Cyrus the Not-so-Great

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

I didn't realize Cyrus played so many defensive snaps last night. I thought he came in when Butler momentarily left hurt and immediately got burned with the long reception.

I feel a bit better about him knowing he's playing defensive snaps (and not getting noticed outside the 1 bad play), but agree that he needs to stay out of the return game at least until next year.

 

[lexrageorge]

Not to derail the thread, but this is bull, and this reaction has been gnawing at me ever since. Imagine the reverse scenario: Denver leading by 14 on the road against the Pats and they muff a punt in the fourth quarter, leading to a Pats TD. Then Denver folds like a cheap suit and allows a back up QB (Jimmy G) to play the quarter and OT of his life while the Denver O cannot get anything going. A total breakdown and a huge gut punch loss for the Ponies, effectively derailing their season.

What is our reaction? Ha ha, poorly coached mentally weak team! A BB-coached team would NEVER let one muffed punt cause the team to go off the rails like that. Kubiak is a moron!! Losers!

In sum: the Harper screw up should NOT have caused a total meltdown for the rest of that game.

Rant over.

And the Harper screw up had nothing to do with the Pats outright blowing 3 winnable games against bad teams in December. Plays like Harper's muffed punt happen to the best coached teams. But the implication in SJH's rant is that the Harper play prevented the Pats from making the Super Bowl, which is total bullshit. Championship teams don't lose *all* 3 of those late season games; win one of those and Harper's muff is just a footnote.

 

[genoasalami]

4th round football talent. Undrafted free agent intelligence.

 

[lexrageorge]

Its one thing to fumble it during your return or fumble it as you try to catch it, those are mistakes that practice can correct. But running near a ball when you should be running away has to be one of the worst mental mistakes I have seen in some time. If they could IR him for mental incapacity that would really be best for him and the team, then next year we could start fresh.

I would like to see them have Amendola or Edelman receive all punts and be told to strictly fair catch or clear out and never return one to avoid injury. I wish we could IR Jones somehow, but even if it costs us depth in another area of the team what would be best is to keep him on the inactive the rest of the way.

Actually, that would be almost as bad as cutting him. It's been noted multiple times in this thread that he played 48 snaps last night, which means he's played himself into the defensive rotation. Deliberately sacrificing depth at key position like CB just to prove a point is monumentally stupid.

If they need to make him inactive for a game, they have plenty of roster space to do just that.

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

The entire he might ruin the season boogie man is absurd. He didn't even ruin last night's game and that was 100% the worst muff'd punt I have ever seen in my life and let Baltimore right back in the game.

 

[wutang112878]

Actually, that would be almost as bad as cutting him. It's been noted multiple times in this thread that he played 48 snaps last night, which means he's played himself into the defensive rotation. Deliberately sacrificing depth at key position like CB just to prove a point is monumentally stupid.

If they need to make him inactive for a game, they have plenty of roster space to do just that.

I'm not suggesting they do it to prove a point, I think mentally he is so troubled right now that he is genuinely a liability on the field. I certainly dont think they can allow him to return a kick or punt again, so it results in a balancing act where now we are putting WRs in the position to return punts where our depth is probably worse than the secondary right now.

 

[singaporesoxfan]

Its one thing to fumble it during your return or fumble it as you try to catch it, those are mistakes that practice can correct. But running near a ball when you should be running away has to be one of the worst mental mistakes I have seen in some time. If they could IR him for mental incapacity that would really be best for him and the team, then next year we could start fresh.

I would like to see them have Amendola or Edelman receive all punts and be told to strictly fair catch or clear out and never return one to avoid injury. I wish we could IR Jones somehow, but even if it costs us depth in another area of the team what would be best is to keep him on the inactive the rest of the way.

Who would take all his snaps at CB? 48 snaps is pretty valuable, even if one of them resulted in a long completion.

 

[lexrageorge]

I'm not suggesting they do it to prove a point, I think mentally he is so troubled right now that he is genuinely a liability on the field. I certainly dont think they can allow him to return a kick or punt again, so it results in a balancing act where now we are putting WRs in the position to return punts where our depth is probably worse than the secondary right now.

