Coaching to take a charge?

[ivanvamp]

My daughter plays for a very successful high school basketball program and the coach (in her second year) is an old-school kind of coach.  She's very good and I am glad she's our coach, but one of the things she is teaching the kids is that she wants them to take charges.  I am dead set opposed to it and let me explain why.
 
1.  It is dangerous.  When you stand there to take a charge, you are TRYING to get run over.  That's the point.  Instead of trying to block a shot or strip the ball or find another way to defend the driver, you are standing there with the sole purpose of getting trucked.  You try to do it as safely as possible (and there are better ways of doing this than others), but the point is:  you are standing there expecting to get run over.  In our world of increasing awareness of concussions, this seems to be a recipe for disaster.  Why encourage your players to stand in front of a player moving at full speed directly towards you?  Aren't you essentially asking them to risk injury?
 
2.  It is bad defense.  Think about taking a charge.  You stand there, straight up, not moving (or it's a blocking foul), and not trying to deny a shot.  You're just stock-still bracing yourself.  Kids today are often so skilled that if you just stand there, they'll just euro-step right around you for a layup.  
 
3.  It is ineffective in what it tries to do.  Interesting article here (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1837009-how-the-defensive-rule-change-will-be-a-disaster-for-college-basketball).  I've long contended that *AT BEST*, even if you're in great position to take a charge, it's a 50-50 call from a ref.  At best.  Now rule changes are such that it's even harder to get a charge call.  One quote from an NCAA referee (in the article cited above):  "We had a power point seminar with 200 bang-bang, block-charge calls from last year.  Last year, those calls were 50-50.  Now, maybe 25 out of 200 would actually be charge calls."  
 
So even if you do everything right, it's a 1 in 8 chance you'll get the call.  Not 1 in 2.  1 in 8.  That alone makes it a low percentage play.  So what can happen if you try to get a charge?  Even if there's no injury - I'm just talking basketball outcomes.
 
- You can get a charge but they still count a basket.
- You can get a blocking foul on yourself.
- You can get a blocking foul and they make the basket for a three point opportunity.
- They can euro-step right around you for a layup while you stand there looking stupid.
 
In almost every scenario, the possible outcome is a bad one for you and your team.  Only 1 in 8 can possibly qualify, really, as good outcomes.  Yes, they can miss a layup but since you're not actually playing any defense on them if they miss it you can't really get credit for that.  So most basketball outcomes when you stand there trying to take a charge end up being bad.  And that's not even factoring in the injury issues.
 
 
Ok.  So here I am coaching my sophomore daughter, a starter on the varsity team (yay!).  She's tough as nails, but slight of build.  The coach wants her taking charges.  I'm of the completely opposite view, obviously.  I want her to actually try to play defense instead of taking charges.  For injury-sake and to increase the likelihood of a positive basketball outcome.  
 
Do you guys think I should have a conversation with the coach?  She's pretty approachable and I don't want to be coaching my kid at cross-purposes with the coach.  But I'm pretty against the old-school "stand there and take a charge" approach.
 
What say ye?

 

[RedOctober3829]

Part of playing defense is taking charges.  You therefore have to practice it.  In team M2M defense, you don't stand there for a few seconds for the sole purpose of taking a charge.  It should be part of a rotation.  Charges have a place in a good defensive philosophy.  I don't think you should tell her to not take them.  It's part of the game.  I don't see it being a 1 in 8 chance in high school basketball.  I've played and watched more HS basketball than a lot of people and the referees usually give the call to the defense.  It's different than in college because they are better referees and the plays happen faster in college than HS.

 

[ivanvamp]

I see HS players try to take charges and they rarely get it.  Maybe 1 or 2 charges a game if they're lucky all game long.  Maybe.  But usually not even that.  
 
