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Chili Davis and Brian Butterfield leave Sox for Cubs

Discussion in 'Red Sox Forum' started by RedOctober3829, Oct 26, 2017.

  1. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    28,883


    The #Cubs shake up coaching staff again; hire Chili Davis as hitting coach and Brian Butterfield as 3B coach, both from the #Redsox staff
     
  2. InsideTheParker

    InsideTheParker Member SoSH Member

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    I wonder if this means that they are giving Cora a free hand to hire his coaches, or that they were just fed up with the results from both coaches. One always hears how good Butter is teaching fielding fundamentals, but I was less happy with his sends to the plate. This is going to be interesting to watch.
     
  3. DennyDoyle'sBoil

    DennyDoyle'sBoil Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill SoSH Member

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    I think new managers typically "interview" the existing coaches or at least consider them. I think they usually get to pick their own guys or at least get very significant input. It's possible that the timing her just didn't work out. Maybe Davis and Butter felt in an exposed position, and the Cubs came calling, so they asked the Red Sox to allow them to go instead of waiting for the end of the world series with uncertain job security. Maybe the Cubs weren't willing to wait.

    Or maybe Cora said, "I've got my own guys," and management agreed to give him that authority and cut Butter and Davis loose.
     
  4. JimD

    JimD Member SoSH Member

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    5,975
    The Sox coaches were under contract until 2018, correct? I'm assuming they were more than Ok with moving forward if they are allowing them to interview with other teams. So much for the reports that they wanted to retain Butterfield.
     
  5. bosockboy

    bosockboy lurker

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    Clean slate. Excited to see the new staff.
     
  6. drbretto

    drbretto guidence counselor Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    I'm guessing here, but I doubt the Sox were necessarily trying to get rid of anyone here. There's a new manager coming in and that manager has the the option. Neither the Sox nor Cora need to have made any decisions yet for both coaches to want to listen to offers. They're not going to pass up on a guaranteed job with a contending team on the maybe possibility that they'll be back with this one next year.

    I wish them both well.
     
  7. JimD

    JimD Member SoSH Member

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    5,975
    Reportedly all of the Sox coaches were under contract through 2018, though. Maybe there's some etiquette here but I'm assuming the team has to given them the Ok to interview elsewhere.
     
  8. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    Dombrowski said in his press conference after announcing the Farrell change that he was not standing in the way of the coaches searching for new jobs.
     
  9. Van Everyman

    Van Everyman Member SoSH Member

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    Cubs rapidly becoming my second least-favorite team. These are the only two coaches I had hoped that would retain.
     
  10. JBJ_HOF

    JBJ_HOF Member SoSH Member

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    I bet: Rodriguez hitting, Bones pitching, Bannister stays, Amaro 3B, Febles 1B, Levangie stays
     
  11. Tyrone Biggums

    Tyrone Biggums nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion SoSH Member

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    I hate seeing Butterfield gone from the standpoint he's a really good coach for infielders. As a 3B Coach? He was not good at all. How many times over the last two seasons did we lament Butterfield giving the green light to pretty much everyone. Made Wendall Kim look conservative at times. Chili was the hitting coach for a team where everyone pretty much took a big step back offensively. Him leaving was expected. All accounts a good guy and I'm glad he landed in Chicago.
     
  12. drbretto

    drbretto guidence counselor Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    I'm being earnest here, can someone explain to me why people are lamenting the loss of Chili Davis? I'm admitting genuine ignorance, but I thought the idea is that the hitting coach should be sort of responsible for the overall offensive performance on the field. They were worse across the board and the power numbers were way down. Is there more to that job I'm not getting?
     
  13. BCsMightyJoeYoung

    BCsMightyJoeYoung Member SoSH Member

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    Well - they lead the league in offense the year before. Did Davis completely lose his coaching skills in one year?
     
  14. santadevil

    santadevil Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    2,667
    Fuck Chili Davis, I can go back to disliking him again


    Code:
                                                                                                                   
    Pitching                  IP H R ER BB SO HR  ERA BF Pit Str Ctct StS StL GB FB LD Unk GSc IR IS   WPA  aLI RE24
    Pedro Martinez W (21-4)    9 1 1  1  0 17  1 2.20 28 120  80   32  19  29  3  7  1   0        98 0.625 1.01  4.2
    Team Totals                9 1 1  1  0 17  1 1.00 28 120  80   32  19  29  3  7  1   0        98 0.625 1.01  4.2
    
    Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
    Generated 10/26/2017.
     
    #14 santadevil, Oct 26, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2017
  15. drbretto

    drbretto guidence counselor Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    That's not the only scenario where that can happen and it could be from his direction. He could well have just not tried to totally rock the boat his first year, then overstepped on the adjustments he had them go through the next year or something. That doesn't sway me much.

    I promise that I'm 100% ready to be swayed, though.
     
