Fox has the rights to AFL at the moment. There's a live game at midnight on FS2 and another pair of live games on Fox Soccer Plus at 11pm tomorrow and 2:30am Sunday. Fun to watch.
ESPN Is Pathetic
- Thread starter Lose Remerswaal
- Start date
Some numbers from Disney's quarterly report:
- Cable network revenue down 3%
- Cable network operating income down 23%
- ESPN streaming to begin in the first part of 2018, price undetermined
- Buying another 42% of BAMTech to give them 75% control and using platform to build out streaming network
- ESPN currently charges $9.06 per subscriber on average for their major four networks through cable bundles
The Undefeated just finished a fairly large project where they ranked The 50 Greatest Black Athletes of All-Time. They basically polled 10,000 random people and had them rank black athletes on several different categories.
http://theundefeated.com/features/50-greatest-black-athletes/
The Top Five:
1.Michael Jordan
2. Jackie Robinson
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Willie Mays
5. Jesse Owens
About as good as you can get; pretty much perfect imo. No real recency bias, peak collection of all-time greats who also had large social and cultural impacts. Things are looking good.
Next Five:
6. Serena Williams
7. Henry Aaron
8. Simone Biles
9. Gabby Douglas
10. Jerry Rice
So obviously there is some recency bias with the Olympics last summer. If you did this in 1989 Flo-Jo would probably be ranked really high as well. I'm not sure about putting Olympians this high, almost all of them fade away after a while. 50 years from now everyone will be talking about Serena, Rice and Aaron as sporting legends but unless you have an extraordinary cultural impact like Jesse Owens, people probably forget about you. Biles finished sixth in impact on society, which seems crazy high (Ali finished eighth). The other three are also well known for peaking about as long as anyone else ever has in their sports, so it is weird to kind of compare them to gymnasts who peak over what, five years at most.
11-20
11. Magic Johnson
12. Walter Payton
13. Kareem Abdual-Jabbar
14. Usain Bolt
15. Venus Williams
16. Shaquille O'Neal
17. Julius Erving
18. Satchel Paige
19. Emmitt Smith
20. Gale Sayers
I probably wouldn't have Venus that high, but she was the first African-American woman to be ranked World No. 1 and her dominance early in the 2000s is kind of overshadowed by Serena's longer, more-dominant run. Kareem might be the GOAT at basketball and was also very socially conscious, he would be a Top Ten guy for me, probably. I don't know how you can put Gale Sayers and Emmitt Smith ahead of Jim Brown, who a lot of people think is the greatest athlete of all-time, period, not to mention his status as one of the first black athletes to dominate a major sport and his social activism. When I first heard about this list I imagined he would be Top 5, hard to see him not cracking the the top 20.
21-30
21. Wilma Rudolph
22. Pele
23. Joe Louis
24. Sugar Ray Leonard
25. Bo Jackson
26. Wilt Chamberlain
27. Jackie-Joyner Kersee
28. Steph Curry
29. LeBron James
30. Jim Brown
Starts to hit the fan right about here. Pele is obviously hampered by the fact that he wasn't really an American athlete; if we are encompassing the whole globe here he should obviously be higher. He is the only soccer player on the list, so no other black soccer players like Eusebio make the list. Joe Louis likely would be higher on a list with more legitimate voting, culturally he has to be one of the five or so most significant black athletes. Bo has a tremendous mystique about him and he was an all-time great college athlete and his hip injury robbed him of that; but I wouldn't put him over Jim Brown, or Barry Sanders, or Deion Sanders for that matter.
Steph Curry over LeBron? What has Curry done that LeBron hasn't? Appeal more to children? The opening sentence on Steph Curry's mini-bio is insane: "The allure of Stephen Curry is simple: No one predicted he’d be a serviceable player, let alone a two-time MVP, two-time NBA champion and future Hall of Famer. " Wait, nobody predicted Curry would be a serviceable player? When? When he was an infant? There were plenty of people who questioned his ability to transition to his game to the NBA. However, many people, maybe even a majority, figured that Curry could at least be a serviceable NBA player, at the very least his excellent shooting would translate. Sure, few saw him becoming a major star, but come on, nobody thought he would be serviceable? That is how you choose to explain why Curry ranks higher than James?
