EURO 2016 Semi-Finals Game Thread
- Thread starter Drocca
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I got Macca's point which was not about this match. It was that he thinks it's bad for a tournament when a team that plays the way Portugal do wins. Portugal were very "Greece 2004" this tournament and mostly really unenjoyable to watch.
I don't know what I love more. That this song exists or that its on album with "Viva, Viva New Bedford".
Thank you.
They only would have gained an advantage if they had been unable to sub in a substitute.
I guess that makes sense, but they are all really taking it to the extreme with all this stuff about how "Portugal won't care in 30 years". I keep hearing what a crap tournament this was, but I watched almost all of it and enjoyed it. There seems to be this sense of perfect football that if you're constantly chasing as a fan or commentator you tend to miss some pretty good sport.
It's bullshit indeed
Portugal locked down a greatly talented team playing at home who wasn't even locked down by arguably the best team, defense included, in Europe. Without their best player and the best non-felonious player in the world. They deserved it.
Patricio and Pepe both deserve MOM for their defense/gk
Congrats Vinho and TeddyKGB. May your Cacoila and Chourico be moist and delicious tonight.
I live in a very, very Portuguese town. The Social Clubs are going nuts and I hear Stevie B in the background.
I live in a very, very Portuguese town. The Social Clubs are going nuts and I hear Stevie B in the background.
Agreed. If you want perfect soccer, skip the international tournaments (including the World Cup) -- even a novice like me can see that the game is more artistic when it's played by club sides who practice and play with one another eight months per year. But I won't be doing that: I don't give a shit whether Barcelona beats Madrid (either one) or vice versa, but I love watching these guys play with passion for their country.
Serious question: does CR7's happiness for his country outweigh his disappointment that he wasn't a factor in the match?
Would he rather lose a final in which he scores a goal, or pull up lame part way through a Portugal win?
Would he rather lose a final in which he scores a goal, or pull up lame part way through a Portugal win?
The tears he shed after the game were an outpouring of anger from the team winning without him.
What kind an asshole question is this?
I was driving to my birthday dinner halfway through the second half. And I'm drunk.
I don't think it's unfair to call out Portugal for not playing too well this tournament. The finished third in what was a pretty weak group when the group stages are already watered down with a 24 team field. In previous, tournaments they would not have even advanced to the knockout rounds. The Semifinal vs Wales was the only game they managed to win in regulation.
All credit for how they held off France today, especially after losing Ronaldo, but I was completely unimpressed by them over the course of the tournament. I wouldn't bet on them with 2-1 odds if they were to play Germany, France or Italy tomorrow.
All credit for how they held off France today, especially after losing Ronaldo, but I was completely unimpressed by them over the course of the tournament. I wouldn't bet on them with 2-1 odds if they were to play Germany, France or Italy tomorrow.
That was a pretty sweet goal, however.
Beat his man enough, cut the ball back and hit it hard and low to a tough corner. He caught Lloris wrong-footed, and that's hard to do (still Lloris almost got to it, credit to him). It's not that easy to beat a keeper from that far away with a defender in your face, especially a good keeper.
Did Portugal play a pretty tournament? nope. Did they win the games? Yup. And while people wont remember some 'beautiful game' Portugal won Euro 2016. And they did it without the second best player in the world.
They kept a strong France team in check for 120 min and they scored a beautiful goal by a guy with 24 caps and beat one of the top 5 keepers in the world. It isn't beautiful but it got the job done.
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My first thought on the goal was that Lloris should have had it. They did an extensive recap of the whole sequence on the Canadian broadcast. - from the erroneously called free kick right up to the goal .. Focusing on Lloris. He injured his knee trying to stop the free kick off the bar. Proceeded to limp around for the next minute or so. On Eder's shot Llroris didn't use his (injured) right leg at all to push off when diving like a healthy player would. Which probably explains why he couldn't get to it.
Huh, interesting.
It looked to me like Lloris was positioned and ready to stop shots toward three corners of the goal, and Eder did a great job cutting the shot back across the flow of play toward the fourth corner. I thought at the time Lloris would have made the much more difficult save if the shot had gone upper corner. Maybe that was the injury slowing him down or making him lean left.
But I only saw the broadcast replays, and even then I was on mute. Will have to rewatch.
Regardless of Lloris, still a pretty shot to pick up a slog of a game.
From one of the replays, it looked like the shot was well beyond the defender before Lloris reacted to it at all, and by the time he dove he had no chance.
