Farrell Fails Again
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I appreciate that article, particularly the point about the line drive off the knee and no Ks as Price went later into the game. At some point you've got to have the pen up earlier.
I hate to agree because I think the manager gets blamed too much but I have to agree. Especially with the 2 strong starts and limited 'pen usage the past couple of days (57 total pitches by guys not named Clay)
I disagree.
Price got a 1-2-3 in the 7th (one weak one back to him) and was going to be facing the 7-8-9 hitters in the lineup in the 8th. Maybe Farrell would have pulled him for the 8th if they were loud outs, and it appeared as though he was hurting, but that didn't happen.
Zunino, as you noted was completely futile against him in the past and jumped on the first pitch.
Leonys Martin is a left-handed hitter, so I guess if you wanted to have Abad come in and face him there, you could have, but then you have 4 batters until Cano which is probably what you want to save him for. Or maybe you use Ross. Debatable.
Sardinas has a .487 OPS this year and (career .530). Were you going to warm up Barnes or Ziegler just to face him?
Also, the first two guys jumped on the first pitch, so there really isn't a whole lot of time to get someone ready just in case in the very unlikely event he doesn't retire the first three batters?
Barnes came in, and did his thing, and then Abad blew his one job.
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Price got a 1-2-3 in the 7th (one weak one back to him) and was going to be facing the 7-8-9 hitters in the lineup in the 8th. Maybe Farrell would have pulled him for the 8th if they were loud outs, and it appeared as though he was hurting, but that didn't happen.
Zunino, as you noted was completely futile against him in the past and jumped on the first pitch.
Leonys Martin is a left-handed hitter, so I guess if you wanted to have Abad come in and face him there, you could have, but then you have 4 batters until Cano which is probably what you want to save him for. Or maybe you use Ross. Debatable.
Sardinas has a .487 OPS this year and (career .530). Were you going to warm up Barnes or Ziegler just to face him?
Also, the first two guys jumped on the first pitch, so there really isn't a whole lot of time to get someone ready just in case in the very unlikely event he doesn't retire the first three batters?
Barnes came in, and did his thing, and then Abad blew his one job.
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The argument would be that in the 8th it might be prudent to have a guy warming anyway. Obviously a lot of this is hindsight, but there wasn't a really good reason to try to squeeze 8 out of Price last night. Pen was in good shape.
Correct. At that point however Price was cruising at 89 pitches. But the manager should have had someone ready to go just incase. Hindsight. Either way you can blame Farrell for a handful of losses but this one probably isn't on him.
The last out of the 7th would have been a HR in many MLB parks. IIRC, the preceding grounder to Hill came on a rather fat pitch.
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It happened so fast that it's hard to fault Farrell's moment-to-moment in-game choices.
But what I don't understand is why it isn't just team policy that as a starter goes into the eighth there's a lefty and a righty warming? A starter into the eighth is a rarity these days. So the chances that such a policy puts significant unnecessary warm-up mileage on bullpen arms is pretty small.
I think there's still some vestigial machismo that says a starter doesn't like to see someone warming behind him if he doesn't feel he's in trouble. It's taken as a signal that the manager doesn't have confidence in you. If you had a policy, that goes away.
But what I don't understand is why it isn't just team policy that as a starter goes into the eighth there's a lefty and a righty warming? A starter into the eighth is a rarity these days. So the chances that such a policy puts significant unnecessary warm-up mileage on bullpen arms is pretty small.
I think there's still some vestigial machismo that says a starter doesn't like to see someone warming behind him if he doesn't feel he's in trouble. It's taken as a signal that the manager doesn't have confidence in you. If you had a policy, that goes away.
I don't think this particularly well-argued.
It's claimed Price should have been pulled after the line drive off the knee in the 6th, but it's also mentioned in passing he got through the 7th. He did this on 10 pitches by eliciting weak contact.
The fact that Price hadn't struck anyone out for 8 batters is supposed to be some kind of warning sign, but again mainly because he had just cruised through two quick 10-pitch innings. 6th inning had some hard contact through the top of the order, sandwiched between a dominant 5th and 7th. I just don't see how this is a red flag-- looked like a guy pitching to soft contact and looking to go the distance.