The benefit just is overwhelmingly outweighed by the possible negatives - including serious injury.  A few years ago a girl on my team went down the lane hard, a girl on the other team ended up stepping in to take a charge.  Was a hair late (she got called for the foul) but she got absolutely train wrecked.  Concussion.  Out for the rest of the season.
 
Over one ill-advised "take a charge" decision.  

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I see HS players try to take charges and they rarely get it.  Maybe 1 or 2 charges a game if they're lucky all game long.  Maybe.  But usually not even that.  
 
The benefit just is overwhelmingly outweighed by the possible negatives - including serious injury.  A few years ago a girl on my team went down the lane hard, a girl on the other team ended up stepping in to take a charge.  Was a hair late (she got called for the foul) but she got absolutely train wrecked.  Concussion.  Out for the rest of the season.
 
Over one ill-advised "take a charge" decision.  

 
I was once playing in an adult league; a friend of mine (who was small but stocky and kind of a maniac) decided to take a charge; he ended up in the hospital with broken ribs.  I say this because I am sympathetic to your position.
 
However, I have real doubts that any coach is going is going to listen to any parent who stops them from trying to teach a player to take a charge.  First of all, it's absolutely ingrained in the culture.  How many games have you watched where the announcers cream over guys/women taking a charge? 
 
If you had to do it, perhaps you might start with a short email to take her temperature on the subject, but don't be surprised if you get shot down immediately.

 

[Average Reds]

I see HS players try to take charges and they rarely get it.  Maybe 1 or 2 charges a game if they're lucky all game long.  Maybe.  But usually not even that.  
 
The benefit just is overwhelmingly outweighed by the possible negatives - including serious injury.  A few years ago a girl on my team went down the lane hard, a girl on the other team ended up stepping in to take a charge.  Was a hair late (she got called for the foul) but she got absolutely train wrecked.  Concussion.  Out for the rest of the season.
 
Over one ill-advised "take a charge" decision.  

 
I read your opening post, the second post and then your response here.  And it seems as if what you're saying is that you are less interested in a discussion and prefer to rant against taking charges.  
 
That's fine, but that's a strange way to approach a new thread. 

 

[riboflav]

My daughter plays for a very successful high school basketball program and the coach (in her second year) is an old-school kind of coach.  She's very good and I am glad she's our coach, but one of the things she is teaching the kids is that she wants them to take charges.  I am dead set opposed to it and let me explain why.
 
1.  It is dangerous.  When you stand there to take a charge, you are TRYING to get run over.  That's the point.  Instead of trying to block a shot or strip the ball or find another way to defend the driver, you are standing there with the sole purpose of getting trucked.  You try to do it as safely as possible (and there are better ways of doing this than others), but the point is:  you are standing there expecting to get run over.  In our world of increasing awareness of concussions, this seems to be a recipe for disaster.  Why encourage your players to stand in front of a player moving at full speed directly towards you?  Aren't you essentially asking them to risk injury?
 
2.  It is bad defense.  Think about taking a charge.  You stand there, straight up, not moving (or it's a blocking foul), and not trying to deny a shot.  You're just stock-still bracing yourself.  Kids today are often so skilled that if you just stand there, they'll just euro-step right around you for a layup.  
 
3.  It is ineffective in what it tries to do.  Interesting article here (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1837009-how-the-defensive-rule-change-will-be-a-disaster-for-college-basketball).  I've long contended that *AT BEST*, even if you're in great position to take a charge, it's a 50-50 call from a ref.  At best.  Now rule changes are such that it's even harder to get a charge call.  One quote from an NCAA referee (in the article cited above):  "We had a power point seminar with 200 bang-bang, block-charge calls from last year.  Last year, those calls were 50-50.  Now, maybe 25 out of 200 would actually be charge calls."  
 
So even if you do everything right, it's a 1 in 8 chance you'll get the call.  Not 1 in 2.  1 in 8.  That alone makes it a low percentage play.  So what can happen if you try to get a charge?  Even if there's no injury - I'm just talking basketball outcomes.
 
