Celtics trade rumors (founded, unfounded)

E5 Yaz

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Okay, now there might be something about to happen. Chris Broussard just said there's no trade even close.
 

BigSoxFan

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Blakely reporting that the Celts still want Okafor.
I bet they do but I would venture to guess that Philly is insisting on Brooklyn pick plus a player (probably a guard like Smart or Rozier) and Ainge is saying "no thanks".
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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I bet they do but I would venture to guess that Philly is insisting on Brooklyn pick plus a player (probably a guard like Smart or Rozier) and Ainge is saying "no thanks".
Nope. Not even a "no thanks". Just hang up before they even finish the word "Brooklyn"
 

HomeRunBaker

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Blakely reporting that the Celts still want Okafor.
After last winters trade deadline I expected Okafor to be a Celtic by training camp. I still expect this to happen once both sides cave some.

There is no chance that Colangelo is holding out for a Nets pick. I don't believe that for a second.
 

luckiestman

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After last winters trade deadline I expected Okafor to be a Celtic by training camp. I still expect this to happen once both sides cave some.

There is no chance that Colangelo is holding out for a Nets pick. I don't believe that for a second.
But what do you think Colangelo wants? Smart + Cs 2018 first?
 

HomeRunBaker

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But what do you think Colangelo wants? Smart + Cs 2018 first?
Young veteran stability. He knows the Nets picks are off limits in an Okafor deal. Bradley/Smart seem to be the obvious choices then the discussion goes to which side receives additional assets which is where it gets tricky. I expect Bradley to be moved within next 12 months one way or another with his massive raise the first one coming due.
 

ColonelMustard

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Young veteran stability. He knows the Nets picks are off limits in an Okafor deal. Bradley/Smart seem to be the obvious choices then the discussion goes to which side receives additional assets which is where it gets tricky. I expect Bradley to be moved within next 12 months one way or another with his massive raise the first one coming due.
I love the idea that Bradley + Rozier could get it done (it's summer league and what does that mean). But since I love it, that's probably not a fair trade. What's a fair price?
 

HomeRunBaker

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I love the idea that Bradley + Rozier could get it done (it's summer league and what does that mean). But since I love it, that's probably not a fair trade. What's a fair price?
I would never include Rozier.....one of the reasons Bradley is replaceable is due to Rozier's presence. He's on a cheap deal and looks like a spitting image of Reggie Jackson's growth curve with similar games.

Being impartial I'd say that swapping Okafor and Bradley helps both teams lineup balance with similar on-court production albeit in very different ways. Anything else to me would Be fodder.
 

ColonelMustard

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I would never include Rozier.....one of the reasons Bradley is replaceable is due to Rozier's presence. He's on a cheap deal and looks like a spitting image of Reggie Jackson's growth curve with similar games.

Being impartial I'd say that swapping Okafor and Bradley helps both teams lineup balance with similar on-court production albeit in very different ways. Anything else to me would Be fodder.
Okafor is signed for another 3 years. Bradley is a great player but I think Okafor is a superior player. I think you would have to do Bradley + some asset.

Rozier (the 16th pick) was taken the same year as Okafer (3rd overall). If someone takes 1 year of Bradley to go from the 2015 go to the 3rd round pick who put up 17 points and 8 rebs in 53 NBA games, I easily pull that trigger.

Even if Okafor was a slightly inferior player than Bradley, I would still due this all day.

As an aside, I also expected Rozier to play back-up point guard not shooting guard (as seen in SL but don't know Celtics future plans)

TLDR Rozier (3 years) + Bradley (1 years) < Okafer (3 years)
 
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Papelbon's Poutine

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Yeah, that's bad math. Like really bad.

Edit: to be more clear, your conclusion is not accurate. Okafor is not a more valuable player than Bradley. Their control is obviously quite different, but almost any metric values Bradley far more than Jahlil. And that's long before adding Rozier into the equation, which balances out some of that control.
 

southshoresoxfan

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I just dont want Okafor. Why make this move? His game is rapidly becoming obsolete in the NBA. Teams will just put him in wing pick and roll coverages all day long and he provides no rim.protection or spacing on offense.