I was not a fan of Portugal's play in this tournament. They skate by on reputation, but they really don't have that much talent (they probably clock in towards the back if not just outside the top 10 in talent). The fact that they hunker down and scrape by results makes sense. On the other hand, when they play open attacking football like against Hungary, it leaves their not-so-good defense open, but leads to a highly entertaining match. I think we used to have a thread about it, but there really are 2 schools of thought on this subject - some people respect a defensive squad that seeks results, aesthetics be damned. I used to be part of this group because all I wanted was for my teams to reach finals and win cups. But, after watching the sport long enough, the bar was raised for me. I want to see my team win, but after going after it and seeing lots of skill and coordination.
Argentina is a great example of this - in WC 06 and 10, the team played an open style that resulted in some of the best team goals of all time and lopsided scorelines against overmatched opponents, but once it came time to play a team of comparable quality (Germany), this attacking style did not achieve results (knocked out in QF both times). Shift to WC 2014, and Sabella remakes the team into a defensively minded, but supremely talented squad. Mostly lackluster group stage, but Argentina was able to scrape by against Switzerland, Belgium, and Netherlands on the way to the final. Since Martino took over, the team has become more well-balanced, attacking openly against overmatched opponents, but dialing it back in more even matchups. They have been to back-to-back Copa America Finals, but just couldn't get over the hump against Chile. A team like Portugal should be able to emulate this and be more aggressive against weaker opponents. Argentina's boogey man, Chile, is not as talented, but always plays pressing aggressive football and it's very entertaining to watch.
Nani put in a SHIFT yesterday. The guy was all over the place and deserves a ton of credit. Pepe is a tool, but he really shined the last couple of games. Renato Sanches is the truth and the dude looks amazing. I think Chrissy was happy to win obviously, but more because of what it means for HIS legacy, not Portugal's. I was very unimpressed with Quaresma, but J. Mario was probably the worst player on the pitch for either team today. Eder played extremely well pretty much from the moment he came on and his goal was very nice, but Umtiti should've tried to close much faster after Eder got away from Kos.
Deschamps messed up his MF for this game, IMO. While this MF selection worked against Germany, Matuidi and Pogba did not ever get comfortable this game. Cissoko was far and away the best MF for France today, but in hindsight, seems like Kante should've had a bigger role on this squad. I agree with the sentiment that Pogba should've done much better yesterday. It may just be because he's young, but he was really struggling to read the game yesterday. He's too talented to be a non-factor like that. Also, Deschamps did not cover himself in glory with his attacking options. Giroud for Martial should've been the first substitution because Giroud was tired and is entirely too slow for a game like yesterday's. Martial is big enough to work with Griezmann up top, but has much more speed to create space in the middle for France's aggressive MF. Coman had a brutal game, but I didn't have a problem bringing on a width player. Keeping Payet on a bit longer once the game seemed headed for ET probably would've made sense though. Taking Sissoko off was a mistake, Pogba has the ability to change the game on a dime, so if he was going to take someone off, perhaps Matuidi would've been an option.
Argentina is a great example of this - in WC 06 and 10, the team played an open style that resulted in some of the best team goals of all time and lopsided scorelines against overmatched opponents, but once it came time to play a team of comparable quality (Germany), this attacking style did not achieve results (knocked out in QF both times). Shift to WC 2014, and Sabella remakes the team into a defensively minded, but supremely talented squad. Mostly lackluster group stage, but Argentina was able to scrape by against Switzerland, Belgium, and Netherlands on the way to the final. Since Martino took over, the team has become more well-balanced, attacking openly against overmatched opponents, but dialing it back in more even matchups. They have been to back-to-back Copa America Finals, but just couldn't get over the hump against Chile. A team like Portugal should be able to emulate this and be more aggressive against weaker opponents. Argentina's boogey man, Chile, is not as talented, but always plays pressing aggressive football and it's very entertaining to watch.
Nani put in a SHIFT yesterday. The guy was all over the place and deserves a ton of credit. Pepe is a tool, but he really shined the last couple of games. Renato Sanches is the truth and the dude looks amazing. I think Chrissy was happy to win obviously, but more because of what it means for HIS legacy, not Portugal's. I was very unimpressed with Quaresma, but J. Mario was probably the worst player on the pitch for either team today. Eder played extremely well pretty much from the moment he came on and his goal was very nice, but Umtiti should've tried to close much faster after Eder got away from Kos.