- You can get a charge but they still count a basket.
- You can get a blocking foul on yourself.
- You can get a blocking foul and they make the basket for a three point opportunity.
- They can euro-step right around you for a layup while you stand there looking stupid.
 
In almost every scenario, the possible outcome is a bad one for you and your team.  Only 1 in 8 can possibly qualify, really, as good outcomes.  Yes, they can miss a layup but since you're not actually playing any defense on them if they miss it you can't really get credit for that.  So most basketball outcomes when you stand there trying to take a charge end up being bad.  And that's not even factoring in the injury issues.
 
 
Ok.  So here I am coaching my sophomore daughter, a starter on the varsity team (yay!).  She's tough as nails, but slight of build.  The coach wants her taking charges.  I'm of the completely opposite view, obviously.  I want her to actually try to play defense instead of taking charges.  For injury-sake and to increase the likelihood of a positive basketball outcome.  
 
Do you guys think I should have a conversation with the coach?  She's pretty approachable and I don't want to be coaching my kid at cross-purposes with the coach.  But I'm pretty against the old-school "stand there and take a charge" approach.
 
What say ye?

 
Doesn't the coach have a no talking about tactics policy? If not, the coach is hardly old school.
 
I woud not under any circumstances discuss this with a coach unless your kid is physically hurting and taking charges in practice puts her in further jeopardy. Of course, most coaches will say, "if she's too hurt to practice, she's too hurt to play in the games."
 
FWIW, I'm a high school girls' varsity coach in Virginia and we practice charges everyday; run the VCU drill to start each practice (the famous one they ran at the final four); track the effect charges taken have on our opponents' dribble drives; and give out incentives for each charge taken in scrimmages and games. I deal with about 4-5 concussions a season (anecdotally, girls basketball seems to have more than their fair share) and haven't had one yet resulting from an attempted charge taken. Most seem to come from going after a loose ball. Perhaps, we could change the rules so that when there's a loose ball the play is whistled dead

 

[ivanvamp]

I can see that. I really am open to a discussion. I want to know the value of coaching to take a charge. In a changing basketball landscape why is it a good play, especially given the injury possibility?

I feel fairly strongly about this but I brought it up because I want to hear other peoples' opinions.

 

[Average Reds]

I can see that. I really am open to a discussion. I want to know the value of coaching to take a charge. In a changing basketball landscape why is it a good play, especially given the injury possibility?

I feel fairly strongly about this but I brought it up because I want to hear other peoples' opinions.

 
The caveat here is that I say this without any knowledge of the coach, so the points are general in nature.
 
Coaching to take a charge is rarely about actually taking a charge.  It's about teaching kids to establish good defensive position and about coaching footwork.
 
The reason that most collisions you see in HS basketball are rarely called as charges is because most of them are blocking fouls.  The kids are learning how to do it.  That means - at the outset, at least - they'll get there late and slide under the opponent, which should always be called as a defensive foul.
 
Over time, they will improve.  And as they improve, you'll find that not only will a greater percentage of these collisions be called charges, but the team itself will play better defense.  To the extent that they are all working on their speed, agility and footwork, they'll start to play astonishingly better defense.
 
If your issue is with the danger of concussions, that too can (and should be) be coached.  Because the players should be instructed to never place themselves in a position where they end up slamming their heads into the ground.  (I never did in four years of playing HS ball.)  If this is not happening, then I sympathize with your concern.
 
If the issue is that you just don't agree with the strategy, then we'll agree to disagree.  Learning to establish good defensive position and how to beat the offensive player to the spot as they try to go around you is one of the more important elements of defensive play.

 

[ivanvamp]

 
Doesn't the coach have a no talking about tactics policy? If not, the coach is hardly old school.
 
I woud not under any circumstances discuss this with a coach unless your kid is physically hurting and taking charges in practice puts her in further jeopardy. Of course, most coaches will say, "if she's too hurt to practice, she's too hurt to play in the games."
 
