Eastern and Western Conference Finals

NYCSox

chris hansen of goats
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Exactly right cshea. I mean we weren't thrilled about losing Colin Miller but a team of 20 Colin Miller types doesn't sniff the playoffs.
 

timlinin8th

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Jun 6, 2009
1,521
Exactly right cshea. I mean we weren't thrilled about losing Colin Miller but a team of 20 Colin Miller types doesn't sniff the playoffs.
A lot of people lamented losing Colin Miller, but given how things turned out for the teams that played the jump-through-hoops game to try and keep certain players, I’m pretty glad the Bruins just chalked up that Miller was going to be a loss and moved on from it, rather than doing the dance and giving up more assets and looking like idiots in the end.
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
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Oct 31, 2013
72,567
Teams got to protect significantly fewer players than in the previous expansion (Minn/CBJ), creating the situation where the GM's panicked. Not fair to the fans. But the owners are the culprit of course, that's a fair point.

Florida was dumb, granted. CBJ probably even dumber.
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Cshea with a great post as always
 
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kenneycb

Hates Goose Island Beer; Loves Backdoor Play
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Dec 2, 2006
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Tuukka's refugee camp
Teams got to protect significantly fewer players than in the previous expansion (Minn/CBJ), creating the situation where the GM's panicked. Not fair to the fans. But the owners are the culprit of course, that's a fair point.

Florida was dumb, granted. CBJ probably even dumber.
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Cshea with a great post as always
It’s also not fair or smart business to have a team suck for the first 5-10 years of its existence l, especially when it is trying to build up a fan base, doubly so in a non-traditional market. No teams should have been gutted or significantly impacted by this process. If they were, that’s just poor GMing.
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
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Oct 31, 2013
72,567
It’s also not fair or smart business to have a team suck for the first 5-10 years of its existence l, especially when it is trying to build up a fan base, doubly so in a non-traditional market. No teams should have been gutted or significantly impacted by this process. If they were, that’s just poor GMing.
Why not? They should experience failure before they experience success. It is healthier for long term success. They'll end up being spoiled.
 

kenneycb

Hates Goose Island Beer; Loves Backdoor Play
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Why not? They should experience failure before they experience success. It is healthier for long term success. They'll end up being spoiled.
Who gives a shit? That argument is like the old one that a freshman can’t win the Heisman because he’s a freshman. The strategy worked quite well for Atlanta, Nashville, and Columbus. One moved, one was sold, and the other still hasn’t gotten out of the first round. What about taking 10-15 years to achieve stability is good for the team, the fans, or the league?

Edit: Listening to the crowd lose its shit right now. This story cannot be anything but objectively good news for the NHL.
 

allstonite

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Oct 27, 2010
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Who gives a shit? That argument is like the old one that a freshman can’t win the Heisman because he’s a freshman. The strategy worked quite well for Atlanta, Nashville, and Columbus. One moved, one was sold, and the other still hasn’t gotten out of the first round. What about taking 10-15 years to achieve stability is good for the team, the fans, or the league?

Edit: Listening to the crowd lose its shit right now. This story cannot be anything but objectively good news for the NHL.
Seriously. I can't believe people are bothered by this. It's a great story. It's fun. Sports are fun.
 

cshea

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Why not? They should experience failure before they experience success. It is healthier for long term success. They'll end up being spoiled.
Yes, let’s have them suck and turn into another Arizona. That’ll be great!

Nothing but good can come of VGK success.
 

Salem's Lot

Andy Moog! Andy God Damn Moog!
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Jul 15, 2005
14,466
Gallows Hill
Yes, let’s have them suck and turn into another Arizona. That’ll be great!

Nothing but good can come of VGK success.
It's funny, there is a segment of the sports fan population that can never embrace a team that wasn't around before they started watching sports. They degrade them as "expansion teams" even if they've been in the league for 30 years. I have several family members and acquaintances that think this way and I never got it.
 