That Price had thrown 109 pitches against the Angels is supposed to be some sort of warning sign. Actually, the game before his gem against the Angels he had thrown 106 pitches. In fact, he had topped 100 pitches in each of his last 5 games going into last night: 106, 106, 113, 109, 103. He's 5th in MLB for total pitches thrown. At 90 pitches you figure he has at least one more inning in him, maybe two based on his track record.
So Farrell threw "caution to the wind" by planning to bring on three bullpen specialists in one inning, each to get one guy out?
It's annoying when things turn on you so quickly, but it's also what's great about baseball. Price imploded insanely quickly. Farrell went to his best options. Abad threw a not-low-and-away-enough curve to a great hitter. Some other games he's botched, this ain't one of them.
It's claimed Price should have been pulled after the line drive off the knee in the 6th, but it's also mentioned in passing he got through the 7th. He did this on 10 pitches by eliciting weak contact.
The fact that Price hadn't struck anyone out for 8 batters is supposed to be some kind of warning sign, but again mainly because he had just cruised through two quick 10-pitch innings. 6th inning had some hard contact through the top of the order, sandwiched between a dominant 5th and 7th. I just don't see how this is a red flag-- looked like a guy pitching to soft contact and looking to go the distance.
That Price had thrown 109 pitches against the Angels is supposed to be some sort of warning sign. Actually, the game before his gem against the Angels he had thrown 106 pitches. In fact, he had topped 100 pitches in each of his last 5 games going into last night: 106, 106, 113, 109, 103. He's 5th in MLB for total pitches thrown. At 90 pitches you figure he has at least one more inning in him, maybe two based on his track record.
So Farrell threw "caution to the wind" by planning to bring on three bullpen specialists in one inning, each to get one guy out?
It's annoying when things turn on you so quickly, but it's also what's great about baseball. Price imploded insanely quickly. Farrell went to his best options. Abad threw a not-low-and-away-enough curve to a great hitter. Some other games he's botched, this ain't one of them.
In the sixth inning, Luis Sardinas hit a hard comebacker off the left lower quad of Price, who stayed in the game after a brief consult on the mound with Farrell and the training staff. The flesh wound had no impact on what happened two innings later.
“No, I was fine,” Price said. “Got me in the muscle in my leg somewhere. That wasn’t a factor
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox/2016/08/another_promising_david_price_start_quickly_turns_into_gut_wrenching_defeat
I think this goes back to Tito who was very averse to having relievers warm up without coming into the game. Ultimately, I'm not sure how big the downside is to having a reliever warm up but not enter the game. Conversely a game like last night where not having a reliever ready to go lets the game snowball out of control very quickly.
To me, an underrated part of pitcher's fatigue is the amount of times they've had to sit down and get back up. Yes, the pitch count may be reasonable at 90, but the adrenaline spikes and crashes of pitching into the 8th is significant. Anecdotally, I can remember countless times where pitchers in the late innings with reasonable pitch counts have completely and quickly lost it.
Farrell needs to be more on top of all the indicators of fatigue: pitch count, mechanics, hard hit balls, getting plunked on the knee, how many times the pitcher has gotten up/sat down, how stressful the innings pitched have been, etc. There's plenty of evidence that he really blundered in not having anyone warming to start the 8th. Did he provide any reasoning in the post game?
What percentage of ML starters would be honest about how much pain they are in or if the injury contributed to poor performance? At some point a manager needs to make the decision and not look for a player to complain or ask out of the game.
Price faced one over the minimum his last three inning before the 8th. What indicators?
No one despises Farrell more than me, but I have to agree with Rembrat (aka John Farrell's son) on this one (I know he hasn't posted yet, he's "sitting this one out"). He looked fine the inning before and it happened super-fast. The call was to go to Ziegler for the DP but it became apparent they weren't going to pitch Kimbrel back-to-back days after just coming off the DL (so BZ was the apparent closer). Farrell played the right matchups and HOF Cano hit a jack.
Agreed. That would be a key aspect of the manager's job. And the aspect that Farrell failed at last night (in addition to failing at it multiple times this season, but I digress).
The manager's job is to be prepared "IF" this or that happens. What's the plan? Think ahead... if this happens, then that happens - what do you do, John?
The argument about last night is that - yet again - Farrell was watching the game, not managing the game. Had he sent word to the bullpen after Price is hit by a batted ball, that guy - whomever it is - is closer to "warm." I get that Price is cruising, which he's done infrequently this season, but when he's cruising into the late innings, it is essential the manager start thinking about when or if to relieve the starter. Not get caught watching the game.
