Chris Sale to IL with elbow inflammation

Red(s)HawksFan

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Wasn't Clement one of the top free agents that year? I'll cede Dempter and the Quitter.
Clement was in the same free agent market as Pedro, Lowe, and Pavano. Clement's biggest attribute was he was the youngest of the available free agent pitchers (at least of guys who warranted multi-year deals). My point in calling him a non-elite guy was more aimed at the fact that he was inferior to the guys they allowed to leave (and was paid less) and always felt like a consolation prize.
 

chawson

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Unless some enterprising reporter were to dig around all the contract offers free agent starters turned down, us fans will never know. But it seems like common sense to a degree.

Yes there have been starters that signed, but they’re more like exceptions that prove the rule. Price was an overpay. Dice-K was a bidding process. Schilling, Porcello, Beckett, Sale and Eovaldi were essentially extensions originally acquired by trade. Arroyo, Wells, Colon, Byrd, Fister, Penny, Miller, Masterson and Hill were fliers. Dempster was 36 and in decline (and would have been a terrible contract had he not voided it). Julian Tavarez was a converted reliever. John Lackey was John Lackey.

Clement is somewhat of an outlier, but not really. Theo signed him after they whiffed on Pavano, Pedro signed with the Mets, and the Braves traded for Hudson. They also knew they were letting Lowe walk. Clement was reportedly interested after 2004, and said he wanted to throw to Varitek.

To take a non-Yankee example, the Dodgers were rather dumbly run for a lot of the 21st century, but in that same time period they signed Ryu, Hill, Maeda, Schmidt, McCarthy, Kazmir, Greinke, Capuano, Harang, Lilly, Wolf, Kuroda, and Lowe, and extended Penny, Billingsley, and Kershaw to multi-year deals. There are a few other factors there, but it seems like a significantly different free agent dynamic than the Sox have.
 

Yelling At Clouds

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chawson said:
To take a non-Yankee example, the Dodgers were rather dumbly run for a lot of the 21st century, but in that same time period they signed Ryu, Hill, Maeda, Schmidt, McCarthy, Kazmir, Greinke, Capuano, Harang, Lilly, Wolf, Kuroda, and Lowe, and extended Penny, Billingsley, and Kershaw to multi-year deals. There are a few other factors there, but it seems like a significantly different free agent dynamic than the Sox have.
My first reaction is that a bunch of the guys you named are Tier 2 or below, not that much different from someone like Penny or Dempster at the same point in their respective careers. There are certainly more of them, but that might just reflect a front office that’s more willing to build a rotation via that avenue.

How often do top-tier starters change teams via free agency? It seems like they either get extended, traded (and then extended), or lose their elite-ness (because of injury or early decline) before the big payday.
 

nvalvo

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Sean McAdam suggests on twitter that it's a bit clearer cut than what people in this thread are suggesting:

"Sale was assured that there was no UCL damage and that he’s dealing only with inflammation."

Now, it might well be that once the inflammation dies down, the imaging will let them see things they can't see now. But it sounds like Dr. Andrews doesn't think that's what's going on. Also, per Speier: "Cora said symptoms of Sale’s injury never made him think Tommy John would be necessary."

So this inclines me more towards reloading for 2020 than selling.

edited to add: Shaughnessy's headline: "The news on Chris Sale’s elbow is potentially a disaster" *eyeroll emoji*
 
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chawson

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My first reaction is that a bunch of the guys you named are Tier 2 or below, not that much different from someone like Penny or Dempster at the same point in their respective careers. There are certainly more of them, but that might just reflect a front office that’s more willing to build a rotation via that avenue.

How often do top-tier starters change teams via free agency? It seems like they either get extended, traded (and then extended), or lose their elite-ness (because of injury or early decline) before the big payday.
Many are probably tier two — or Type B free agents per the era — but I stuck to the classification of multi-year deals, or in the case of Randy Wolf, one-year deals twice.