NYCSox

chris hansen of goats
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I can see fans of recent expansion teams that didn't get a good expansion deal or teams with glorious pasts that have been down on their luck for the past quarter to half century (Leafs, Habs, Oilers) or perennial contenders that haven't gotten over the hump (Sharks, Caps, Preds) being annoyed by Vegas winning.
 

Vegas Sox Fan

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The Dirty Desert
I can see fans of recent expansion teams that didn't get a good expansion deal or teams with glorious pasts that have been down on their luck for the past quarter to half century (Leafs, Habs, Oilers) or perennial contenders that haven't gotten over the hump (Sharks, Caps, Preds) being annoyed by Vegas winning.
I went to San Jose for game 4 last series. They got some real salty fans up there.
 

kenneycb

Hates Goose Island Beer; Loves Backdoor Play
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Dec 2, 2006
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I can see fans of recent expansion teams that didn't get a good expansion deal or teams with glorious pasts that have been down on their luck for the past quarter to half century (Leafs, Habs, Oilers) or perennial contenders that haven't gotten over the hump (Sharks, Caps, Preds) being annoyed by Vegas winning.
Why should anybody care about how they feel? The loss of these absurdly petty fans, because that is what this is, would be significantly outweighed by the gain of new Vegas fans, which occurs because they don't have to watch a top line of Geoff Sanderson, Epsen Knutsen, and Steve Heinze while Lyle Odelein is your 1D and career backups Ron Tugnutt and Marc Denis man the pipes in the first year of existence.
 

NYCSox

chris hansen of goats
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May 19, 2004
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Why should anybody care about how they feel? The loss of these absurdly petty fans, because that is what this is, would be significantly outweighed by the gain of new Vegas fans, which occurs because they don't have to watch a top line of Geoff Sanderson, Epsen Knutsen, and Steve Heinze while Lyle Odelein is your 1D and career backups Ron Tugnutt and Marc Denis man the pipes in the first year of existence.
Oh I don't necessarily care about their feelings (especially Habs fans of course!) - just pointing out human nature
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
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Oct 31, 2013
72,567
I can see fans of recent expansion teams that didn't get a good expansion deal or teams with glorious pasts that have been down on their luck for the past quarter to half century (Leafs, Habs, Oilers) or perennial contenders that haven't gotten over the hump (Sharks, Caps, Preds) being annoyed by Vegas winning.
If I'm a MN pro hockey fan, Id be pissed.

First your team leaves (for a non-traditional hockey city) then they win the Cup on a controversial goal. You get a new team, they can't get over the hump, and then a new team, in another non-hockey city arrives and they get a much better expansion draft deal.

If you're a Bruins, Rangers, Blackhawks fan, obviously nothing to complain about. (F the Habs/Leafs/Canucks/Oilers)


VGK being competitive is good, i'm not arguing that, just too good too fast, at the expense of fairness.
 

TSC

SoSH's Doug Neidermeyer
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Oct 25, 2007
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VGK being competitive is good, i'm not arguing that, just too good too fast, at the expense of fairness.
No matter how you frame it, it’s still stupid.

Hell. If leagues were serious about expansion they would go even further to make new teams be competitive immediately. Build a strong and loyal fanbase early, create rivalries early, get people invested in the team early.

People are only willing to cheer for a loser if they’re emotionally invested in them. You think people would willingly be Rex Sox fans pre-04, or Jets fans, or Leafs fans if there wasn’t some emotional attachment there (which is normally created either through success, or because it’s who your parents cheered for - which isn’t possible for expansion)?

I want Vegas to win the Cup this year. It’s a good story, they’re a fun team, and it’s good for the NHL.
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
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Oct 31, 2013
72,567
The Wild paid $80 million. The Knights paid $500 million.

They have had 18 years to figure it out.
Right but the hockey game expanded, the ticketing revenue expanded, and general inflation, and therefore you can't compare the fees. But we still play with 18 skaters and 2 goalies, and the Wild had a smaller expansion draft of players.
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
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Oct 31, 2013
72,567
People are only willing to cheer for a loser if they’re emotionally invested in them. You think people would willingly be Rex Sox fans pre-04, or Jets fans, or Leafs fans if there wasn’t some emotional attachment there (which is normally created either through success, or because it’s who your parents cheered for - which isn’t possible for expansion)?