Deschamps messed up his MF for this game, IMO. While this MF selection worked against Germany, Matuidi and Pogba did not ever get comfortable this game. Cissoko was far and away the best MF for France today, but in hindsight, seems like Kante should've had a bigger role on this squad. I agree with the sentiment that Pogba should've done much better yesterday. It may just be because he's young, but he was really struggling to read the game yesterday. He's too talented to be a non-factor like that. Also, Deschamps did not cover himself in glory with his attacking options. Giroud for Martial should've been the first substitution because Giroud was tired and is entirely too slow for a game like yesterday's. Martial is big enough to work with Griezmann up top, but has much more speed to create space in the middle for France's aggressive MF. Coman had a brutal game, but I didn't have a problem bringing on a width player. Keeping Payet on a bit longer once the game seemed headed for ET probably would've made sense though. Taking Sissoko off was a mistake, Pogba has the ability to change the game on a dime, so if he was going to take someone off, perhaps Matuidi would've been an option.
Yeah, watching that game and his reactions, from injury to the end of the game made my like CR7 more than before.
Team of the tournament:
Rui Patrício
Joshua Kimmich
Jerôme Boateng
Pepe
Raphael Guerreiro
Toni Kroos
Joe Allen
Aaron Ramsey
Dimitri Payet
Antoine Griezmann
Cristiano Ronaldo
Rui Patrício
Joshua Kimmich
Jerôme Boateng
Pepe
Raphael Guerreiro
Toni Kroos
Joe Allen
Aaron Ramsey
Dimitri Payet
Antoine Griezmann
Cristiano Ronaldo
Look, he was more human yesterday than pretty much ever before, but when you've thrown a Chrissy fit at a teammate scoring a goal, you will never get the benefit of the doubt. So, while some say he was the assist coach yesterday, I saw a guy who just couldn't stand the spotlight not being on him. If it roused his teammates, great job well done, but when the final whistle went, he was celebrating with a training staff member, not his teammates.
I don't even know what this means, but I'm sure it makes sense to you.
In other news, a nice display that went viral in the last 24 hours:
Best video I could find. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but yeah, all the players run out to the field, but Ron just hangs out with the one trainer buddy.
One final thought: We know that the tournament is not going back to 16 from 24. The only way to eliminate the incentive to play close to the vest in the group stage is to do something counter intuitive: Expand even more. Mirror the World Cup so that there are 32 teams in 8 groups of 4. Top two from each group advance. "But wouldn't that make the qualification irrelevant?". Even with Holland not qualifying, It's a pretty rote process as is. Might as well not ignore the obvious and make the best of it. Plus, I don't think this tournament was better off without Holland or Scotland.
Agreed, the qualification process does not need to be riveting. Make the tournament more coherent by reestablishing the importance of the group stage, invite more teams (and correspondingly make more $), and be done with it.
Really strange to me that you say that about Joao Mario. I thought he had an OK match and a fine tournament. He's one of those all action midfielders who puts in a shift. Not always the best touch or the greatest vision but a really reliable player. I don't think anyone on Portugal played poorly, really, although Carvalho and Sanches struggled with the press early while France was full of energy closing everything down and counter attacking from advanced positions. As they tired those players came into their own.
For France, I think people here were way too hard on Conan. He had a great impact for his first 15 minutes I thought. As someone rooting for Portugal I can tell you he was terrifying me as he was applying more pressure than Payet was. Some things didn't come off but I think he forced Portugal to make plays more.
I don't understand yearning for Martial. Maybe he would have had a moment but Giroud and then Gignac played their role of burly CB occupying striker. Everyone wants to fawn over Griezmann and he's a wonderful player but he has that space to operate in for a reason. I would agree that France overall probably fielded too defensive a lineup and essentially double pivoting Pogba and Matuidi didn't make a lot of sense in this one. Sissoko ended up storming all over the place but I think there was room to play Pogba more free. This is really easy to say after the match, it looked like he had it spot on for the first 20. In the end, France made a great effort but Portugals keeper and crossbar stood up to their moments of magic. Tactically, it is very hard to press for 120 minutes in the final of a long tournament. France setup to kill the match early and nearly did so. So many of our narratives as fans are built I. The first half hour but that match was far more even from that point forward than those who would say Portugal were negative would have you believe.
