So? There's a first time for everything, and no one wants a selfish player like Carmello anyway.
Change of Address for Kevin Love - How About Causeway Street?
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Read the thread. There are are multiple paths to having the cap space necessary to making that happen next summer. The C's could have as much as 30 million dollars in space. The cap will be 70-71 million dollars. Who will be taking up that space? Why is it impossible to add a second star after Love? Show your math.moly99 said:
Grin&MartyBarret said:
It is possible that a legit all star comes to Boston through free agency, but I have no desire to bet the next half decade on Melo, Lebron or Chris Bosh signing here. That's the route the Knicks took, and when it fails you either end up overpaying for a second or third tier guy (Lance Stephenson, Luol Deng or the twilight years of Pau Gasol) or stuck in mediocrity with one star.
Are you saying the Celtics could trade for Love now, and still have up to 30M in cap space next summer?Grin&MartyBarret said:
While I guess technically possible, seems extremely unlikely.
If they trade for Love, they're going to have to put some pieces around him right away. Both to convince him to sign next summer, and be competitive next season.
So I'd be stunned in that scenario if they didn't sign Avery Bradley longterm, add a good veteran to a midlevel deal, probably re-sign Rondo next summer.
I'll say the Celtics traded Sullinger, #6, #17 Bogans and Anthony for Love as a guess.
Leaving this for summer of 2015 on books.
Love/Rondo conservatively 30Mish
Bradley 5Mish
midlevel 5M
Olynyk 2M
Wallace 10M, as low as 3.3M stretched
You're already at 45Mish for 5 guys, and you'd need to add 7 minimum cap holds that'll put you around 49M.
And to even get that low you'd have to have all these things happen as well.
Jeff Green opts out of his contract, and you renounce his Bird rights.
Renounce Brandon Bass Bird rights
Choose nobody in the first round of the draft this year or next.
Add/keep no other players on more than a one year deal this season.
Seems unlikely they'd have enough cap space to add even one big ticket guy, unless you're just picking a different guy than Rondo and letting Rondo just walk away.
Edit: I give up. I don't even know what to say to a plan of trade for Love, but don't try to build a winner around him right away. Instead burn it all down, let everyone you have walk and not only will Love want to stay, another star or two will line up to sign as free agents as well. In Boston. Really just don't know what to do with that, I've been beaten into submission.
The cap that year is 71 million. The first round pick gets you to 51. You renounce Bass because, of course. And more often than not guys in Green's position decline the option in favor of more guaranteed money, like Iguodala did last year. If Green opts in, you're at 59. But again, I don't know that he will, and if you want to move him he's expiring and it's not the hardest thing to do. Also, I don't know why you're re-signing Bradley. Ditto the mid-level guy. The entire notion of signing a guy just to make the team slightly more competitive in year one seems misguided to me. But I also don't really feel like going down the "will he re-sign road again," either.mcpickl said:
One thing we all can agree on though, is that if Love wants to win immediately, he doesn't come to Boston. The ONLY way he agrees to come here is if he's bought in long-term. Because of that, I don't think you re-sign Rondo. I don't think you sign Bradley. I don't think you spend the MLE. Hell, in the East a Rondo/Love team probably makes the playoffs next year. You're already providing him with something Minnesota never could. Why pay guys you don't really want to pay just to be slightly better in year 1?
In fact, I think you try to trade Rondo the moment you get Love. Dangle him as the piece to acquire a rim protector, if you can. Acquiring Love is the first step to wiping the slate clean to build around him.
So when I say it's possible to get to 30 million next summer, and people come back and say "No, it's not because if you acquire Love you have to pay Rondo, Avery Bradley, and spend the MLE" we're already on two different pages. You can't acquire Love and contend next year. Trying to would be a mistake. You have to sell him on a 2-3 year plan, show him the path to cap space, show him Danny's success drafting, and sell him on the franchise's history of consistently building winning teams. Ainge and Love's agent have a great relationship. Ainge will know if Love is bought into the idea of being a Celtic before he pulls the trigger. And if it turns out Love isn't bought into the idea and Ainge pulls the trigger anyhow, I think it's safe to read that as a commentary on how Ainge feels about a) the future prospects of Jared Sullinger and b) the players available at #6.