Putting him on IR doesn't solve the problem of finding someone to return punts. And it's not clear he's a liability on defense; again, it appears he played a competent nickel DB last night.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I think it's easy to underestimate how dramatically advanced the punting game in the NFL is from college. The Patriots faced two of the best punting teams in football the last two weeks, and Koch in particular is a really sophisticated punter. I'm actually not sure it's possible to simulate Koch and Hekker, and their schemes, in practice. This is a very hard skill on a play that in the last ten years has become way more complex and competitive than it was. The Patriots have no great return options but suggesting Jones is stupid or that he should be cut because his instincts haven't caught up with the complexity of what the team is asking him to do is very premature.

 

[Sox and Rocks]

During last night's Cowboys-Giants game, Cris Collinsworth wondered aloud whether teams would be better off fair catching all punts, due to the prevalence of penalties and turnovers. I'm not sure if that's a good strategy for NFL teams generally, but it's a good one for the Pats right now -- send Edelman back there with instructions to take the fair catch unless he's reasonably sure he can get 15+ yards on the return.

Not to mention all the times the ball hits the ground from not being fair caught and rolls another 10-20 yards.

Edelman fair catching every punt for the rest of the season seems like a valid strategy at this point. Hell, put two guys back there just to ensure all punts are caught.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

 

[Carmine Hose]

For Bama last year, he had 42 punt returns for 530 yards (12.6 average) and 4 TDs. The punts fielded, yards, and TDs all led the NCAA (not Christian McCaffrey). The rest of the team only fielded 5 total punts. That's what they saw.

I think at this point, his first mistake got in his head, since he hadn't had anything but success returning punts. And its steamrolled. It's up to him to see if he has the requisite BB mental toughness to reverse course.

He had a part as a child dealer in The Wire, so at least there's that.

 

[DJnVa]

So, was that his first return last night? I had most the game muted, but I don't recall if he was out there earlier.

Is it possible with a 13 point lead, that BB felt it was a situation he could handle?

 

[DJnVa]

He had a part as a child dealer in The Wire, so at least there's that.

Wait, what?

I hate when I can't tell if there's sarcasm. Someone Roethlisberger this for me.

 

[Reggie's Racquet]

They were up three scores against a team they looked clearly better than. The worst case scenario did happen and they still won the game. If you support not cutting him then I think it's fair to support using him in the second half up three scores against bad teams. He's obviously showing a lot in practice.

There were times when everyone lost faith in Devin McCourty and especially Patrick Chung when they were younger. Maybe Cyrus never turns it around but it's way too early to panic.

I don't support cutting him for now. But he should not have been used on punt returns in the second half.
Did you see the punt just before the one he touched and fumbled?
He got dangerously close to that one.
Why run him out there after he almost made a mistake... so he can really make a mistake?
Bill and the staff should know better.

 

[gammoseditor]

I don't support cutting him for now. But he should not have been used on punt returns in the second half.
Did you see the punt just before the one he touched and fumbled?
He got dangerously close to that one.
Why run him out there after he almost made a mistake... so he can really make a mistake?
Bill and the staff should know better.

The worst case scenario happened, and they were up 13 and getting the ball back. Then they fumbled the kickoff, gave up another touchdown, and were still up 6. And they still won the game by 7 and had the ball at the end where they would have had a chance to score if they needed to.

The odds of Cyrus Jones fucking up that bad AND costing them the game were astronomically small. I'd argue the odds of Edelman getting hurt returning a punt up 3 scores were much higher.

 

[normstalls]

I'm I wrong or was it Jones who made the nice play on the punted ball to keep it out of the end zone....leading to the safety.

(Looking for any possible positives with the kid)

 

[Two Youks]

I'm I wrong or was it Jones who made the nice play on the punted ball to keep it out of the end zone....leading to the safety.

(Looking for any possible positives with the kid)

That was the other Jones, Jonathan.

 

[normstalls]

That was the other Jones, Jonathan.

Ah, ok. Thanks.

 

[Reggie's Racquet]

Devin Hester is now a free agent per ESPN.