Santos rolled the dice with the Eder sub and it paid off big time. Pulling off a midfielder for a striker was very aggressive at the time and given what Portugal had done I expected them to try to hold the draw. Instead he went for it. I'm a really big fan of Moutinho and I thought he made a real difference when he came on but also full credit to Santos for inserting him later I. The match when there would be more space and less defending to do.
As someone who has followed Portugal for a while now, it is so strange to see the team managed well and maximize its talents. So many squads were far more talent d than this one but lacked any pragmatism. So they'd consistently find a way to come up small. This team dominated nobody and could have lost to a moment of bad luck at any step of the way. But I give them credit for having a coherent plan and an interchangeable system and set of players. Even as they win I find myself disillusioned with the style they played as someone who really respects and prefers attacking football. But to me they played something more like a shitry version of Atletico than a true 10 behind the ball park the bus monstrosity. The cross to Ronaldo attack wasn't very effective but it was especially coherent to rely on the glut of solid midfielders and defenders the nation has produced for years to play tight, trust the talent, and find a goal somehow
Actually, if 32 teams qualify for the Euro finals, you could probably significantly shorten the qualifying process as well - one of the reasons it's so long at the moment is that UEFA wants to ensure that all of the big footballing countries/revenue producers make it (barring a Netherlands-scale implosion), similar to how the Champions Cup became the Champions League at club level. But with 32 countries making it, there's almost certainly no chance that a big country will fail to win the few matches it needs to win to make it to the finals. Or you could even do away with qualifying altogether for the highest-rated countries and make the qualifying process more like how qualifying works for certain Olympic sports like ice hockey.
I should point out that the UEFA Nations League is already taking us down this path to some extent ahead of Euro 2020 - I have (probably unrealistically) high hopes that the Nations League might help make run-of-the-mill internationals more exciting and relevant, and if the drudgery of Euro qualifying moves in a direction even more like this I would be very happy.
The main downside of having a 32-team tournament, of course, is that you need a lot of stadiums/infrastructure to host such a tournament, and only a few countries would be capable of doing this. No more bids from the likes of Poland/Ukraine, Austria/Switzerland or Belgium/Netherlands; it'd be England/France/Germany/Italy/Spain as hosts from here on in after 2020. (One could argue that this wouldn't be a bad thing...)
After a couple of games I thought the guy was useless, but as the tournament went on, you really saw how he was everywhere on the pitch, around the ball at all times. Tireless.
I can't stand several of the Portuguese players, but they all had very impressive tournaments. Pepe was a beast and was maybe MOM in the semi, Nani was at his best without showing his worst...he really can be pretty good. Even Quaresma put in a good shift whenever he came on. Ronaldo wasn't at his best but he did what he does in spurts, and while he's a preening douche, he's one of the best players ever and I was genuinely bummed when I saw the agony on his face as he admitted he was done.
Santos really deserves the bulk of the credit though. He knew how to set up this team to win a tournament. While they definitely got some breaks and never played inspiring football, they did everything the had to do to win their first major title. Well deserved congrats to their team and fans.
Perhaps I'm being too hard on Mario, but I remember him losing the ball, making poor runs, and generally not contributing much on offense. If he was doing more defensive work, then mea culpa.
You're also right that Gignac had a good game - if that shot off the post goes in, there's an entirely different tune to this game. But, I think Martial is more dynamic and when trying to break down a defensive team, someone with a bigger toolkit provides the opportunity for advantages.
In the end, I think you're right that the key issue was with Pogba and Matuidi roles and positioning. I've been looking for one of those heat maps for the finals, but can't find one. A Diamond MF setup with Pogba up top probably would've made more sense than the mostly flat 4-4-2 we saw Sunday.
Combined Pogba/Matuidi heat map courtesy of The Ringer:
https://theringer.com/how-portugal-won-the-euros-with-a-ronaldo-ghost-goal-67c175953ee#.7zys2vd0d
They can keep it 24, but get rid of 3rd place teams advancing. So many teams had the backstop of 3rd place, so they didn't need to play to advance to the 2nd round. There was little incentive to try for 1st since 3rd advances plays the same # of games.
If only group winners and 2nd place teams advanced, teams would have to play more aggressively in the group stage. All but 2 group winners would get a bye to the quarterfinals, so there's a real incentive to not only finish in the top 2, but also to win your group, and if you are 1st, to get more points and score more goals than other 1st place teams. And there would be only 2 fewer games than there are now. Losing two games is well worth getting more exciting games to watch.
Edit - mixed up 24 team format with 20 team format, which I would actually prefer
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