FWIW, I'm a high school girls' varsity coach in Virginia and we practice charges everyday; run the VCU drill to start each practice (the famous one they ran at the final four); track the effect charges taken have on our opponents' dribble drives; and give out incentives for each charge taken in scrimmages and games. I deal with about 4-5 concussions a season (anecdotally, girls basketball seems to have more than their fair share) and haven't had one yet resulting from an attempted charge taken. Most seem to come from going after a loose ball. Perhaps, we could change the rules so that when there's a loose ball the play is whistled dead

 
I think it's probably good advice not to talk to the coach.  As for the last part, the difference, of course, is that with a loose ball the purpose is to go for a loose ball, not crash into another player (though it happens).  In a "take a charge" situation, the entire objective is to allow yourself to get run over.  It's not just about concussions (though there's that).  It's just plain old dangerous.  

 

[riboflav]

I can see that. I really am open to a discussion. I want to know the value of coaching to take a charge. In a changing basketball landscape why is it a good play, especially given the injury possibility?

I feel fairly strongly about this but I brought it up because I want to hear other peoples' opinions.

 
I don't have time to elaborate right now. But, last season, we saw a 37% reduction in attempted dribble drives by our opponent after we successfully executed a charge taken.
 
Ironically, on offense, we teach our kids to run over as hard as they can any defender who stands in to take a charge against us. Don't avoid the contact, run through it. That way, our opponents are less likely to try it again. 
 
Penetrating the lane and stopping the ball from entering the lane are so important to us which is why we take charges and run through them. Basketball is a physical game and we want to be the best. We want to be the most physical team in our district.
 
EDIT: Reds makes good points. Practice is essential to avoiding injury.

 

[ivanvamp]

 
The caveat here is that I say this without any knowledge of the coach, so the points are general in nature.
 
Coaching to take a charge is rarely about actually taking a charge.  It's about teaching kids to establish good defensive position and about coaching footwork.
 
The reason that most collisions you see in HS basketball are rarely called as charges is because most of them are blocking fouls.  The kids are learning how to do it.  That means - at the outset, at least - they'll get there late and slide under the opponent, which should always be called as a defensive foul.
 
Over time, they will improve.  And as they improve, you'll find that not only will a greater percentage of these collisions be called charges, but the team itself will play better defense.  To the extent that they are all working on their speed, agility and footwork, they'll start to play astonishingly better defense.
 
If your issue is with the danger of concussions, that too can (and should be) be coached.  Because the players should be instructed to never place themselves in a position where they end up slamming their heads into the ground.  (I never did in four years of playing HS ball.)  If this is not happening, then I sympathize with your concern.
 
If the issue is that you just don't agree with the strategy, then we'll agree to disagree.  Learning to establish good defensive position and how to beat the offensive player to the spot as they try to go around you is one of the more important elements of defensive play.

 
I'm all about defensive position.  None of my kids are very quick so I teach them about footwork and anticipation.  And obviously if there's going to be contact, I want my kid to draw a charge rather than get called for a block.  
 
I guess I'm thinking more of the "there's a freight train thundering down the lane…I want you to step in front of it" kind of thing that I worry about.

 

[riboflav]

 
I think it's probably good advice not to talk to the coach.  As for the last part, the difference, of course, is that with a loose ball the purpose is to go for a loose ball, not crash into another player (though it happens).  In a "take a charge" situation, the entire objective is to allow yourself to get run over.  It's not just about concussions (though there's that).  It's just plain old dangerous.  

 
It is dangerous in the sense that it would be less dangerous to avoid purposeful contact. You won't win much at the high school level where I coach by avoiding contact. 
 
Sorry, I really must run now.

 

[ivanvamp]

 
I don't have time to elaborate right now. But, last season, we saw a 37% reduction in attempted dribble drives by our opponent after we successfully executed a charge taken.
 