Had someone been up and ready, and Farrell chose to stick with Price after the Zunino homer - that would be far more defensible. He made a decision. It didn't work out. That happens. He gets paid to make decisions. But to - again - be caught unaware, unprepared, and not ready for the game to change within a few at bats is a consistent failing of John Farrell. The manager's job is difficult, but Farrell makes it harder than it needs to be through his penchant for ball watching.
Just a guess, but I'm thinking stuff like mechanics, hard hit balls, getting plunked on the knee, how many times the pitcher has gotten up/sat down, how stressful the innings pitched have been, etc.
I'd have to look again, but usually the biggest indicator that a pitcher's getting tired is command, not velocity.
If Price was in pain at any point his catcher or his coaching staff would have picked up on a cue. A slight grimace, a look of befuddlement, lingering off the mound, etc. How many times are we watching a game when a pitcher throws a pitch, seems fine to us, but gets swarmed by his catcher and his manager/head trainer because they noticed something we couldn't possibly see? A lot.
As of this afternoon he hasn't gone in for x-rays. I'm going to go ahead and take his word that the comebacker wasn't a factor.
Point taken.
But if a muscle is going to stiffen up, tighten, or ache a bit more, it is after some time has passed, and you've sat on the bench for a few minutes. Even if it's not an injury, or didn't result in immediate pain (thanks adrenaline!), getting hit by a batted ball is going to have some effect - even it's just some lactic acid buildup and bruising.
Also, while I understand things moved fast, and there are often no clear answers, there's no real reason to let a starter struggle in the 8th when you've entered with a 4-0 lead. At that point the guy's job is done, particularly with the pen in good rest shape. He shut them down over 7, it's late, pat him on the ass and call it a night.
Had they badly needed Price to go 8 because the pen was a mess and tired, I could see leaving him out there for 4 batters. But, they didn't. It honestly smacked of Gump leaving Pedro out there in 2003 because "I need one more inning out of you." No you don't. The pen is rested and ready.
Had they badly needed Price to go 8 because the pen was a mess and tired, I could see leaving him out there for 4 batters. But, they didn't. It honestly smacked of Gump leaving Pedro out there in 2003 because "I need one more inning out of you." No you don't. The pen is rested and ready.
I am sensitive to the hindsight concerns, but several of us super-qualified in-game managers in the game thread were vocal about it well before it happened. He gave up 4 straight hits in the 8th inning, including a home run. That just shouldn't happen.
This is the point. In fact, you can argue that since Price has gone 8 innings more than any other Sox starter this season, here was the perfect chance to cut him off after 7 and let the pen take the final 2 innings.
I was interested in Scotian's post in last night's game thread,
Obviously, this conclusion can be subject to research, which I haven't done, but perhaps someone else can verify whether or not Price has a history of losing it fast. (That's the impression I have of watching his post-season appearances). If that's the case, relievers ought to start warming for the late innings.
OK, a liner to 3rd and a warning track fly ball, but mostly weak contact.
He was hit in the quad not the knee.
Velo is maybe a little down in 8th but if so very slightly. Have to defer to others on release point etc.
Gotten up / sat down? I'd assume as many times as any other pitcher who pitches into the 8th inning. Seriously?
Stressful? Dude was cruising through a shutout.
I agree with this take. To my untrained eyes, especially in the postseason, he does lose it quite fast. He's also been left out too long in a lot of postseason starts IIRC. He's a guy who attacks the zone (thus all the Ks) so if he loses just a little bit off his stuff he could start getting hammered pretty good.
Price was up around 80-90 pitches heading to the 8th inning. He was cruising the whole night having only given up 3 hits in 7 innings. With somebody who can give you 110 pitches in an outing without blinking an eye I'd have let him pitch the 8th. However, my criticism of Farrell is this: Why not have somebody warming up behind him just in case there is a sign of trouble? It's a 4 run game so you have your pick of pitchers. It didn't have to be a primary setup guy either. It could have been Ross or Buchholz.
I would caution that I wouldn't necessarily look solely at pitch count in regards to when to pull a pitcher. Location is first thing to go. Look at hard hit outs, lack of Ks, etc.
I agree that there should have been guys warming in the pen at the beginning of the inning.
