How many players have played against LeBron that are under 21? This is a stupid stat.
Celtics vs. the Lebronaires
- Thread starter DJnVa
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Tatum is awesome, but there can't be many 20 year olds who were in a position to do that.
So, are we lining up for a herculean effort from LBJ and the supporting cast doing their part to force a game 7, only to hear Scott Foster's music on Sunday afternoon? Or, does the fact that he worked game 4 keep him away for the rest of the series?
Taking a quick look at rosters and no guarantees of accuracy with regards to calculating age, here's my rough estimation of the list of players under 21 who actually had a chance (i.e., they played substantial minutes) get a better game score than LBJ when playing against him.
In addition to JB and JT:
2005-06: I think Darko was under 21 when the series was played so I'll include him but I don't believe he got enough minutes
2010-11: Jrue Holiday
2013-14: Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
2014-15: Marcus Smart
2016-17: Myles Turner
Some other notables:
2006-07: Andray Blatche (remember him?) was 21
2007-08: Rondo was 22
2009-10: Derrick Rose was 21
Avery Bradley was injured when he was 20 and played when he was 21
Of course if Bruno Cabaclo couldn't do it, no mere mortal should be able to do it.
As far as I'm aware there is no rule preventing refs from working multiple games in a series; I think there are something like 20 refs assigned to the conference finals, so by definition at least one will have to ref multiple games if it goes 7. If that one is Scott Foster, well...that would suck.
yeah, Embiid watching and posting about basketball is a bit like diving into all the social media posts and pictures of your hot ex's wedding. He's commenting on all the dresses, judging how the bar is stocked, assessing the centerpieces. Yeah, sure, you're emotionally involved, you might have a rooting interest... but you're not doing yourself any good by immersing yourself in the past, man, nevermind a party you weren't invited to.
Turnovers were a big part but the C's shot the ball from 3, especially in the first half when they built up the lead way better than the Cavs.
JR Smith 1-6
G Hill 1-5
J Green 3-4
J Clarkson 3-10
Cavs overall 9-34 from 3
C's 13-39 (1-7 Rozier)
The work in practice on this video came up big time last night. There were multiple occasions that Tatum fronted LeBron and either stole the ball or made it difficult.
Neat video. Apparently it was taken during training camp (October 2017) not the 16-game winning streak.
To add to this...here's how role players played for Cleveland tonight:
Hill: 7-12, 20 points
Green: 4-10, 14 points
Nance: 5-5, 10 points
None of these guys is really very good. Not awful but not very good. But they go 16-27 (59.3%) and score 44 points. Yes LeBron was amazing, but they don't win unless these guys play their asses off.
Once again, the "role players play well at home but not on the road" mantra is proven true.
Posting here from the gamethread - not for my stupid attempt at insight but for Danny Chau's article on the Rockets/Warriors game because his point applies in this series too. These teams are killing each other on each possession and nobody can surprise anyone. If you have a superstar like LeBron, he can still win because he always has an advantage over his defender. Btw, the article is a must-read imho.
The Cavs essentially took Horford out of the game by doubling him. To their credit, their defense was very good and they really didn't give the Celtics open looks so Horford was forced to take tough shots rather than kick it out to the open man. Not you but a lot of folks look at the game and simply say "guy X" sucks because he didn't make a basket or made a bad pass. But if you read Danny Chau's write up on the Houston/GS series he nails it. By the time you get here, these teams are beating the shit out of each other on every possession and there isnt a player on the court who doesn't know what the other team is trying to do with each set. So guys then have to somehow execute in the face of the toughest defense they have seen all year. Easier for guys like LeBron than it is a young player or a guy like Horford who really isn't a scorer in the purest sense. That doesnt mean he cant play better. Its just not entirely the case of him being "average" or having LeBron in his head.
BTW, I encourage everyone to read the article at that link. It nails the essence of these games and for a series where most of us are a bit more dispassionate.
The Cavs essentially took Horford out of the game by doubling him. To their credit, their defense was very good and they really didn't give the Celtics open looks so Horford was forced to take tough shots rather than kick it out to the open man. Not you but a lot of folks look at the game and simply say "guy X" sucks because he didn't make a basket or made a bad pass. But if you read Danny Chau's write up on the Houston/GS series he nails it. By the time you get here, these teams are beating the shit out of each other on every possession and there isnt a player on the court who doesn't know what the other team is trying to do with each set. So guys then have to somehow execute in the face of the toughest defense they have seen all year. Easier for guys like LeBron than it is a young player or a guy like Horford who really isn't a scorer in the purest sense. That doesnt mean he cant play better. Its just not entirely the case of him being "average" or having LeBron in his head.
BTW, I encourage everyone to read the article at that link. It nails the essence of these games and for a series where most of us are a bit more dispassionate.
Love Brad, but I think this loss is on him. Marcus Morris played very poorly and the Celtics got absolutely destroyed on the glass. Meanwhile after Love went down Baynes sat a lot and played only 18 minutes. Morris was useless vs LeBron. You swap Baynes and Morris and the Celtics have a good shot in this one.