I wouldnt trade a first team.all.nba defender w a 2/16 contract for him nor a backup PG who you need to be a ballhandler on the second unit for a dinosaur. No no no
 

pjheff

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In terms of contracts and control, wouldn't Noel be the more natural return for Bradley? The Sixers get a 3 and D role player to complement Simmons' playmaking skills. The Celtics pick up a younger rim defender who can replace Amir Johnson should his contract be used as the salary ballast in another move.
 

bowiac

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I would not give up any significant asset for Okafor. I'm still suspect of Ainge's eye for college talent, but apart from David Lee, almost all his acquisitions of players already in the NBA have worked out. I'm optimistic there's nothing to see here.
 

Auger34

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I would never include Rozier.....one of the reasons Bradley is replaceable is due to Rozier's presence. He's on a cheap deal and looks like a spitting image of Reggie Jackson's growth curve with similar games.

Being impartial I'd say that swapping Okafor and Bradley helps both teams lineup balance with similar on-court production albeit in very different ways. Anything else to me would Be fodder.
I am thinking Avery Bradley and Demetrius Jackson for Okafor and Korkmaz. Celtics get another "draft and stash" and the Sixers get two guards to fit in with all of their front court players
 

nighthob

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In terms of contracts and control, wouldn't Noel be the more natural return for Bradley? The Sixers get a 3 and D role player to complement Simmons' playmaking skills. The Celtics pick up a younger rim defender who can replace Amir Johnson should his contract be used as the salary ballast in another move.
Noel would interfere with their plans next summer because it's free agent time. Teams like picking up their big men in transactions that cost nothing but money, it's the reason for the disconnect between trade value and free agent deals. So acquiring Noel would mean Boston tying up a max/near max slot next summer for a roleplayer when what they want is stars. The only center that I would have any interest in on the Philly roster is Embiid, because when healthy he looked like he could play the modern game (the when healthy is obviously a huge caveat) and he doesn't hit free agency until the summer of 2018.

Philly can keep Eddy Curry v2.0. There's zero reason to save divisional competitors from their costly mistakes.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I don't envy JerCo's position regarding these 5 bigs. It is so clear that he has to trade somebody that he openly admitted he needs to trade somebody. But the valuation is funky because Noel is an impending RFA but also the only defender of the bunch, Okafor's star has fallen a bit, and there's no way of knowing right now which of the bigs will be able to play with the others in a way that makes any kind of sense.

The C's meanwhile are under no such urgency to make a deal. I don't see anybody here shedding tears should Okafor end up somewhere else. Ainge is playing it just right, assuming he is interested in dealing with Philly. They will be the ones that have to swallow the bitter pill if they don't want to break camp with that front court mess.
 

pjheff

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Noel would interfere with their plans next summer because it's free agent time.
Would Noel's cap hold as a restricted free agent be significantly higher that Bradley's 2017-2018 salary? Couldn't they potentially sign a FA next summer and then use Noel's Bird Rights to go above the cap to extend him?
 

nighthob

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Noel was a high pick, so his cap hold is considerably larger than someone under contract would be, which leaves us at Embiid and Okafor, and I'd much rather the former. To be clear I expect a trade before the deadline in February and fully expect Bradley to be one of the outbound pieces, so I don't think his salary on the books is going to be an issue as such.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I just dont want Okafor. Why make this move? His game is rapidly becoming obsolete in the NBA. Teams will just put him in wing pick and roll coverages all day long and he provides no rim.protection or spacing on offense.

I wouldnt trade a first team.all.nba defender w a 2/16 contract for him nor a backup PG who you need to be a ballhandler on the second unit for a dinosaur. No no no
I don't understand the spacing or "his obsolete game" concerns as Okafor already showed a mid-range face-up jumper as a rookie which is likely able to expand further since he is still 20-years old with good mechanics. Defensively his feet are fairly nimble and I'd like to see him in a functional system outside of his 19-year old rookie season to write him off. This is far from a finished product.