31-40
31. Michael Johnson
32. Carl Lewis
33. Florence Joyner Griffith
34. Hershel Walker
35. George Foreman
36. Bill Russell
37. Ken Griffey Jr.
38. Arthur Ashe
39. Sugar Ray Robinson
40. Roberto Clemente
Track athletes, and Olympians in general are doing pretty well, which kind of explains the Douglas/Biles Ranking. No Joe Frazier yet, although plenty of any boxers have been named. I really don't know enough about boxing to compare Frazier to Robinson or Frazier to Foreman. Bill Russell this late is a joke. He ranked 38 in dominance, even though he won 11 championships out of 13 seasons played. Clemente being one of the first Latin-American baseball stars as well as being a genuinely inspiring human being may warrant higher consideration. Griffey Jr. is higher than I thought, I think he is still thought of very highly by a big segment of the population (not that they would have any reason not to, but was Griffey better than Frank Robinson or Rickey Henderson.
41-50.
41. Ernie Banks
42. Larry Fitzgerald
43. Reggie Jackson
44. Barry Sanders
45. Joe Frazier
46. David Robinson
47. Derek Jeter
48. Earl Campbell
49. Isiah Thomas
50. Tim Duncan
Interesting grouping. Fitzgerald probably doesn't belong on the list, he has gotten a lot of publicity because he is a great teammate and his lack of top-level counting numbers kind of get excused due to his lack of consistent QB play. I don't think he was much better than contemporaries like Steve Smith or Andre Johnson, let alone Terrell Owens or Randy Moss. David Robinson was a very good player and an even better human being, but I wouldn't rank him over Duncan.
The list also missed some really key figures, like Tiger Woods, Oscar Robertson, Lawrence Taylor (no NFL defensive players at all), Deion Sanders, Jack Johnson and a slew of others. There was also a clear disdain for people with well-known black marks on their resumes, whether that be Tiger Woods, Barry Bonds, or more extremely, OJ.
I know I just spent a ton of time crapping on the list, but it is really interesting and they have a bunch of supplemental articles like on why Bill Russell finished 36th and why Tiger wasn't on the list. The folks at The Undefeated were actually very candid about the process and basically know that it was an extremely flawed study.
http://theundefeated.com/features/50-greatest-black-athletes/
Like any list like this, particularly one that is voted on by the general public, there is going to be some really questionable choices. I understand why they made it a mass public poll, because that is a good way to gauge mass cultural influence rather than having a cast of 25 sportswriters or fellow athletes. They have a lot of other info on the website about how everyone voted, broken down by race, gender, age, income, etc. I think though, most people will read the list and look at it as rather insignificant due to some of the odd oversights.
The Top Five:
1.Michael Jordan
2. Jackie Robinson
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Willie Mays
5. Jesse Owens
About as good as you can get; pretty much perfect imo. No real recency bias, peak collection of all-time greats who also had large social and cultural impacts. Things are looking good.
Next Five:
6. Serena Williams
7. Henry Aaron
8. Simone Biles
9. Gabby Douglas
10. Jerry Rice
So obviously there is some recency bias with the Olympics last summer. If you did this in 1989 Flo-Jo would probably be ranked really high as well. I'm not sure about putting Olympians this high, almost all of them fade away after a while. 50 years from now everyone will be talking about Serena, Rice and Aaron as sporting legends but unless you have an extraordinary cultural impact like Jesse Owens, people probably forget about you. Biles finished sixth in impact on society, which seems crazy high (Ali finished eighth). The other three are also well known for peaking about as long as anyone else ever has in their sports, so it is weird to kind of compare them to gymnasts who peak over what, five years at most.
11-20
11. Magic Johnson
12. Walter Payton
13. Kareem Abdual-Jabbar
14. Usain Bolt
15. Venus Williams
16. Shaquille O'Neal
17. Julius Erving
18. Satchel Paige
19. Emmitt Smith
20. Gale Sayers
I probably wouldn't have Venus that high, but she was the first African-American woman to be ranked World No. 1 and her dominance early in the 2000s is kind of overshadowed by Serena's longer, more-dominant run. Kareem might be the GOAT at basketball and was also very socially conscious, he would be a Top Ten guy for me, probably. I don't know how you can put Gale Sayers and Emmitt Smith ahead of Jim Brown, who a lot of people think is the greatest athlete of all-time, period, not to mention his status as one of the first black athletes to dominate a major sport and his social activism. When I first heard about this list I imagined he would be Top 5, hard to see him not cracking the the top 20.
21-30
21. Wilma Rudolph
22. Pele
23. Joe Louis
24. Sugar Ray Leonard
25. Bo Jackson
26. Wilt Chamberlain
27. Jackie-Joyner Kersee
28. Steph Curry
29. LeBron James
30. Jim Brown
Starts to hit the fan right about here. Pele is obviously hampered by the fact that he wasn't really an American athlete; if we are encompassing the whole globe here he should obviously be higher. He is the only soccer player on the list, so no other black soccer players like Eusebio make the list. Joe Louis likely would be higher on a list with more legitimate voting, culturally he has to be one of the five or so most significant black athletes. Bo has a tremendous mystique about him and he was an all-time great college athlete and his hip injury robbed him of that; but I wouldn't put him over Jim Brown, or Barry Sanders, or Deion Sanders for that matter.