It's funny because my friend who is a low-level college coach (he knows his sh*t) and big-time Cavs' fan was livid that the Cavs were doubling Horford tonight.
Yup.
On the one hand, I completely agree that this was a winnable game. On the other, it’s hard to think LeBron has yet another one of these efforts in him. Yeah, I know he hasn’t failed yet but this seemed like it took a lot out of him.
I like our chances.
(That said, more fucking Baynes, please.)
On the one hand, I completely agree that this was a winnable game. On the other, it’s hard to think LeBron has yet another one of these efforts in him. Yeah, I know he hasn’t failed yet but this seemed like it took a lot out of him.
I like our chances.
(That said, more fucking Baynes, please.)
I think Love going down must’ve really thrown Brad for a loop.
Re. Lebron, I’ve been thinking a lot recently, and this may not be a remotely original thought, that what the guy has missed during his career is a mentor. I know we all hate the guy around here but as good as Lebron is, how much better would he be if he’d had Phil Jackson coaching him? Spoelstra was better than I expected him to be. But Lebron has never, to my knowledge, had a guy say “no” to him since he’s been 20 probably. He’s really only had a half dozen years in his 15 year career where he’s had a worthy supporting cast. And as Windhorst has said, wherever the guy goes drama inevitably follows his organization.
I don’t say any of this to criticize Lebron. The guy is the best player I’ve watched live. That he’s been able to be as good a player as he is and won championships—coming out of high school, handling all the pressure he has (including PR mistakes like The Decision)—while actually seeming to be a good person who tries to do the right thing socially is a credit to him and him alone.
But that’s the problem: he’s done it all alone. We’ve all heard him lavish praise on Brad and Pop. And I can’t help but think how much better his career and *teams* would have been if he had pushed Cleveland to give someone like Phil the Godfather offer after his run in LA ended. And I say all this absolutely hating the shit out of Phil Jackson and his stupid fucking beard.
Every time I think about him leaving Cleveland a second time, or hear a turn of phrase in a Doris Burke interview that seems a *bit* too self-congratulatory, or wonder why George Hill is playing alongside him instead of Kyrie Irving, I think about this.
Never having had a mentor seems to me like the obvious missing piece in his story. And honestly, it’s kind of a shame.
Re. Lebron, I’ve been thinking a lot recently, and this may not be a remotely original thought, that what the guy has missed during his career is a mentor. I know we all hate the guy around here but as good as Lebron is, how much better would he be if he’d had Phil Jackson coaching him? Spoelstra was better than I expected him to be. But Lebron has never, to my knowledge, had a guy say “no” to him since he’s been 20 probably. He’s really only had a half dozen years in his 15 year career where he’s had a worthy supporting cast. And as Windhorst has said, wherever the guy goes drama inevitably follows his organization.
I don’t say any of this to criticize Lebron. The guy is the best player I’ve watched live. That he’s been able to be as good a player as he is and won championships—coming out of high school, handling all the pressure he has (including PR mistakes like The Decision)—while actually seeming to be a good person who tries to do the right thing socially is a credit to him and him alone.
But that’s the problem: he’s done it all alone. We’ve all heard him lavish praise on Brad and Pop. And I can’t help but think how much better his career and *teams* would have been if he had pushed Cleveland to give someone like Phil the Godfather offer after his run in LA ended. And I say all this absolutely hating the shit out of Phil Jackson and his stupid fucking beard.
Every time I think about him leaving Cleveland a second time, or hear a turn of phrase in a Doris Burke interview that seems a *bit* too self-congratulatory, or wonder why George Hill is playing alongside him instead of Kyrie Irving, I think about this.
Never having had a mentor seems to me like the obvious missing piece in his story. And honestly, it’s kind of a shame.
LeBron’s greatness did not win this game for Cleveland; because he’s been great in every game but Game 5. The big difference was his supporting cast; particularly Green and Hill, coming up big and giving LeBron some help. Cleveland’s bench was huge, and it wasn’t just LeBron spoon feeding them either; Hill in particular made some very difficult shots tonight and both he and Green were aggressive and attacked the basket. If the Cavs are getting 70 from their role players it’s going to be very difficult for Boston to win.
Its a fascinating adjustment (as a side note, I would love to know what your friend thinks of Lue - imho he and his staff have done a decent job in this series, Semi/Korver drama aside) because everyone knows he isn't a scorer but it seemed to disrupt his best offensive skill of being a facilitator. He just didn't look comfortable out there tonight on offense or defense and I suspect the extra pressure on him when the Celtics had the ball played a role.
I was thinking about this today.. I don’t think he’s ever grown up.. as you said he’s been handed everything his whole life and never went to college.. at times he just seems like an 18 year old trapped in a 30-something body.
I agree with you that it was disruptive but I doubt it's nearly as effective in Boston on Sunday.
He hates Lue with 1000 burning suns. His biggest complaint is his lineups (and lack of Korver/Love screening for one another and not increasing Hill's usage rate) and thought that Love going down tonight was a blessing but thinks Stevens will adjust if Love is out on Sunday and Lue will not until five minutes left in the 4th. He's basically all in on James having to do it all on Sunday night.