  16. JimD

    JimD Member SoSH Member

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    Missed that - thanks.
     
  17. mt8thsw9th

    mt8thsw9th anti-SoSHal SoSH Member

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    Fuck him for hitting a pitch that missed its target by a foot?
     
  18. BCsMightyJoeYoung

    BCsMightyJoeYoung Member SoSH Member

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    Well, that's the problem with relying on short term results as a measure of evaluating teaching effectiveness. I really haven't a clue whether he's good at his job or not. Based on results he looked great in 2016 and less so in 2017. Maybe he's really good at keeping players on a roll when they are going good - but less effective at addressing major problems when they aren't? Maybe the hitters have collectively tuned him out? Motivating guys is just as important as identifying flaws and correcting them.

    And maybe it was just a fluke year?

    Regardless .. clean slate.

    I think losing Butterfield is a real loss though.
     
  19. drbretto

    drbretto guidence counselor Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Oh, I agree. I'm not making the case he was bad, either. I was just puzzled by those that were really disappointed. I thought they just knew something I didn't.

    I have a real hard time thinking the power outtage was a fluke, though. But, like you said, clean slate!
     
  20. santadevil

    santadevil Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    2,667
    Sorry, I just assume people know history behind that game, being one of Pedro's most dominant ever, which is saying something
     
  21. Snodgrass'Muff

    Snodgrass'Muff oppresses WARmongers Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    The power drop is really simple and has nothing to do with Chili. They were a mediocre power team with Papi in the lineup and Mookie getting really lucky on his home run rate in 2016. Then Mookie regressed and Hanley played with a bum shoulder.

    The difference between Hanley and Mookies 2016 and 2017 seasons accounts for 14 lost home runs. The difference between Papi and Moreland was another 16. Losing 30 home runs is huge, and none of those can be pinned on a hitting coach.

    That's not an argument for keeping him, mind you, but the power drop was mostly a combination of luck and a change in personnel on the field.
     
  22. mt8thsw9th

    mt8thsw9th anti-SoSHal SoSH Member

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    I have the damn game in my videos on the phone (complete with McCarver), but that was just a horribly missed location. Davis is no Gerald Williams.
     
  23. Van Everyman

    Van Everyman Member SoSH Member

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    14,200
    What about Xander and JBJ? They dropped from 21 to 10 and 26 to 17 respectively. That's another 20 home runs they didn't hit.
     
  24. DennyDoyle'sBoil

    DennyDoyle'sBoil Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill SoSH Member

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    Butter was the longest tenured 3B coach since Eddie Yost. And also the fourth longest tenured of all time, if wikipedia is to be believed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Red_Sox_coaches

    Fenway is a tough place to cut your teeth. I wouldn't mind seeing someone who has experience at the hot corner.
     
  25. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Maybe this should go in the wacky ideas thread, but you know who you might see on the Red Sox staff next season, perhaps as hitting coach? ... Carlos Beltran
     
  26. grimshaw

    grimshaw the new rudy SoSH Member

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    Meh -
    The team had a wRC+ of 99 in 2015, then was ridiculous last year, before this year returning to mediocrity. In other words, who knows how much of an impact he really had? Maybe the players just loved him and he was an alternative to Disarcinia as a sounding board.

    We know by reputation who the great pitching coaches are, but can anyone really say the same about hitting coaches? Let's see. . . there's Kevin Long? Maybe?
     
  27. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Did we miss that Carl Willis is going to be the Indians' pitching coach?
     
  28. Van Everyman

    Van Everyman Member SoSH Member

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    14,200
    It's like one of Carl's mound visits. We just expect the worst when he's involved, so we choose to ignore them.
     
  29. Snodgrass'Muff

    Snodgrass'Muff oppresses WARmongers Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    27,139
    Xander had a 49.5 expected home run percentage. So his drop is right in line with that. JBJ's was at 53.6% which would have been about 14 home runs, so that drop wasn't surprising either.
     
  30. EddieYost

    EddieYost has a special friend in GHoff SoSH Member

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    Hi
     
  31. Lose Remerswaal

    Lose Remerswaal Leaves after the 8th inning Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Y'all understand that Butter sending all those guys home wasn't his lack of ability to recognize that many runners were gong to be thrown out, right? That it was a ballclub decision to be aggressive on the basepaths and this was the cost of that decision.

    If the team keeps that policy the next guy should have a similar rate of guys thrown out at home.
     
  32. joe dokes

    joe dokes Member SoSH Member

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    We only count the outs around here.
     
  33. Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat

    Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat has big, douchey shoulders Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Welcome aboard
     
  34. DennyDoyle'sBoil

    DennyDoyle'sBoil Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill SoSH Member

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    I always thought you were a crappy 3B coach. But I was like 9, so what do I know.
     