I want Vegas to win the Cup this year. It’s a good story, they’re a fun team, and it’s good for the NHL.
They live in the city. They should be emotionally invested because of that. My parents knew absolutely nothing about baseball or football when I became a Red Sox and Patriots fan, and the success (or lack thereof) at that time (no playoff appearances in 7 years) of either team wasn't a factor to me becoming a fan.

The fandom should grow organically and sustainably.

VGK's early success is just going to make people there spoiled. Fortunately, for that franchise, the city 1) is a large tourist destination and 2) is growing at a large clip and has room to grow geographically.
 

cshea

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I’m not sure why the fans need to earn some “we survived X amount of shitty seasons!!!” badge of honor before the team can win. Or this idea that they will be spoiled.

The best way to keep fans coming back is a winning and entertaining product. Check and check. The novelty of having a new team wears off quick, being shitty won’t keep fans coming.
 

kenneycb

Hates Goose Island Beer; Loves Backdoor Play
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Dec 2, 2006
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That's a load of shit. Fans are fickle and are more likely to go to games when teams are good and less likely to go when teams are bad. Not everyone is as good a sports fan as you. Exhibits A-D: The Red Sox, Bruins, Patriots, and Celtics when they have all sucked relatively recently. Plopping a team down in a city doesn't create emotional attachment except in some romantic way people write about that is separated from reality.

Edit: To Ale, not cshea
 

54thMA

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Aug 15, 2012
10,154
Westwood MA
If I'm a MN pro hockey fan, Id be pissed.

First your team leaves (for a non-traditional hockey city) then they win the Cup on a controversial goal. You get a new team, they can't get over the hump.....................
Different sport, but Cleveland Browns fans say hello.

The No Stars were cursed; never made it to the SC finals in their history, they merged with the Cleveland Barons and still stunk, then as you said move to that hockey hotbed in Dallas and win a cup.

Sports can be cruel sometimes.
 

Dummy Hoy

Angry Pissbum
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Jul 22, 2006
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North Stars lost to Mario and the Penguins in 91.

Edit: Quick double check of that shows they lost in 81 too.

But your greater point remains true.
 

kenneycb

Hates Goose Island Beer; Loves Backdoor Play
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Dec 2, 2006
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They made it to the Cup Finals once in 1991. Probably most remembered for Mario's dangle of two Stars (later memorialized into his statue) and the chirping of Bellows.

 

54thMA

Member
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Aug 15, 2012
10,154
Westwood MA
North Stars lost to Mario and the Penguins in 91.

Edit: Quick double check of that shows they lost in 81 too.

But your greater point remains true.
Thanks, should have checked my facts first. How could I have forgotten the Bruins passed on Brian Bellows for Gord Kluzak and he pumped life into the No Stars.

The No Stars did have great uniforms though, yellow/gold and green with the N on the front of the sweater with the star at the top of the N, so they had that going for them, which is nice.
 

Red Right Ankle

Formerly the Story of Your Red Right Ankle
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Jul 2, 2006
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Why should anybody care about how they feel? The loss of these absurdly petty fans, because that is what this is, would be significantly outweighed by the gain of new Vegas fans, which occurs because they don't have to watch a top line of Geoff Sanderson, Epsen Knutsen, and Steve Heinze while Lyle Odelein is your 1D and career backups Ron Tugnutt and Marc Denis man the pipes in the first year of existence.
Speaking ill of Steve Heinze immediately invalidates your opinions.
 

Red Right Ankle

Formerly the Story of Your Red Right Ankle
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Whose name is funnier: Espen Knutsen or Ron Tugnutt? Tugnutt is obviously funnier on first read, but I feel like Espenknutsen, which sounds like some form of Scandinavian pastry or obscure disease, has layers to it to be mined.
 

Red Right Ankle

Formerly the Story of Your Red Right Ankle
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Jul 2, 2006
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FYI all, I am stuck in the Milwaukee airport, so I am probably just going to randomly post with no reference to the actual game for the next 3 hours.