 

[pokey_reese]

I'm no dope, but this punt return value question seems interesting and worthy of its own thread, aside from Cyrus.

 

[Dogman]

I moved some posts. I mostly want JMOH to see my doing so instead of updating the ghost thread.

 

[PayrodsFirstClutchHit]

Wait, what?

I hate when I can't tell if there's sarcasm. Someone Roethlisberger this for me.

From his wikipedia page.

At the age of 9 he had a bit part in The Wire as a child drug dealer.

The link below was the reference.

http://www.patriots.com/video/2016/11/19/totally-patriots-1119-thanksgiving-edition

 

[Bergs]

From his wikipedia page.

At the age of 9 he had a bit part in The Wire as a child drug dealer.

The link below was the reference.

http://www.patriots.com/video/2016/11/19/totally-patriots-1119-thanksgiving-edition

I totally thought that was some weird joke. Guess I dropped the ball there.

 

[ifmanis5]

I moved some posts. I mostly want JMOH to see my doing so instead of updating the ghost thread.

YOU HAD ONE JOB! BOOOO!

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Devin Hester is now a free agent per ESPN.

He has the same number of fumbles and fumbles lost as Cyrus Jones this year.

Pass.

 

[Ed Hillel]

I totally thought that was some weird joke. Guess I dropped the ball there.

Nice.

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

For the record, there's a big difference between having a problem mentally - uh oh, now it's in his head - and being "stupid." From what I hear, Cyrus Jones is decidedly not "stupid." I don't want him back there frantically playing dodge ball with punts until pre-season 2017, but I'm not sure what good it does, beyond enjoying the release of anger, to call the kid stupid.

I feel bad for the guy and I hope he manages to un Knoblauch himself, and fast.

 

[Reggie's Racquet]

He has the same number of fumbles and fumbles lost as Cyrus Jones this year.

Pass.

Yes but Devin Hester (who may go to the Hall of Fame as a kick returner) has proven that he can do the job over many years and in difficult weather conditions (Chicago). With several cold weather games coming up on the schedule in Denver and NE that might be something to consider. I guess we'll see what Bill thinks soon.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Yes but Devin Hester (who may go to the Hall of Fame as a kick returner) has proven that he can do the job over many years and in difficult weather conditions (Chicago). With several cold weather games coming up on the schedule in Denver and NE that might be something to consider. I guess we'll see what Bill thinks soon.

The hive mind over on the NFL reddit is almost unanimous in declaring Hester to have been terrible this season. He's apparently let a large number of punts fall to be downed inside the 10. He's done.

 

[Reggie's Racquet]

The hive mind over on the NFL reddit is almost unanimous in declaring Hester to have been terrible this season. He's apparently let a large number of punts fall to be downed inside the 10. He's done.

Resistence is futile.

 

[joe dokes]

The hive mind over on the NFL reddit is almost unanimous in declaring Hester to have been terrible this season. He's apparently let a large number of punts fall to be downed inside the 10. He's done.

Based on the sample size of 1 game, Hester seemed unwilling/unable to field at least 2 punts. So if all BB is looking for is someone who can get out of the way better than Jones, Hester might be the guy.

 

[dbn]

Okay, now I need to know what episode of The Wire he was in. My Googling is failing.

 

[ifmanis5]

For those wondering what his college fumble stats were:

As a freshman at Alabama, Jones committed three fumbles on 18 returns (kickoff and punt). During his junior and senior seasons, he committed three fumbles on 53 returns. He lost only two of his six fumbles in college.

http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2016/11/new_england_patriots_cb_cyrus.html

I don't think he's a lost cause yet but he should not be returning in important games rest of this year.

 

[cutman1000]

He's going to have the ultimate redemption story during the Super Bowl. Pats will fall benind 7-3 to the Cowboys late in the first quarter, then Cyrus will run the ensuing kickoff back for a TD. The Pats will never look back and go on to win 38-24.

 

[soxhop411]

Cyrus Jones: 'I reached a point where I didn't even want to play’

ESPN has a recap of an interview Cyrus had with the Baltimore Sun

FOXBOROUGH, Mass. -- New England Patriots cornerback Cyrus Jones, the team's top draft choice from 2016 who endured a challenging rookie season, shared some thoughts this week with the Baltimore Sun during a community appearance last week in his native Maryland at Leith Walk Elementary/Middle School.