MakMan44 said:
Because it doesn't stop us from signing somebody in free agency, and doesn't put a timer on the rebuild.
I have no objection to signing Love when he hits free agency in 2014/2015. If we have our draft pick at #6, another top 10 pick next year and Love then we have a real chance of competing. I similarly have no objection to signing Melo this offseason and pairing him up with somebody like Dante Exum.
If your first move in rebuilding the team is to make a trade, then you have a set period of time to flesh out the roster. (The length of the contract of the star you traded for.) This means that 1) if you fail to find another star in that time you are screwed, and 2) you hand a ton of leverage to the star you've just traded for. Conversely look at what happened with Portland after rolling snake eyes on Greg Oden and Brandon Roy. It sucked, but they were able to continue building through the draft and recover surprisingly quickly.
Grin&MartyBarret said:
I just don't see why he would believe that, though, without any other blue chips guys on the roster and quite a few bad contracts still around. You proposal is that Love would sign a long term extension in the absence of a good supporting cast here. Why would he want to do that?
Oh I agree with you that we need two......before you get the second you need to acquire the first. In this case, Love would be the first. He's the Pierce......not the Garnett.moly99 said:
Love isn't hitting FA. Minny knows he's gone and they will earn a decent return for him. Wherever he approves a trade to he's gonna be 95% to remain there to maximize his earning power. Still not sure why people aren't understanding this.
Grin&MartyBarret said:
If Love has bought into Boston long-term, his people should be getting that message to DA's people because in this case it would be in HIS best interest for the C's to make the #6 pick. It's currently the Cs best chance to get a cost-controlled contributing player.
Except that Boston isn't the only place he'd re-sign, and if one of them offers a high pick, he'll be going there instead and extending there for more money.wade boggs chicken dinner said:
Holy shit. What's so complicated about this? The Celtics, right now, are bad. Agree? So why would Kevin Love, if he wants to win now, come to Boston?moly99 said:
The only way Boston interests him is if it's long term. They have nothing to offer short term. My "proposal" is that trades in the NBA don't take place in a vacuum. Ainge and Love's agent will have had ample opportunity to communicate with each other, and Ainge will have had the opportunity to explain his vision for building around Love. If Love comes to Boston, it will be because they can put a solid supporting cast around him in year two. You know how I know? Because that's when they can put a solid supporting cast around him. If he doesn't want to wait until year 2, he won't come here. He's holding the cards.
Okay, so my estimates are off by about 3 mil. Replace the number 30 with 27. Same principles apply.Brickowski said:
No he isn't. He's the Garnett in that he is the player you get by giving up a significant chunk of your assets.HomeRunBaker said:
Either Rondo is the Pierce or there isn't one.
That is the undersold part of the Big 3 (and Miami's as well). They were built with moves to get 2 All-Stars next to an All-Star already on the roster.
Now it is possible Rondo is your 2nd, the other option is 2 more trades or a trade and a FA signing.
However if you are looking at past methods of Roster construction Love is the Garnett piece.
Edit- As to the above conversation. I don't for a minute think if they trade for Love they get rid of Rondo. Love may be willing to sign with Boston, but he isn't doing it for a long rebuild, he would be doing it with the assumption they keep Rondo and trade more future pieces to win now. He's been clear he doesn't want to be stuck in a Minnesota situation again, and rebuilding for half his contract is something he's not signing on for.
We sold out our final pieces for KG.....we wouldn't nearly be doing the same for Love. Once a deal was theoretically done we'd still have all those pieces in place to move for the KG.Cellar-Door said:
We'd have Love and the (2-3) super valuable Nets picks possibly in the two drafts that are artificially juiced up by Silver's 20-year old age requirement. Before, we had Pierce and the pieces (Jefferson and picks).....Now, we'd have Love and pieces (Rondo and picks).
We aren't emptying the barrel for Love like we did for KG.