Steph Curry over LeBron? What has Curry done that LeBron hasn't? Appeal more to children? The opening sentence on Steph Curry's mini-bio is insane: "The allure of Stephen Curry is simple: No one predicted he’d be a serviceable player, let alone a two-time MVP, two-time NBA champion and future Hall of Famer. " Wait, nobody predicted Curry would be a serviceable player? When? When he was an infant? There were plenty of people who questioned his ability to transition to his game to the NBA. However, many people, maybe even a majority, figured that Curry could at least be a serviceable NBA player, at the very least his excellent shooting would translate. Sure, few saw him becoming a major star, but come on, nobody thought he would be serviceable? That is how you choose to explain why Curry ranks higher than James?
31-40
31. Michael Johnson
32. Carl Lewis
33. Florence Joyner Griffith
34. Hershel Walker
35. George Foreman
36. Bill Russell
37. Ken Griffey Jr.
38. Arthur Ashe
39. Sugar Ray Robinson
40. Roberto Clemente
Track athletes, and Olympians in general are doing pretty well, which kind of explains the Douglas/Biles Ranking. No Joe Frazier yet, although plenty of any boxers have been named. I really don't know enough about boxing to compare Frazier to Robinson or Frazier to Foreman. Bill Russell this late is a joke. He ranked 38 in dominance, even though he won 11 championships out of 13 seasons played. Clemente being one of the first Latin-American baseball stars as well as being a genuinely inspiring human being may warrant higher consideration. Griffey Jr. is higher than I thought, I think he is still thought of very highly by a big segment of the population (not that they would have any reason not to, but was Griffey better than Frank Robinson or Rickey Henderson.
41-50.
41. Ernie Banks
42. Larry Fitzgerald
43. Reggie Jackson
44. Barry Sanders
45. Joe Frazier
46. David Robinson
47. Derek Jeter
48. Earl Campbell
49. Isiah Thomas
50. Tim Duncan
Interesting grouping. Fitzgerald probably doesn't belong on the list, he has gotten a lot of publicity because he is a great teammate and his lack of top-level counting numbers kind of get excused due to his lack of consistent QB play. I don't think he was much better than contemporaries like Steve Smith or Andre Johnson, let alone Terrell Owens or Randy Moss. David Robinson was a very good player and an even better human being, but I wouldn't rank him over Duncan.
The list also missed some really key figures, like Tiger Woods, Oscar Robertson, Lawrence Taylor (no NFL defensive players at all), Deion Sanders, Jack Johnson and a slew of others. There was also a clear disdain for people with well-known black marks on their resumes, whether that be Tiger Woods, Barry Bonds, or more extremely, OJ.
I know I just spent a ton of time crapping on the list, but it is really interesting and they have a bunch of supplemental articles like on why Bill Russell finished 36th and why Tiger wasn't on the list. The folks at The Undefeated were actually very candid about the process and basically know that it was an extremely flawed study.
The inclusion of non-American athletes seems like a bad idea. OK, Clemente played almost all of his career in the US, I can see excepting that. But Usain Bolt and Pele? Seems like if you're going to have those guys on the list, then people like Yannick Noah, Ruud Gullit*, Eusebio (as mentioned), Chester Williams**, and more need to be mentioned too.
* especially these two, who were huge anti-racism/anti-apartheid activists in Europe in the 80s. Gullit dedicated his European Footballer of the Year award to a still-imprisoned Nelson Mandela
** the one black guy on the 1995 South African rugby team, if you don't remember that 30 for 30.
* especially these two, who were huge anti-racism/anti-apartheid activists in Europe in the 80s. Gullit dedicated his European Footballer of the Year award to a still-imprisoned Nelson Mandela
** the one black guy on the 1995 South African rugby team, if you don't remember that 30 for 30.
I'm still trying to figure out why Roberto Clemente is even on the list. Is Puerto Rican considered black? Leaving Tiger Woods off is an absolute joke.
That's similar to asking if American is considered black. One is a race, one is a region. It is a strange situation, how people see this. I've seen in my gym a Spanish/Taino PR guy talk a lot of bullshit about black guys to a Brazilian guy who is as dark as David Ortiz. I called him on this and he is like no, "Mau Mau is not black like that". To him, it's almost like talking about rednecks to a white person, maybe???