"I'll never take credit for something I don't feel I contributed to," Jones told the Sun. "I was part of the team, but I didn't feel a part of it. ...

"I honestly felt cursed. I reached a point where I didn't even want to play. I just didn't have it."

Jones was inactive for five of the team's final six games, including Super Bowl LI. He had ball-security struggles as a returner, as well as some issues with judgment.

Jones acknowledged that he's heard criticism from the media and it stings, and while he appreciated the support of teammates, he sounded like he didn't think he deserved it.

"What I did this year was not me," he told the Sun. "I don't care how anybody tries to sugarcoat it. Yes, I was a rookie. But I feel I should always be one of the best players on the field, no matter where I am."

As for Super Bowl LI, Jones was happy for his teammates, but at the same time told the Sun: "Honestly, it was hell for me. That's the only way I can describe it. I didn't feel I deserved to be part of anything that was happening with the team. I felt embarrassed that these people probably thought they wasted a pick on me."

http://www.espn.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4801238/cyrus-jones-i-reached-a-point-where-i-didnt-even-want-to-play?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

[dcmissle]

Unusual honesty from a professional athlete in a team sport. Yes, I read the media criticism, and it bothered me. I felt apart from the team because I played beneath my abilities and expectations and really didn't contribute to SB win.

 

[Red Averages]

Unusual honesty from a professional athlete in a team sport. Yes, I read the media criticism, and it bothered me. I felt apart from the team because I played beneath my abilities and expectations and really didn't contribute to SB win.

Yup. Hopefully the fact that he addressed it as he did sets the tone for a great offseason for him as he's clearly motivated to prove to himself and teammates that he can contribute.

 

[dbn]

There are two ways a fan could interpret this. The pessimistic way would be that his poor performance and benching has gotten in his head and he's questioning whether he even wants to continue. The optimistic way is that he's not taking things for granted, knows he needs to - and can be - better, and is ready to prove himself every day in year-two.

I'm going with the latter.

Also, agree with dc's thought. I appreciate his forthrightness.

 

[E5 Yaz]

The longer version of the story talks about his determination:

For all his pained words about last season, Jones said the experience did not break him. He has leaned hard on his parents — his dad is the boys basketball coach at Dunbar — and on other longtime mentors. They've urged him to get out of his own head, where he tends to beat himself up for his poor performances.

"This kind of experience can break you," his mother said. "So my whole thing was, bend but don't break. You have to have a short memory."

Jones is already planted at an offseason performance center in New Jersey, where he's determined to get his mind and body right for 2017. He even canceled a planned vacation with his parents.

"No such thing as an offseason for me," he said. "I didn't earn it."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/nfl/bs-sp-cyrus-jones-proclamation-0217-20170216-story.html

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

Funny, I was just thinking about Cyrus and how the SB win* makes me feel a whole lot better about throwing him out there on returns from day one next season. There was an urgency to this past season and getting #5 to close the books on ParkAvenueGate and Brady's GOATness to the point that it was simply untenable to let him learn on the job, but now it feels like they can afford to give him the chance to be a real asset.

*The trophy really does make everything better. Cyrus, questioning the Chandler and Collins trades, entering free agency and the draft trying to bolster the best team in the league instead of finding the piece to get them over the top. Happy times.

 

[tims4wins]

Totally agree about the title making everything better. If they let Hightower walk I won't even blink

 

[NortheasternPJ]

There are two ways a fan could interpret this. The pessimistic way would be that his poor performance and benching has gotten in his head and he's questioning whether he even wants to continue. The optimistic way is that he's not taking things for granted, knows he needs to - and can be - better, and is ready to prove himself every day in year-two.

I'm going with the latter.

Also, agree with dc's thought. I appreciate his forthrightness.

I'm not concerned about his kick returns but as a 2nd round pick at corner, if he gets beat a few times is he going to into a shell and suck? We heard BB talk about that with Arrington.