I don't know, emptying the barrel for KG still left them with Rondo, Perkins, and TA to fill important roles on cheap contracts. That doesn't kill a potential Love-led Celtics team or anything but it does make me nervous that the path to filling out the starting lineup is so unclear (not logistically, literally just that they need a lot of players and I don't know who they are). The Rondo situation adds some extra intrigue there as well. It would help if Ainge could immediately pick up a Sanders or somebody like that without giving up more than an asset or two.
if they were theoretically lucky enough to empty the barrel for 3 all stars, leaving them with a roster of 3 all stars and minimum contract garbage, that's basically what the Miami Heat did in year 1. But by year 2, can start filling in with draft picks, ring whores / free agent role players (rim protectors who do nothing else; perimeter defenders who do nothing else; spot up shooters who do nothing else).
the biggest problem isn't "which star at what price"? It's how do you get any star at any price. The secondary problem is at what price. I look at things pretty simplistically. Maybe too much so. We have 2 real assets on the roster (Sullinger & Olynyk). In addition we have 10 draft picks (possibly 11 depending on Philadelphia) in the next 5 years, of which 8 are tradeable (can't trade our own in 2 consecutive years). Any of those picks or players are real assets that a team who is trading a star & having to tear down & rebuild would be happy to get back. You look at historical trades for stars who are about to hit free agency and it's typically 2-3 such assets per star. We have 10 such tradable assets. If there were 3 kevin loves this year (at different positions), why wouldn't you try to get all 3 right now?
the biggest problem isn't "which star at what price"? It's how do you get any star at any price. The secondary problem is at what price. I look at things pretty simplistically. Maybe too much so. We have 2 real assets on the roster (Sullinger & Olynyk). In addition we have 10 draft picks (possibly 11 depending on Philadelphia) in the next 5 years, of which 8 are tradeable (can't trade our own in 2 consecutive years). Any of those picks or players are real assets that a team who is trading a star & having to tear down & rebuild would be happy to get back. You look at historical trades for stars who are about to hit free agency and it's typically 2-3 such assets per star. We have 10 such tradable assets. If there were 3 kevin loves this year (at different positions), why wouldn't you try to get all 3 right now?
I'm about 101% certain that Minny has given Schwartz the go ahead to find them a deal. Tampering in cases like this as a non-starter when it's cleared and everyone is looking for the same result.Devizier said:
Nobody is saying we are going to be contenders overnight. We do need to establish younger building blocks then utilize our future assets with the 10 first rounders over the next 5 years to add to the cast. You have to begin somewhere and in the NBA, and in such a singular sport like basketball in general, you can start with one excellent player.Jed Zeppelin said:
If Love is in Boston I'd expect him to be prancing around the Fenway area around dinner time prior to a visit to the game.
Comcast reporting Love to be at DelFrisco's tonight with 2 buddies and then Sox game on Sunday.
Sounds like the parameters of a deal firmly in place.
Sounds like the parameters of a deal firmly in place.
Instead of chasing Asik, IF the Celts are going to deal for Love, I would hope Danny is pushing for an inclusion of Dieng. He is blocked by Pek for playing time and showed to be a great rim protector and gobbled up rebounds when he got minutes. Lets say none of the Nets picks are in play for Love, I would have no problem throwing one of those in if it included him.
Obviously a bit of a dream because he is the kind of player that Minny probably wants to keep since he is only entering his 2nd year, but he fills an obvious need without taking on a overpriced player.
I'm in the "dont trade for Love" camp, and to be completely honest, I prefer Dieng to Love. He would come much cheaper, cost controlled for 4 years, and fill a glaring need.
Obviously a bit of a dream because he is the kind of player that Minny probably wants to keep since he is only entering his 2nd year, but he fills an obvious need without taking on a overpriced player.
I'm in the "dont trade for Love" camp, and to be completely honest, I prefer Dieng to Love. He would come much cheaper, cost controlled for 4 years, and fill a glaring need.
BigSoxFan said:
Way to take what I said out of context. I feel like its better use of our assets to trade one pick for Dieng(if we could) and not the house for Love
This is the same Dieng who was stapled to the bench until the final 6 weeks of the season when there were nO other healthy options, correct?
Hey I'm not with the team but I'd suspect a 24-year old rookie if he had showed any ability would have had his number called over Turiaf and Dante Cunningham. I want to say I recall a Wolves game where they went small with a Love, Cunningham and Robbie Hummel frontcourt while Dieng was on the bench.
Hey I'm not with the team but I'd suspect a 24-year old rookie if he had showed any ability would have had his number called over Turiaf and Dante Cunningham. I want to say I recall a Wolves game where they went small with a Love, Cunningham and Robbie Hummel frontcourt while Dieng was on the bench.
