#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


  • Total voters
    208

bankshot1

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 12, 2003
24,760
where I was last at
Yeah, well, you'll be disappointed to know the amount of time that has passed is almost certainly bad news for Brady. My light research indicates that it is very common for the Second Circuit to deny rehearing right around the two month mark, without having ordered a response.

Every circuit has internal operating procedures or general orders that outline the timing on calling for an en banc poll and voting; unfortunately, the Second Circuit doesn't make its timing procedures public, and we've yet to have a former clerk chime in (I don't have any in my office, and am not going to send around an RFI), which is why we're mostly in the dark on timing. But generally the way it works is that there are X amount of days after the filing of the petition where one of the judges can call for a vote; if nobody calls for a vote within that period, the petition is denied. Some circuits (like the Ninth) have a procedure where, within that period, an off-panel judge can put the question to the panel, and this extends the time until the panel tells the rest of the court its views. The Ninth Circuit also has one (per court) 14-day "time out" that can be used. If a judge DOES call for a vote within the allotted time, every circuit of which I'm aware immediately orders a response. Then, after the response is in, another clock starts. If a majority of eligible voting judges don't vote to rehear within the deadline, the petition is denied.

So, at this point, I'm quite certain nobody has called for a vote, and even if the Second's voting period is 60 days (and those I'm aware of are in the 14-21 day range), there's no good reason for a judge to wait until the last moment if he intends to call for a poll. I think the best possible scenario for Brady is that the Second Circuit has a procedure similar to the Ninth's and has put the question back to the panel, and the panel is discussing, or even amending the opinion. (Or even if, since Brady filed a petition for panel rehearing and rehearing en banc, the panel has the initial opportunity to consider it, and is exercising its authority.)

But it seems (based on the timing of denials I've seen) likely that the Second just has around a 60 day period for calling for a vote (it may be 21 days for the panel, then another 30 for the full court, or 30+30, or 21+21, I don't know), and we are just waiting for it to wind down.

WBV-Thanks for addressing my question re the en banc process.

I find it interesting that in a profession that demands strict adherence to the correct proecdures, where not only must every i be dotted and t crossed, but it also must be submitted in the proper font size and the properly tinted paper, that there is no hard and fast process in determining whether a case wil be heard.

I also find it it interesting with all that has been written in newspapers, blogs etc. regarding the legal angles re DFG, the actual procedures of what could be the final legal stage have been largely skipped/ignored by all those experts.

Again thank you for shining some light for a curious legal layman.
 

soxhop411

news aggravator
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2009
46,472
The #DeflateGate saga continues to percolate in the court system, and it continues to influence the rule book.

Rule 2, Section 2 quietly has been revised to alter the pregame procedures regarding the submission of footballs for PSI testing. Previously, each team was required to make 12 balls available for pregame testing two hours and 15 minutes before kickoff. The home team also was required to make 12 backup balls available for testing in all stadiums, and the visiting teams was permitted to bring 12 balls for pregame testing at game played in outdoor stadiums only.

As revised, Rule 2, Section 2 now requires all teams in all games to give 12 primary balls and 12 backup balls to the referee no later than 2 hours and 30 minutes before kickoff.

It’s unclear why the change was made. It’s possibly a byproduct of random in-game PSI checks, which take the primary balls out of service and require teams to use their backup balls. For indoor games or outdoor games at which the visiting team didn’t choose to bring 12 backup balls, the 12 backup balls brought by the home team become the only balls used, by both teams, for the rest of the game.

None of this changes the fact that the NFL has opted to conceal all information generated last year regarding the process of randomly checking PSI, other than to declare that no violations were found. The league surely has opted to tiptoe around these details because full transparency would result in an admission that, yes, football were used (and routinely are used) with PSI levels below 12.5, given the operation of the Ideal Gas Law.