Ironically, on offense, we teach our kids to run over as hard as they can any defender who stands in to take a charge against us. Don't avoid the contact, run through it. That way, our opponents are less likely to try it again. 
 
Penetrating the lane and stopping the ball from entering the lane are so important to us which is why we take charges and run through them. Basketball is a physical game and we want to be the best. We want to be the most physical team in our district.
 
EDIT: Reds makes good points. Practice is essential to avoiding injury.

 
Interesting stuff.  Have you tracked the same reduction if you have a player reject a layup attempt?  Does a blocked shot have the same level of deterrence as a charge call?  And what percentage of charge attempts result in that charge call?

 

[DJnVa]

I can see that. I really am open to a discussion. I want to know the value of coaching to take a charge. In a changing basketball landscape why is it a good play, especially given the injury possibility?
 

 
Are there really that many injuries from taking charges? Outside of the 2 listed anecdotally here I mean? And could this be because the person that was injured wasn't coached into the correct way to take charges--how to anticipate what the offensive player is going to do, etc.?
 
 
 

 And what percentage of charge attempts result in that charge call?

 
And what percentage of block attempts lead to a foul? 
 
And I think Red nails it--the coaching is less about the charge and more about positioning and the old saying that "you play defense with your feet".

 

[ivanvamp]

 
It is dangerous in the sense that it would be less dangerous to avoid purposeful contact. You won't win much at the high school level where I coach by avoiding contact. 
 
Sorry, I really must run now.

 
Ok, this is not a time sensitive subject so you can reply when you get a chance.  No worries.  I appreciate the thoughts.
 
And I'm not advocating stepping out of the way and letting the offensive player go by.  I'm advocating trying to stop the opponent.  Ball strip.  Blocked shot.  Denial of space.  Those kinds of things, instead of standing there trying to draw a charge.
 
On our school's boys team, they had one player last year who was well known for taking charges.  Probably took 10 the entire season.  But as he did that, half the time guys got and-ones or just stepped around him for layups or there was a no-call.  So for all the awesomeness of taking those 10 charges, he must have given up 30 layups and taken at least 20 fouls himself.  I don't know these numbers exactly.  It's just from observation.  He rarely got the call despite trying A LOT, and he gave up tons of points that way.
 
But the coach, at the senior dinner, was all excited about this kid's ability to take charges.  

 

[DJnVa]

 
FWIW, I'm a high school girls' varsity coach in Virginia

 

Where do you coach? Or do you not want worlds to collide?

 

[ivanvamp]

 
Are there really that many injuries from taking charges? Outside of the 2 listed anecdotally here I mean? And could this be because the person that was injured wasn't coached into the correct way to take charges--how to anticipate what the offensive player is going to do, etc.?
 
 
 
 
And what percentage of block attempts lead to a foul? 
 
And I think Red nails it--the coaching is less about the charge and more about positioning and the old saying that "you play defense with your feet".

 
Yeah good points.  I don't know the statistics.  I just know this one undeniable fact:  When you stand there trying to take a charge, you are purposefully putting yourself in a position to get run over.  That's the whole idea.  And I look at my slightly built kid (a very good player, but thin) and I imagine her getting absolutely run over by a much bigger, heavier kid because her coach told her this was a good thing to do, and she gets hurt because of it, when it's not a very good percentage play, especially at this level of basketball.  
 
I'm trying to coach her in how to take contact as safely as possible, but she's a really good shot blocker and rarely fouls, and I'd rather her block the shot than stand there and get run over.

 

[knuck]

Taking a charge is a defensive skill/tool, but rotations and proper defensive technique, are way more important to good defense than just getting to a spot to try to take a charge.
As others have said, if the coach is teaching kids that getting to a spot to take a charge is the best way to play defense...well that certainly isn't right.