  35. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

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    Which is fair and as someone who didn't watch a ton of games this season, I'd ask if the individual outs on the bases merit criticism or not. There's a difference between being aggressive and being reckless. I honestly can't comment on which Butterfield was as I'm working on small sample size, but I do remember seeing some replays where guys were out by a matter of yards.
     
  36. EddieYost

    EddieYost has a special friend in GHoff SoSH Member

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    Yeah but you gotta admit "the walking man" was a cool nickname.
     
  37. DennyDoyle'sBoil

    DennyDoyle'sBoil Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill SoSH Member

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    Yeah. Nicknames were cooler in the 60s and 70s.
     
  38. streeter88

    streeter88 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Seconded. Never liked them, even when I lived in Chicago. Actively rooted against them last year too.

    Edit: that sounds a bit petty - I actually thought Cleveland was more deserving.
     
  39. Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat

    Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat has big, douchey shoulders Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    25,224
    "Big Unit" was pretty great
     
  40. RGREELEY33

    RGREELEY33 Potty Mouth Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    This is almost exclusively Dombrowski letting his new Manager pick his own staff. It has nothing to do with thinking Chili or Butterfield sucked.
     
  41. Hank Scorpio

    Hank Scorpio Member SoSH Member

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    I'm rubbing my hands together, anticipating the compensation we get from the Cubs this time. I'm thinking Rizzo and a couple of lottery ticket A ball arms.
     
  42. mt8thsw9th

    mt8thsw9th anti-SoSHal SoSH Member

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    Which, for a team having trouble hitting home runs, is the correct strategy. I would imagine the net runs gained by taking this approach was in the black, despite how much people loved to complain about it. They didn’t have anything close to the lineups that Sveum was waving in.
     
  43. Lose Remerswaal

    Lose Remerswaal Leaves after the 8th inning Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    If only Gary Sanchez caught all 162 games a year against the Red Sox!
     
  44. Kid T

    Kid T Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I believe Xander had a hand injury that impacted his power for much of the season as well
     
  45. DisgruntledSoxFan77

    DisgruntledSoxFan77 lurker

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    Apparently Hickey is close to joining the Cubs also. That's certainly an interesting coaching staff over there. Maddux signed with the Cardinals... wondering if there'll be anyone good left for us
     
  46. Sprowl

    Sprowl gentleman, scholar, slumpbuster and glutton Dope

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    In memory of Brian Butterbur, barman at the Prancing Pony, Bree.

     
  47. Toe Nash

    Toe Nash Member SoSH Member

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    Yeah, we had threads about this. You can be aggressive and smart; a lot of his sends had no chance and / or were in situations where the break-even point was low. The Red Sox had the 2nd most runners thrown out on the bases since WWII and had a more or less average number of baserunners; you don't get there just by being aggressive (yes, many of those outs were other bases).

    I'm not sure his value added coaching the IF outweighed this though there's no good way to tell. Pedroia was already here and was already a great defender. Xander improved under Butterfield's tutelage, so he probably gets credit there, but he's about average now. No way to know what Devers / Nunez would have done under another coach.

    I won't miss him much.
     
  48. charlieoscar

    charlieoscar lurker

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    580
    A question that should be asked regarding base running, and probably can't be answered, is how many runners disregarded Butterfield's signs. And there are certainly instances in which a runner tries to draw the throw and get caught in a rundown to give a runner to score. Also, in cases like a runner on second and a single, the coach may be waiving the runner home and the batter gets thrown out trying to stretch because the cut-off man throws to second instead of home.

    I'm not trying to weigh in on either side of the Butterfield debate but I do think there should be a rethinking in how third-base coaches are evaluated with regard to base running.The assessment of blame is not quite as cut-and-dried as some make it out to be.
     
  49. BestGameEvah

    BestGameEvah Member SoSH Member

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    1,080
    THREE disregarded his signs. Three ran through his stop sign.
    13 were out at home on the contact play.
    So now we have 16 outs at home.
    8 of those he waved. <8,12,19,20,21,26,28,& 30>
    http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/outs-at-home-2017.20440/

    Quantify the outs, instead of reciting '30 outs at home'
    Look at the Pettis send of Altuve vs the Yankees. Broadcasters said the next day, that was the game. Trying to make something happen. Houston hit so well this year that it was a luxury Pettis had not having to take too many chances. And they had 20 outs at home.

    Anyway, I love Butter.
    The players love Butter.
    Theo has been after him since 2010.
    Notice that all three coaches...Butter, Chili & Willis were grabbed by two teams who did better than us. I will miss him and Catherine Varitek will miss him:
     
  50. JimD

    JimD Member SoSH Member

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    5,975
    I would have preferred Butterfield remain on the coaching staff based on his reputation, but I understand if Cora wanted a completely fresh slate.

    Davis and Willis I'm not broken up about losing - too many disappointing performances on their watches to make either a slam dunk to retain.
     

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