What we don’t and probably can’t know is the difference between, as you say, a front office who’s “more willing to build a rotation via that avenue” vs. a front office that has systemic obstacles to doing so. But the Sox and Dodgers have had comparable payrolls over those years, and Boston has only signed five guys to multi-year deals that weren’t extensions (Price, Dempster, Lackey, Matsuzaka, Wells). If the Sox were able to sign #3-4 starters to cheap two-year deals more often, life would be a lot easier.
 

dcmissle

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Sean McAdam suggests on twitter that it's a bit clearer cut than what people in this thread are suggesting:

"Sale was assured that there was no UCL damage and that he’s dealing only with inflammation."

Now, it might well be that once the inflammation dies down, the imaging will let them see things they can't see now. But it sounds like Dr. Andrews doesn't think that's what's going on. Also, per Speier: "Cora said symptoms of Sale’s injury never made him think Tommy John would be necessary."

So this inclines me more towards reloading for 2020 than selling.
Never let sober McAdam analysis get in the way of a Shaughnessy apocalyptic column. It’s not good for clicks.
 

Sampo Gida

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Do we have any medical professionals that can layout the possible diagnoses for elbow inflammation?
The absence of information is probably the most telling. I would guess a partial UCL tear much like Tanaka experienced a few years ago. PCP and shut down allows recovery without TJS, but keep in mind scar tissue is not as strong or durable as healthy tissue

Not a Doc. Maybe its something else. Like Tanaka , Sale might be able to avoid TJS, but he may not be the guy he was before last years 2nd half. Last year was a warning sign DD ignored. Sale knows his own situation better than anyone so like Beckett signed an extension before FA. Beware pitchers who leave money on the table for security. Not to blame Sale or Beckett, its a business.

Sale gave me as much pleasure watching him pitch as Pedro at his peak. For that I am grateful. We may not see peak Sale again but we likely see a very good pitcher in his remaining years. Lets face it, aside from a few starts this year Sale wasn't great, and he didn't finish last year well either. Whether he can avoid TJS or some other surgery we cant say, but pitchers recover much better from elbow injuries than shoulder injuries.

I expect Sale could be available out of the pen in the post season. I doubt he starts a game though , outside of being an opener.
 

UncleStinkfinger

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Oct 8, 2015
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is this one of those injuries that would be worth him taking a trip down to panama and getting those real deal not legal full spectrum of stem cell treatments?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Mar 26, 2005
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Unless some enterprising reporter were to dig around all the contract offers free agent starters turned down, us fans will never know. But it seems like common sense to a degree.

Yes there have been starters that signed, but they’re more like exceptions that prove the rule. Price was an overpay. Dice-K was a bidding process. Schilling, Porcello, Beckett, Sale and Eovaldi were essentially extensions originally acquired by trade. Arroyo, Wells, Colon, Byrd, Fister, Penny, Miller, Masterson and Hill were fliers. Dempster was 36 and in decline (and would have been a terrible contract had he not voided it). Julian Tavarez was a converted reliever. John Lackey was John Lackey.

Clement is somewhat of an outlier, but not really. Theo signed him after they whiffed on Pavano, Pedro signed with the Mets, and the Braves traded for Hudson. They also knew they were letting Lowe walk. Clement was reportedly interested after 2004, and said he wanted to throw to Varitek.

To take a non-Yankee example, the Dodgers were rather dumbly run for a lot of the 21st century, but in that same time period they signed Ryu, Hill, Maeda, Schmidt, McCarthy, Kazmir, Greinke, Capuano, Harang, Lilly, Wolf, Kuroda, and Lowe, and extended Penny, Billingsley, and Kershaw to multi-year deals. There are a few other factors there, but it seems like a significantly different free agent dynamic than the Sox have.
Without looking into details, one would think that trading cor Pedro, Schilling, and Beckett (etc.) meant that during those years the Sox were not looking to sign top-of-the-rotation starters