch running--it is as simple as that.

Pomeranz made more sense too IMO (coming from the NL). I'm in agreement with M.Hurley on this:
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2016/08/12/john-farrell-gets-a-bit-defensive-when-questioned-about-steven-wrights-pinch-running-mishap/
It was a highly questionable decision, and that’s not only said with the benefit of hindsight.
 
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rembrat

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It's not that the guys left on the bench were slow or they had a day off it's that they were being held back to potentially pinch hit and one of them is your only remaining catcher. It's a NL game and pitchers are sometimes required to do a baseball activity like run the bases. No one asked Steven Wright to be Dave Roberts. He was in simply to prevent further wear and tear on David Ortiz' feet. God. This. Place. Fucking. Sucks.
 

YTF

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but we still have a couple of guys on the bench when Farrell used Wright to pinch run?
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I may well be), but at that point I think the bench choices would have been Leon and Ramirez. In the sixth inning of a game that you're trailing and may need to hit for your pitcher at least once more (which is exactly what Ramirez did in the 9th), might they be better served as pinch hitters instead of pinch runners. And you know the whole thing about not burning your backup catcher just in case.... AND STOP MAKING ME DEFEND FARRELL!!!
 

FanSinceBoggs

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It's not that the guys left on the bench were slow or they had a day off it's that they were being held back to potentially pinch hit and one of them is your only remaining catcher. It's a NL game and pitchers are sometimes required to do a baseball activity like run the bases. No one asked Steven Wright to be Dave Roberts. He was in simply to prevent further wear and tear on David Ortiz' feet. God. This. Place. Fucking. Sucks.
Farrell doesn't take Ortiz out while Oritz is at 1b and so the Ortiz health argument isn't fully convincing. If you don't want to burn a bench player, you keep Ortiz out there. Another alternative: burn a bench guy before you use Steven Wright as a pinch runner. Sure, burning a bench guy isn't ideal in that scenario, but the opposite scenario is even less appealing: putting your best starting pitcher in a unfamiliar situation where there is potential for injury.

There are certain things that you don't do as a competent manager and using Steven Wright to pinch run is one of those things.
 
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YTF

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Farrell doesn't take Ortiz out while Oritz is at 1b and so the Ortiz health argument seems kind of weak. If you don't want to burn a bench player, you keep Ortiz out there. Another alternative: burn a bench guy before you use Steven Wright as a pinch runner. Sure, burning a bench guy isn't ideal in that scenario, but the opposite scenario is less appealing: putting your best starting pitcher in a unfamiliar situation where there is potential for injury.

There are certain things that you don't do as a competent manager and using Steven Wright to pinch run is one of those things.
Taking Ortiz out before he get's into scoring position unnecessarily speeds up that risk that you're condemning.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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I don't care how slow my bench guys are, or my plans to give a guy a day off, I'm going to use a regular player over Steven Wright to pinch run every time. I also don't care that I'm thinning out my bench. I'll thin out my bench before using Steven Wright to pinch run.
This isn't just a Farrell thing, but I feel like baseball managers and GMs make a lot of terrible decisions on fear of thinning out the bench. I see a lot of "Well, what would we do in the 15th inning if we..." sort of decisions being made in the 9th inning, and that's just not really an optimal way to do things. They're preemptively doing something suboptimal to keep from having to do something suboptimal later.

Teams also seem to do this in roster management - they plan for these low probability events (like pinch hitting for a guy, and then having his backup get hurt) - where these things are rare enough that you're doing more damage constantly carrying a backup-to-the-backup than you're saving in the case it actually happens.

From what I can tell looking at his minor league stats, Wright had 0 plate appearances in the minors, and has struck out in 3 of the 5 plate appearances he's had as a Major leaguer. There's a very real chance that the last time he actually ran the bases was in High School. I think the argument that Steven Wright was more likely to hurt himself than either one of the position players, or even David Ortiz, is a pretty reasonable argument.

Didn't Clay hurt himself on the bases a couple years ago? I know he was asked to pinch run a couple times.
 

joe dokes

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Farrell doesn't take Ortiz out while Oritz is at 1b and so the Ortiz health argument isn't fully convincing. If you don't want to burn a bench player, you keep Ortiz out there. Another alternative: burn a bench guy before you use Steven Wright as a pinch runner. Sure, burning a bench guy isn't ideal in that scenario, but the opposite scenario is even less appealing: putting your best starting pitcher in a unfamiliar situation where there is potential for injury.