My issue with acquiring Love is not only do you have to give up a player(Sully) and probably at least 2 high picks, you then have to acquire a guy like Asik, surrendering more assets. Love will get a max deal, Rondo will get a raise after next year and Asik isn't cheap. I don't even want to talk about Green's salary. The rest of the roster will have to be filled with mostly minimum salary guys. This is obviously working in Miami, but Rondo/Love/Asik are not the big 3 in South Beach.
I'm not saying Love wont make them better, and I dont balk at the cost to acquire. We aren't all aiming for the Celts to make the playoffs and get knocked out in round 2 every year. With how the roster is currently constructed, and with what we have to add, I just dont see Love pushing the team to title contender. I mean is Rondo/Love/Asik really that much better than Rubio/Love/Pek? I'm sure a little, but that core couldn't get them out of the first round.
And again why is everyone thinking its nuts that I think Dieng is a better value and use the saved assets else where? Instead of calling it crazy, how about you explain your reasoning why you don't agree or are we turning into the comments section on espn.com?
I'm not saying Love wont make them better, and I dont balk at the cost to acquire. We aren't all aiming for the Celts to make the playoffs and get knocked out in round 2 every year. With how the roster is currently constructed, and with what we have to add, I just dont see Love pushing the team to title contender. I mean is Rondo/Love/Asik really that much better than Rubio/Love/Pek? I'm sure a little, but that core couldn't get them out of the first round.
And again why is everyone thinking its nuts that I think Dieng is a better value and use the saved assets else where? Instead of calling it crazy, how about you explain your reasoning why you don't agree or are we turning into the comments section on espn.com?
I won't comment about Dieng as to me that's an absurd debate and not anything to do with Love.The Mort Report said:
I will however state my opinions.....
1. The "salary cap" has absolutely zero bearing on this trade or any future moves with the Celtics. If repeating this 9,000 times isn't enough I'll repeat it 9,001. We would NOT have to fill the roster will min-salary players as we have the existing salary slots of Bass, Green, Bogans hold of $4.5, etc), Wallace, and Rondo. The luxury tax "could" be in play for next season however Wyc has exhibited the willingness to pay the tax for a contender.....and it will be increasing over the next 2 years. Ainge will have tremendous flexibility moving forward based on how he has staggered these salary slots to expire each year.
2. Asik will cost very little. The primary "asset" he would cost is the TPE that will expire if not utilized thus no longer rendering it an asset. He has no role in Houston and they are motivated to move him.
3. Acquiring Love is making it clear that this is his team and the eventual trade of Rondo will follow shortly so you're not looking at a Love/Asik/Rondo Big Three. Asik is a limited player but an ideal fit next to Love while filling a MAJOR hole we had last year.
HomeRunBaker said:
And as a starter he played 15 games where he averages 12.2 pts, 12 rebs, 1.7 blocks, and 0.9 steals.
If I were the Timberwolves it absolutely would cost a someone a mid first round pick at least to get Dieng at this point.
On the other hand I am not sure if i were the Celtics I would give up an extra #1 to get him included in the deal
This is really key for all the moving pieces. Asik probably costs them the TPE and a future protected 1st/unprotected 2nd (the Jordan Crawford package). While he has a big salary number next season, he requires no 2015 commitment. That leaves DA flexibility to get Love re-signed for the max and then pick and choose which of Rondo, Green, Asik have value moving forward (and cap space plus future picks if you need to replace those positions).HomeRunBaker said:
The Celtics had a bench forward guy named Brandon Hunter who had a great 5-10 games until opponents got a line on him and made the necessary adjustments. I take those numbers with a grain of salt.BigMike said:
I'm not saying Dieng is completely useless going forward but he'll be 25 this season and not a guy you give up actual assets for by any means.
The forum's namesake, the inimitable Mark Blount, parlayed a good 15 games into a fat multi-year contract. In 20 years, we may be posting in Gorgui Dieng's Champagne Room, or something.