Edit: As for the list? What do you really expect from people voting? Have you been paying attention? Voting sucks. Bill Russell in the 30s LOL
Last edited:
Maybe I haven't properly gauged how his late career collapse has impacted his legacy, but Tiger Woods should be in the top 10 at the very least, maybe even top 5. He was arguably the most important and dominant black athlete of his generation.
Last edited:
I understand the race region thing. I always felt that people from Puerto Rico usually identified as Hispanics
No Tiger Woods means the list fails completely. That's just ridiculous, Tiger should be in the Top 3. Biles and Douglas in the top 10 is literal insanity, ahead of Shaq, Walter Payton and Magic?
But it's an interesting exercise. It's easy to see why OJ is off the list but no Tiger and no Bonds makes it kind of crappy.
But it's an interesting exercise. It's easy to see why OJ is off the list but no Tiger and no Bonds makes it kind of crappy.
Bill Russell at 36 is pretty dumb too. And what about someone like Frank Robinson, Larry Doby or other pioneers like Art Shell or Willie O'Ree?
But no Tiger Wood is completely insane.
Edit: Larry Fitzgerald? Seriously?
But no Tiger Wood is completely insane.
Edit: Larry Fitzgerald? Seriously?
When the Patriots finally trade Ryan Mallet for him you're going to look quite silly.
Grant Fuhr and Jerome Iginla certainly have reasons to be mad too. OH AND LEWIS HAMILTON I CANT BELIEVE I FORGOT ABOUT LEWIS HAMILTON.
It didn't occur to me until I read Art Shell's name that Gene Upshaw has a really great case.
I see a lot of feedback saying that there are just so many names out there, you can't possibly encapsulate them in a list of 50. That is kind of a cop-out though; you don't leave Tiger Woods off the list and put Russell at 36 and Jim Brown at 30 because there are too many names, you do that because too many incompetent people were voting. I'm not quite sure how The Undefeated got all the 10,000 people, but I assume it was advertised to typical ESPN.com readers.
What this list really made me want to see a list of just the 50 or so most impactful athletes list; not just a list broadly indicating who the "best" was, but rather how they impacted their sport and their society as a whole. It is kind of fruitless to compare dominance between a player on a team like Willie Mays, and an individual athlete like Serena or Tiger. A list of athletes who changed the game and the world around them would imo be much more fascinating.
Just don't let random fans vote on it.
Sure, and then Curt Flood moves up.
I can't believe Jim Brown was as low as 30. The list is a total mess.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/08/15/espn_fantasy_football_segment_resembles_slave_auction.html
ESPN had a nifty "auction" sketch.
The League did it better, and pointed out the absurdity of white dudes bidding on black dudes.
ESPN had a nifty "auction" sketch.
The League did it better, and pointed out the absurdity of white dudes bidding on black dudes.
As someone who appreciates irony, I cannot stop laughing about the coincidence a guy named Robert Lee was calling the game in the first place.
How soon do we get a racial discrimination suit? This is absolutely ridiculous. Shame on ESPN for feeding the fucking lunacy in this country. The dude is Asian and has no relation to the Civil War loser. How fucking dumb do you have to be?
It has nothing to do with race, though. More just an odd coincidence of naming conventions that was one root cause of a significant recent event. ESPN says as so much and the anonymous senior ESPN employee implies the same. The blog decides to focus on the Asian part because it's more headline grabbing.
FOX News is still running with this Robert Lee story this morning. It's a perfect topic for them. They get to bash a media competitor, it appeals to their demo who are emotional invested in sports (especially football), they get to complain about how dishonest the media is and they can throw in their entitlement and racial resentment treats to their base.
All this shit which is very funny is way less funny when you realize we live in a simulation and the programmer is a troll.
Thanks. For a minute there, I thought I was watching TV in another dimension
I wonder if Robert Lee goes by Bob in real life, but didn't want to work in media with the same name as Bob Ley, kind of like a Bob Costas/Robert Costa situation.
There should be an upgrade now on the NFL Matchup Show. It is now Louis Riddick, Greg Cosell, and Sal Pal. Riddick and Cosell replace Jaws and Merrill Hoge.
Having just been out there this summer - that altitude is no joke in Jackson Hole if you'e not used to it. It at least doubled the impact of drinks for me the first two days until I acclimated. Wouldn't be surprised if that contributed to it.
Jemele Hill went on a twitter rampage last night about Trump. Not that anything she really said was wrong for the most part as I agree he's a racist but to put it out there on 9/11 was kind of par for the course. Could have done without calling all republicans racists too as some are just misguided that need to understand the error of their ways.
Kirk and Callahan were all over this story this morning, saying what she said violated the ESPN rules as much as Schilling did and she should be fired, too.