There are certain things that you don't do as a competent manager and using Steven Wright to pinch run is one of those things.

So now you're suggesting that one of the options was *not* taking Ortiz out at all? If nothing else, you've managed to out-flank even the hardest-core Farrell-disliker.
 

Byrdbrain

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While I disagree with pretty much every word FSB has written in this thread not taking Ortiz out was an option. Of course if he got hurt or got thrown out on the bases posters like him would be on here complaining about that too.
 

joe dokes

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While I disagree with pretty much every word FSB has written in this thread not taking Ortiz out was an option. Of course if he got hurt or got thrown out on the bases posters like him would be on here complaining about that too.
According to the principals at the time, Ortiz was hurting when they took him out. He wasn't dead, so technically, he didn't have to come out; but as a practical matter it certainly seemed like he did.
 

YTF

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While I disagree with pretty much every word FSB has written in this thread not taking Ortiz out was an option. Of course if he got hurt or got thrown out on the bases posters like him would be on here complaining about that too.
Or if he held up at third when perhaps he should have scored and was stranded there. I don't think that leaving him there was really much of an option. He's been pinch run for in this sort of situation in the past.
 

uncannymanny

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It's not that the guys left on the bench were slow or they had a day off it's that they were being held back to potentially pinch hit and one of them is your only remaining catcher. It's a NL game and pitchers are sometimes required to do a baseball activity like run the bases. No one asked Steven Wright to be Dave Roberts. He was in simply to prevent further wear and tear on David Ortiz' feet. God. This. Place. Fucking. Sucks.
Replace everyone that's about to make a mistake. This isn't that hard.
 

HomeRunBaker

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He didn't have to squeeze out extra wins in 2013 - in fact he underperformed his pythag.

And, at this point in 2013, we were 72-51, two games up on the Rays and 5 up on Bal.

That would look pretty sweet right now.
Of course he gets zero credit in getting a bunch of retreads to that point. Pythag doesn't tell a true story as it penalizes Farrell for the 7 or 8 double digit wins we had that season which is silly. Pretty sure we had two 20-run games that year too.
 

czar

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I am very sad we don't live in an alternate universe where, if David Ortiz (who was one day removed from having to be lifted due to "general soreness") stayed in the game and had injured himself, we'd be blessed with 10 additional pages in this thread.

And JF didn't PR from the bench because it was the 6th inning of an NL game where he had 2 hitters left and the pitcher slot comes up at least once more. I'm too lazy to actually pull the database numbers, but rest assured, the +WPA from having a guy like Hanley available to bat later in the game is assuredly way more than the -WPA associated with "hey, Steven Wright, just stand at 2nd base and run to 3rd when Butter yells at you to and then you can go back to sitting on the bench the rest of the game."

C'mon, guys.
 

Rovin Romine

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Of course he gets zero credit in getting a bunch of retreads to that point. Pythag doesn't tell a true story as it penalizes Farrell for the 7 or 8 double digit wins we had that season which is silly. Pretty sure we had two 20-run games that year too.
He gets credit, but if you're not going to bother reading the posts (and posters) that have already given him such, there's not much point in discussing it.
 

uncannymanny

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I wish they were better than having a playoff-qualifying position in the standings all year [emoji30] Man, people are right; Boston fans have become truly insufferable.
 

Rovin Romine

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I wish they were better than having a playoff-qualifying position in the standings all year [emoji30] Man, people are right; Boston fans have become truly insufferable.
I'd like to see Ortiz in the post season one last time. I think this team should get there, barring random misfortune; I think it's Farrell's responsibility to wisely manage them so they do get there.

I understand people find it more important to blindly root for John Farrell's job security. But you're fans too. I think.
 

Plympton91

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Of course he gets zero credit in getting a bunch of retreads to that point. Pythag doesn't tell a true story as it penalizes Farrell for the 7 or 8 double digit wins we had that season which is silly. Pretty sure we had two 20-run games that year too.
You're, right. There were no players on that 2013 who'd ever been good before and none of them have been any good since, either.

Do you wanna build a strawman?
 
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