IT was, he said he wanted Dieng in the deal, but he realized it was unlikely. Then he said that for the cost, he'd almost prefer to spend a lot less to get Dieng on a cheap salary for 4 years than Love at a higher cost and a max extension. It wasn't crazy at all.Devizier said:
HRB jumped on it but it wasn't TMR saying Dieng was better than Love, or even a major building block, but rather he was an interesting player who is locked up and might be interesting to trade for if the price was right.
He said Dieng was the better value and asking for a debate as to why Love has more value in a trade then Dieng. It was a Dieng rather than Love debate he was posing.Cellar-Door said:
For what it is worth there will be a Globe story tomorrow that Kevin Love has been in Boston this weekend. Obviously he declined to speak to reporters.
Yeah he was at The Greatest Bar last night having his pic taken and plastered all over social media. He leaked it out that he'd be at Del Frisco's tonight and the Sox game on Sunday.Cellar-Door said:
Where there is smoke there is a ton of fire!
HomeRunBaker said:
Ok you are insane to think that giving a guy a max contract (that you also have to give up assets for) has no impact on the salary cap unless he is the only guy on the roster. Just rounding, the cap will be 60 million. Love gets 20, Rondo just this year 13, Asik 10. Then Green at 9, Bass 7, Wallace 10. That is 69 mil right there, before Rondo's raise. Max 74 million. So Anthony's 3.8 and Bradley's QO of 3.5, tell me where they have money. And this all includes none of the Sully's, Olynyks salaries. if you can show me a salary structure that works Id really like to see it
HomeRunBaker said:
For 4 years of control of a guy that CAN be a rim protector at say a 1/4 of the cost of Love, who is going to be a max salary player? That is harder to find than a scoring PF. If thats what you think the Celts need then we should just draft Randle
Agree and disagree. The only impact comes for signing a major FA. They will probably be limited to trades or exceptions until 2016-17.The Mort Report said:
Also in your counting you have at least 1 player who will have to go out in trade match for Love. (Probably Bass).
They are fine for staying under the tax line though, at least for this season, even with a trade for Asik.
The Mort Report said:
Yeah, anytime you can get a 24 year old averaging 5 ppg and 5 rpg instead of a 25 year old averaging 26 ppg and 13 rpg, you've gotta take it. If you want a scoring PF who averages 25+ with shooting percentages of .46/.38/.82, you can just find one in the draft. Because they grow on trees. Not like a rim protector who has a grand total of 50 blocks in his NBA career. Those guys are hard to find.
Cellar-Door said:
Its more likely to be Sully than Bass. And we are talking about 8 of 15 on the roster
Euclis20 said:
Again you are arguing without taking into account cost to acquire. And look at Dieng's averages when he got minutes the last 20 games or so(I cant seem to find the data). Love has had 50 blocks in one season, and since then never topped out at 35.
The Mort Report said:
The two don't belong in the same conversation. One is a 3-time all-star, a top ten player in 3 of the last 4 years (not counting the year he was hurt). He probably won't be the best player on a championship team, but he can certainly be a #2 on a great team. The other might have some value based on a 20 game stretch, which is too small of a sample size to say whether or not he might actually be a decent starter.
The two are so far apart production-wise that value doesn't enter into it. A honda civic might cost around $18k, while a lamborghini might cost close to $200k. If the goal is just to have a car to drive to work, the civic is more valuable, but if your goal is to win a race? It isn't a contest. If your goal is to get a player who can play some minutes and might be a decent starter based on less than a quarter season sample, then sure, go nuts over Dieng. If your goal is to win a championship, Love is the sort of player you pay for and build around. You can fill your team with players who are valuable, but you win championships by acquiring all-stars.
*edit-I mean, if Dieng is actually the guy who averaged 12/12/1.7 in 32 mpg as a starter, then he's got some value. Still not enough to be in the same conversation with the guy averaging 26/13, but actual value. Unfortunately, he's already 24, and he put up those numbers in just 15 games. SSS. Btw, the only players who have averaged 26+ ppg and 12+ rpg in a single season in the last 20 years are Shaq (4x), Love (2x), and....that's it. In the last 50 years, it's been done 51 times by 16 different players, 13 of whom are in the HOF. The three that aren't are Shaq, Love, and Spencer Haywood. I think you are simultaneously overvaluing Dieng and severely undervaluing Love. You have to pay for talent. Love is the guy you pay for.
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