Last night wasn't a typical 8th inning, get someone up just in case situation. The inning starts with 7, 8, 9 and the guy in the 1 hole doesn't have a major league hit yet. So those 4 guys are reason IMO to give Price more of a leash than normal. I'm OK with sticking with him after the leadoff homer LAST NIGHT, but normally would have wanted someone ready so you could pull him after the leadoff homer if we were playing the Jays, O's, etc.
The third and fourth hitters of the inning were batting .188 & .000. So normally I'd put this on Ferrell, in that situation, last night, I can see it. He had Barnes and Abad ready for the 2, 3, 4, 5 on the 4th time through the order. Where you'd expect damage to come. I just don't think you'd expect 2 in and 2 on after the 7-8-9-1 hitters, especially those 4. Second hitter of the inning is lefty swinging Martin batting .247, so I wouldn't think to pull him there. I'm OK leaving Price in to go after those other 2 guys.
In hindsight, I'd probably say bring Barnes in to face the 1 hitter, who is a righty. So really we're talking about 1 batter too late knowing what we know now. Have to assume Barnes was ready to do that if needed.
So Cano hits a game tying homer instead of a winner. Benintendi hits a gap double scoring Shaw against a hold reliever rather than a closer and we're all happy as shit today. So yea, its on Ferrell, I guess.
The third and fourth hitters of the inning were batting .188 & .000. So normally I'd put this on Ferrell, in that situation, last night, I can see it. He had Barnes and Abad ready for the 2, 3, 4, 5 on the 4th time through the order. Where you'd expect damage to come. I just don't think you'd expect 2 in and 2 on after the 7-8-9-1 hitters, especially those 4. Second hitter of the inning is lefty swinging Martin batting .247, so I wouldn't think to pull him there. I'm OK leaving Price in to go after those other 2 guys.
In hindsight, I'd probably say bring Barnes in to face the 1 hitter, who is a righty. So really we're talking about 1 batter too late knowing what we know now. Have to assume Barnes was ready to do that if needed.
So Cano hits a game tying homer instead of a winner. Benintendi hits a gap double scoring Shaw against a hold reliever rather than a closer and we're all happy as shit today. So yea, its on Ferrell, I guess.
Do we know that though? The Red Sox have been known to not disclose bullpen injuries/sicknesses/etc.
Kimbrel was definitely out, because they don't want him going back-to-back quite yet. Other than maybe Taz, everyone was available
Oh I agree with you on pitch counts. But, most of his innings were low-stress last night. There are games when 80-90 pitches is very high stress when you need to get out of jams constantly. But last night wasn't one of those nights. I almost wish he took him out after 7 great innings and it's another confidence booster for him and for us fans that he's going the right direction. I can see why John let him pitch the 8th considering the low stress and the part of the lineup he was facing. I just wish he'd have had somebody warming just in case the wheels fell off. Hindsight is 20-20.
Pete Abraham @PeteAbe 12h12 hours ago
Price was at 89 pitches through 7 innings, had a 4-0 lead and was facing the bottom of the order which was 0 for 6 vs. him with 3 Ks.
Pete Abraham @PeteAbe 12h12 hours ago
Price also had thrown 15 straight scoreless innings to that point. So the notion a reliever should have been up is based only on the result
Price was at 89 pitches through 7 innings, had a 4-0 lead and was facing the bottom of the order which was 0 for 6 vs. him with 3 Ks.
Pete Abraham @PeteAbe 12h12 hours ago
Price also had thrown 15 straight scoreless innings to that point. So the notion a reliever should have been up is based only on the result
Yeah I read it too. Plunking location was mentioned way upthread. The rest of those arguments were terrible and/or not true. If you want to make some argument for mechanics or pitch location then by all means. Through the 7th inning he was three over the minimum. There is a crazy amount of hindsight in this thread.
This loss falls squarely on Farrell's shoulders.
As others have pointed out, Farrell severely limited his options by not being prepared.
As dominant as Price was, it is inexcusable not to have a rested bullpen warming up in the 8th inning just in case Price goes south (as it did). I have a higher degree of confidence that the Sox win that game if Price is removed after the lead-off homer, or at least within the next 1-2 batters. Farrell had to wait until the tying run was on base because he was reactive, not proactive.
My bigger fear is that Farrell hasn't learned his lesson.
I sincerely believe that a team's flaws become exposed in the playoffs, and Farrell's in-game managing seems like an obvious flaw.