 

[Just a bit outside]

 
Yeah good points.  I don't know the statistics.  I just know this one undeniable fact:  When you stand there trying to take a charge, you are purposefully putting yourself in a position to get run over.  That's the whole idea.  And I look at my slightly built kid (a very good player, but thin) and I imagine her getting absolutely run over by a much bigger, heavier kid because her coach told her this was a good thing to do, and she gets hurt because of it, when it's not a very good percentage play, especially at this level of basketball.  
 
I'm trying to coach her in how to take contact as safely as possible, but she's a really good shot blocker and rarely fouls, and I'd rather her block the shot than stand there and get run over.

It sounds as though you think taking a charge is a bad decision for your daughter because she is a good shot blocker and that may in fact be a better choice for her some of the time.  Taking a charge is a defensive tool and should be used by some more than others.   Watching my son,the smallest guy on his high school team, taking a charge is part of playing defense.  At 5'8" with a 6 foot plus coming toward the hoop you step in and take the charge. If he tried to block the shot of just reach at the ball the outcome would be a foul and points more often than not. It hurts but it is part of the game.  I compare it to a cornerback taking on a pulling lineman, sometimes you give up your body to make the play.

 

[ivanvamp]

It sounds as though you think taking a charge is a bad decision for your daughter because she is a good shot blocker and that may in fact be a better choice for her some of the time.  Taking a charge is a defensive tool and should be used by some more than others.   Watching my son,the smallest guy on his high school team, taking a charge is part of playing defense.  At 5'8" with a 6 foot plus coming toward the hoop you step in and take the charge. If he tried to block the shot of just reach at the ball the outcome would be a foul and points more often than not. It hurts but it is part of the game.  I compare it to a cornerback taking on a pulling lineman, sometimes you give up your body to make the play.

Part of it is that she's a good shot blocker and I think it's a better use of her skill set and higher percentage defensive tactic for her.

But part of it is I worry about injury. She's a real scrapper and I'm fine with her banging underneath but there's a difference between battling for post position and deliberately standing there in order to get run over by a freight train.

 

[TheRooster]

She should be playing good defense AND taking the occasional charge.  If you are in good/great position, most opponents won't run you down.  If she tries to block too many shots she's going to get in foul trouble unless she is very tall.  I know of a varsity player who is somewhat tall and an absolute kangaroo.  She takes more charges than she blocks shots becuase she is also very quick.  I can't imagine trying to play organized ball without trying to take a few charges.  The 1 in 8 success rate you mention above does not reflect what I've seen in 20+ jv/varsity girls games in MA this year.  1 in 2 is closer and it goes up with quick or smart or skilled defenders.

 

[Heinie Wagner]

Shot blockers need to learn to take charges too (I was a shot blocker - 4/game Sr year in HS, #2 career at my college behind a guy who was a lottery pick)
 
The best teaching video I've seen on taking charges - talks about technique that will minimize injuries 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEykZ_chw4Y

 

[ivanvamp]

She should be playing good defense AND taking the occasional charge.  If you are in good/great position, most opponents won't run you down.  If she tries to block too many shots she's going to get in foul trouble unless she is very tall.  I know of a varsity player who is somewhat tall and an absolute kangaroo.  She takes more charges than she blocks shots becuase she is also very quick.  I can't imagine trying to play organized ball without trying to take a few charges.  The 1 in 8 success rate you mention above does not reflect what I've seen in 20+ jv/varsity girls games in MA this year.  1 in 2 is closer and it goes up with quick or smart or skilled defenders.

The 1 in 8 number reflects the new way they are instructing refs to call the game so what we've seen in the past won't apply in the future, making taking a charge a much lower percentage play. That's part of the equation here for me. If you're going to get run over I want you to at least have a good chance of actually having a charge called. It's becoming less and less the case, however.

 

[DJnVa]

Shot blockers need to learn to take charges too (I was a shot blocker - 4/game Sr year in HS, #2 career at my college behind a guy who was a lottery pick)

 
That's like a challenge to SoSH.
 
First I was thinking Colgate, but that's not right.