Yeah that was weird.. marcus squared played a ton of time tonite it seemed when neither of them had it. And the celts were playing great with two big men.. maybe in game seven the stars play long minutes..
Primarily, he hates Green + Thompson together and thinks Clarkson should never see the Garden court.
That makes sense and I agree with you that regardless of how they play Horford, he will be better the next game.
RE: Lue, I think your friend's criticism makes a ton of sense - I also wonder if Lue (or whomever is calling the shots) tends to have a really short leash for a guy like Hill who can look like a very good player on a night like tonight but struggles on others while being a turnstile, at his age, on defense. It could be anything though including LeBron not liking certain actions or line-ups for whatever reason.
Its easy to pile on Lue but the thing we don't know is how team dynamics affect his line-ups, sets etc. In some ways, his job is completely different than a Popovich, a (current era) Spoelstra, a Stevens or a Snyder in the sense that they seem to have most of the decision making power vs their respective teams' stars. Its hard to say how much LeBron influences his coaching but its a fair bet that he has outsized power there relative to most, if not all, other players in the league.
Edit: I agree on Clarkson. Someone tried to make an argument to me that he just needs good coaching and that may be the case - it would be fascinating to see how he might work with more structure. Regardless, the guy currently is essentially Marcus Smart without the defense and handles.
Yeah that's where it gets confusing because he's always crediting James for certain in-game tactics such as calling out the Celtics sets and especially calling out their BLOBs and SLOBs based merely on where the Celtics line up (and he discredits Lue for this claiming Lue has no clue). So, does James also dictate on-floor personnel and offensive sets or actions? I don't know. I'll ask him what he thinks.
FWIW, and I think we'd agree is that he is adamant that Lebron is worth five Brads, which is to take nothing away from Brad or an NBA coach's influence on the game. It's just that's how much being the best player on the floor (and one who really knows his opposition well) is worth.
As disappointing as that efforts was. They call the foul on Nance when he flattened tatum and mortally wounded Lebron, Celtice are down 5middle of the 4th. Way Lebron was playing maybe nothing can be done, but they were in it.
My point is I am very confident they win Sunday.
My point is I am very confident they win Sunday.
Has anyone seen a stat yet looking at the last time a playoff series was tied 3-3 and the closest game was decided by a nine-point margin? That seems bizarre to me, that we've basically had six one-sided games and nothing has even sniffed overtime.
Also I've been watching Lebron all series, and I know it shouldn't come as a surprise, but I'm still amazed at the incredible ability he has to finish around the rim, no matter what obstacles are in the way. It's like you could shoot a cannonball point-blank through his chest and his disembodied arms would find a way to flip the ball up and in. I think a big key to game 7 will be for Brad to find a way to really make him work hard and wear him down, because he clearly is going to try to go into superhero mode. They gotta make sure his legs are water when the fourth quarter starts.
The Celtics spent a whole quarter taking the first available shot the could find, early in the clock, with zero attempt to move the ball and create offense. They were incredibly sloppy with the ball. Cleveland's role players didn't play well in some sort of vacuum - they were made to look good by the indifferent play of the Celtics. That they did this after actually playing a strong first quarter is staggering.
Game 7 isn't going to win itself just because it happens to be in Boston. They need to actually show up and compete, not for a quarter or two but for the full 48.
Game 7 isn't going to win itself just because it happens to be in Boston. They need to actually show up and compete, not for a quarter or two but for the full 48.
They just need to play faster. It’s simple and dumb but when you don’t move the ball or yourselves the offense falls apart. Anticipate the double, have outlets ready, find the open man. Need to keep the defense moving. The only time Cleveland’s scrubs look good on that end is when they’re allowed time to just man up with one guy and don’t have to make decisions.
It was Smart and Morris mainly.. as soon as they got in they shot first on pretty much five or six possessions in a row.
Losing the 2nd quarter by 18 killed them last night. They scored at will the other 3 quarters.
I’m confident Hill and Green won’t repeat their offensive efforts in Boston.
The best part of Game 6 was they kept it close enough to make Lebron work until the last minute. More wear and tear on the body.
I’m confident Hill and Green won’t repeat their offensive efforts in Boston.
The best part of Game 6 was they kept it close enough to make Lebron work until the last minute. More wear and tear on the body.
Absolutely. Jaylen Brown is the only one who played with any decisiveness on offense last night. A moment's hesitation is all the defense needs to collapse and clog lanes, which is exactly what gave them fits versus MIL.
I'm going to be pissed off when after 6 shitty games game 7 is a 1 or 2 possession deal. Let's win this thing by 10 as has happened all series. Please.
I was stunned at how bad Tatum looked. I really thought last night would be where he took over
He looked overwhelmed by the moment.
He looked overwhelmed by the moment.
It’s almost as if, at times, they look like an overachieving group of young guys and role players
I mean there’s been two possessions this entire series that’s been true, but keep doing you Felger Jr
This seems like the opposite of what I think. He has never really acted like a 18 year old for he never had the chance. It's like he skipped adolescence and arrived as a 30 year old man.