There’s also a chance that the numbers measured at games played in particularly cold conditions showed PSI numbers even lower than those measured in the New England footballs from the playoff game that pushed this issue into the public consciousness

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/07/10/all-teams-must-now-give-24-balls-to-the-referee-for-pregame-testing/
 

djbayko

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
25,948
Los Angeles, CA
The reason for the change in the rule is obvious. The refs told the league that if they are going to have to carefully calibrate gauges, measure and correct ball pressure, and record results, they are going to need extra time because they didn't do shit before.

(And the backup balls are required due to the new ball handling procedure which calls for balls to be removed at halftime if there's an irregularity in the random testing.)
 
Last edited:

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,671
Anyone who has watched the video Peter King made a few years ago of the ball testing procedures before games HAS to find the notion that a football being off a few tenths of a psi is a criminal and dastardly and awful thing and a threat to the integrity of the game....To be just patently absurd.

The refs stuck needles in, glanced at the gauge, squeezed the balls, and moved on. There was NOTHING remotely scientific or precise about the process.
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
14,037
Richmond, VA
Under what conditions? Using what gauge? To within what tolerance? etc....
Doesn't matter all that much, as long as they are clear what the procedure is, and consistent with implementing it.

I'm an advocate of testing the balls on the field of play shortly before game time (an hour or so), with 'some sort of accepted gauge) and have a rep from each team there. Either pick one number (+/- some variance) or allow the team rep specify a target within an agreed psi range. Then just live with it from there.
 

Bleedred

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 21, 2001
10,018
Boston, MA
In the history of professional sports, has there ever been a more egregious and colossal waste of time, money and angst spent on a faux scandal than on Goodellgate (and I'm 100% guilty of wasting time and angst on it)?
 

ifmanis5

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2007
63,942
Rotten Apple
In the history of professional sports, has there ever been a more egregious and colossal waste of time, money and angst spent on a faux scandal than on Goodellgate (and I'm 100% guilty of wasting time and angst on it)?
It hasn't all been a waste of time. Roger and the owners finally got tough with the Pats and showed them they mean business.
 

Bergs

funky and cold
SoSH Member
Jul 22, 2005
21,695
The 2016 All-Star game just ended. And this is still unresolved. Amazing.
 

pedro1918

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
5,162
Map Ref. 41°N 93°W
Not sure he is referring to "our court system". If the NFL weren't a bunch of ignorant, arrogant, lying, deceitful crybabies this so called incident would never have been put in front of "our court system".

This is 100% the fault of the NFL.
 
Last edited:

BigJimEd

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
4,441
I also find it it interesting with all that has been written in newspapers, blogs etc. regarding the legal angles re DFG, the actual procedures of what could be the final legal stage have been largely skipped/ignored by all those experts.

Again thank you forshining some light for a curious legal layman.
Yeah, I haven't seen much on the process at all. Granted I haven't bothered reading much of the main stream media on this topic so I may have missed it.

If it is similar to what WBV describes than it doesn't look good for Brady's case.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,671
Melrose, MA
Well, then, it is official. NFLPA F'd themselves and Brady by waiting until they had already lost before brining in the heavy artillery (Olson).
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,375
New York City
Well, then, it is official. NFLPA F'd themselves and Brady by waiting until they had already lost before brining in the heavy artillery (Olson).
It's impossible to say; the lawyers on the board that olson probably would have done a better job at the circuit court but who knows if it would have been enough. It was an uphill battle from the time Goodell issued his ruling and it's frankly remarkable that Kessler got the result he did from the district court.
 

TheoShmeo

Skrub's sympathy case
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
12,890
Boston, NY
I admit it, I still care quite a bit. Brady has been wronged and the Pats will be at a disadvantage if he cannot play in the first four games. No amount of fatigue changes either of those things.

I know it's buried up thread but views on Brady's chances re Cert and in general on next steps would be greatly appreciated.
 

scotian1

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
16,381
Kingston, Nova Scotia
There isn't a great deal of justice in the justice system. Procedure and argument are more important than facts and truth. And it works both ways, just ask the family of Nicole Simpson.
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
34,605
SAS is a mere reed blowing in the wind. Jimy's old comment about Georgie Porgie applies here.
 