As others have pointed out, Farrell severely limited his options by not being prepared.
As dominant as Price was, it is inexcusable not to have a rested bullpen warming up in the 8th inning just in case Price goes south (as it did). I have a higher degree of confidence that the Sox win that game if Price is removed after the lead-off homer, or at least within the next 1-2 batters. Farrell had to wait until the tying run was on base because he was reactive, not proactive.
My bigger fear is that Farrell hasn't learned his lesson.
I sincerely believe that a team's flaws become exposed in the playoffs, and Farrell's in-game managing seems like an obvious flaw.
This one strikes me as hindsight. You can't blame Farrellnfor Price melting down in all of 2 pitches and then Abad not doing exactly the job he was acquired to do.
I do wonder if Farrell ever would have had Layne pitching in that spot though. And as the other thread is now highlighting, it isn't clear why the organization thinks Abad is better than Layne.
And it also isn't clear why Ross isn't the go to left handed at this point regardless. Our own RudyP used to make the point that left handed hitters just don't like left handed pitchers and the split can be more on the hitter's relative weakness than the pitcher's relative strength. I think against Cano, better to just have the better pitcher in there and ignore the split.
I do wonder if Farrell ever would have had Layne pitching in that spot though. And as the other thread is now highlighting, it isn't clear why the organization thinks Abad is better than Layne.
And it also isn't clear why Ross isn't the go to left handed at this point regardless. Our own RudyP used to make the point that left handed hitters just don't like left handed pitchers and the split can be more on the hitter's relative weakness than the pitcher's relative strength. I think against Cano, better to just have the better pitcher in there and ignore the split.
So we're back to the same Farrell apologists claiming he never bears the blame for anything, claiming hindsight bias when there is evidence in the game threads that many complaints are not in hindsight at all.
And the same game thread warriors who want Farrell gone last week, and believe him to be the worst in-game manager in baseball history* (as does every Blue Jays fan ever). Note: I am in this group.
And there is clearly not going to be a resolution to this.
But can we all agree that Carl Willis should never, ever, ever, visit the mound?
*Non-Grady Little Division
And the same game thread warriors who want Farrell gone last week, and believe him to be the worst in-game manager in baseball history* (as does every Blue Jays fan ever). Note: I am in this group.
And there is clearly not going to be a resolution to this.
But can we all agree that Carl Willis should never, ever, ever, visit the mound?
*Non-Grady Little Division
Another thing good managers do is they won't leave a starter in who had pitched a great game so long that he could end up with a loss or a no decision. Farrell let Price put the tying run on base. I realize that modern baseball statistics don't put big emphasis on pitcher wins, but I have to believe that Price is very upset over his last two starts giving him no wins. Yeah, he could have gotten one of Martin or Sardinas out, but he didn't.
He can't even wait long enough to get someone warm in the pen correctly. So probably, yes.
I have also noticed this in some regular season games over the last couple of years when he was with other teams. Facing the Yankees for instance, he would be cruising through 5 or 6 innings and then all of a sudden give up a lot of back to back hits and 3 or 4 runs would score in the blink of an eye. I have noticed Tanaka has this tendency as well. In some later innings he loses it quickly. Thing is you can never really predict because they both can look so good before the meltdown.
Buchholz had pitched quite a bit lately so there is a chance he was unavailable. Kimbrel was unavailable which means you are most likely saving Ziegler for the 9th. Taz also may not have been available. That leaves you with an 8th inning combo of Ross, Kelly, Barnes and Abad.
That isn't exactly the Nasty Boys or KC bullpen. There was no guarantee that SEA couldn't string together a couple hits/walks against the band of misfits in the bullpen just like they did against Price.
Let's flip the script and assume Price gets high fives after the 7th, despite throwing just 89 pitches, only to watch the bullpen implode.This is exactly what happened in his last start, though I acknowledge defense played a role in that. Perhaps Farrell wanted to let Price finish this one so he didn't have to watch the pen give up yet another game on the road trip. Esp with his closer unavailable.
I'll be impressed when one of these threads starts after a game the Red Sox won and there's still criticism of Farrell. Would this exist if Abad had shut down the M's? By rights, it should. Also, maybe it's better to wait 24 hours before reacting (the facts never change) so that emotion is taken out.
Anyway, it's Farrell's fault. Carry on.
Anyway, it's Farrell's fault. Carry on.
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