Norm loves Vera

Joe wants Trump to burn
SoSH Member
Dec 25, 2003
5,462
Peace Dale, RI
Kravitz has been waiting for a long time to create today's piece on DFG. Here is the opening salvo, and it goes predictably down hill from there :

"If only Tom Brady and the Patriots had reacted this way:

"We prefer our footballs on the low end of the PSI scale, especially on a rainy night. If, in fact, the footballs came in a bit lower than Ideal Gas Law might dictate, we apologize for the oversight, but were not attempting to cheat the game or the Indianapolis Colts.’’

And that would have been it."

He closes with:
"If it all ends here, if it all ends now, let this much be said: Justice has been served. Finally. "

http://www.wthr.com/story/32437898/kravitz-finally-thankfully-justice-is-served-in-the-protracted-deflategate-case
 

troparra

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 3, 2007
1,921
Michigan
I don't understand how these people, like Kravitz or Stephen A., can be so wrong when they are actually paid to know what's going on.
 

wilked

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 17, 2005
4,063
You usually don't see it phrased "supreme court has better things to do than rule on complex and overreaching arbitration cases"
 

lars10

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
11,739
Sadly, in 2016 sports "journalists" aren't paid to know what's going on anymore.
I think if anything they're paid to be blissfully unaware so that their latest hot take comes out unfettered by facts.
 
Last edited:

koufax32

He'll cry if he wants to...
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2006
9,106
Duval
"But if the NFL's science really was junk the circumstantial evidence was not."
-from ESPN's article on DFG's impact on Brady's legacy

That sentence right there explains everything you need to know about what is wrong with the whole thing. Read it again and again and know that a very large number of Americans agree with it. Read it and know where America stands in a comparison of test scores and education as a whole. This sentence makes it more depressing to be an American school teacher than it is to be a Patriots fan.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,671
"But if the NFL's science really was junk the circumstantial evidence was not."
-from ESPN's article on DFG's impact on Brady's legacy

That sentence right there explains everything you need to know about what is wrong with the whole thing. Read it again and again and know that a very large number of Americans agree with it. Read it and know where America stands in a comparison of test scores and education as a whole. This sentence makes it more depressing to be an American school teacher than it is to be a Patriots fan.
That should read: "But if the science demonstrates that nothing besides the natural laws of physics impacted the air pressure in the footballs - like it does in every other cold weather game - the text between Jastremski and McNally that used the term 'deflator' is proof that Brady was orchestrating a nefarious scheme to violate the integrity of the game."

Conclusion: Most people are catastrophically stupid.
 

Leather

given himself a skunk spot
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
28,451
"But if the direct evidence that the suspect committed the crime is junk, his lack of remorse is not!"
 

pappymojo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 28, 2010
6,680
But even though the NFL's science really was undeniably junk the circumstantial evidence that ESPN elected to report painted the picture that the NFL was just.
 

mwonow

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 4, 2005
7,124
"His brain was boiling, his reason was spent,
He said if nothing is borrowed, nothing is lent
I asked him for mercy, he gave me a gun
He said now and again these things just got to be done"

Hunter/Weir had it nailed in the 70s.

Ironically, that song is called "Greatest Story Ever Told," which is about as far from #DFG as is possible...
 

Leather

given himself a skunk spot
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
28,451
There's a commish on the road...
His brain is inflatin' like a toad.

Those were the original lyrics. Weird, right?
 

Gorton Fisherman

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
May 26, 2002
2,485
Port Orange, FL
One of my take-aways from this whole story: Denny Chin needs to be added to the all-time Boston sports lead pipe list. If I had to name one person who truly fucked us over in this entire affair (outside of the obvious cadre of bozos in the NFL front office), it's Chin. It still staggering to me that someone who is accomplished enough to become a federal appellate court judge could be so utterly fucking clueless about the basic facts of this case. I mean, it's like he wasn't actually paying attention. GJGE, asshole.