I mean he was a scoring machine once Philly traded for Ish Smith and he was able to actually get the ball in his spots.....I can't even imagine the heat Ainge and Jaylen are going to face when he DOESN'T even show nearly this much in his rookie year. Yikes!!
 

heavyde050

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I don't understand the spacing or "his obsolete game" concerns as Okafor already showed a mid-range face-up jumper as a rookie which is likely able to expand further since he is still 20-years old with good mechanics. Defensively his feet are fairly nimble and I'd like to see him in a functional system outside of his 19-year old rookie season to write him off. This is far from a finished product.

I mean he was a scoring machine once Philly traded for Ish Smith and he was able to actually get the ball in his spots.....I can't even imagine the heat Ainge and Jaylen are going to face when he DOESN'T even show nearly this much in his rookie year. Yikes!!
But wasn't Okafor putting up stats on a garbage team that was actively trying to lose to ensure the best odds at a #1 pick.

It isn't really fair to compare the situations that Okafor and Jaylen have in their respective rookie years.
 

Cellar-Door

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I don't want anything to do with Okafor.
I don't think his offensive game is obsolete, it has use in a bench player, and if his jumper improves he could have a good offensive game.
His defense is obsolete. He is abysmal in space, I'd honestly say he might have been the worst in space defensive big man who got major minutes in the NBA last year.
The other real concern for me is that he's a shitty rebounder. You need to do at least 2 of 3 things (score efficiently, rebound, defend) league average or better from the in my mind to be a starter on a decent team. Okafor can do one pretty well with the upside to do it very well. He sucks at the other two.
 

HomeRunBaker

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But wasn't Okafor putting up stats on a garbage team that was actively trying to lose to ensure the best odds at a #1 pick.

It isn't really fair to compare the situations that Okafor and Jaylen have in their respective rookie years.
Who was actively trying to lose? The players sure weren't. That was the management putting that product on the floor. From what I saw having so many non-NBA players on the floor with Okafor negatively affected his performance. Despite this hindrance I was impressed by his rookie year unlike many others here. He'd immediately be one of our two best shot creators on the roster which is still a huge hole in our lineup.
 

cheech13

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Would Noel's cap hold as a restricted free agent be significantly higher that Bradley's 2017-2018 salary? Couldn't they potentially sign a FA next summer and then use Noel's Bird Rights to go above the cap to extend him?
Noel's cap hold is only $5.8 million, which is less than what Bradley makes. So, yes, trading for Noel actually opens up more cap space for next summer should they choose to go that route.
 

Cellar-Door

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Noel's cap hold is only $5.8 million, which is less than what Bradley makes. So, yes, trading for Noel actually opens up more cap space for next summer should they choose to go that route.
$5.8M is his qualifying offer not his cap hold.
His cap hold is: $10,961,225 because he's a Bird free agent coming off a rookie deal so his hold in 250% of his previous year salary. Cap holds for RFA are always significantly higher than their QO.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I've been convinced that Noel is virtually untradeable (for anything reasonable) as an expiring contract due a massive and possibly unjust raise. I haven't seen anything or heard any proposed deal by any team that makes me reconsider my position.
 

heavyde050

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Who was actively trying to lose? The players sure weren't. That was the management putting that product on the floor. From what I saw having so many non-NBA players on the floor with Okafor negatively affected his performance. Despite this hindrance I was impressed by his rookie year unlike many others here. He'd immediately be one of our two best shot creators on the roster which is still a huge hole in our lineup.
I understand what you are saying; I am just trying to point out a difference in situations (not to mention positions and team responsibilities).

Of course the players tried, but management set them up to fail.

He can score, but I really don't see Okafor being much different than Al Jefferson. I think Okafor is a good trade target if the price is right.

I am just not ready to say definitively that Okafor will be a better NBA player than Jaylen in three years as each player has shortcomings to address (we aren't talking about Towns here).
 

HomeRunBaker

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He can score, but I really don't see Okafor being much different than Al Jefferson. I think Okafor is a good trade target if the price is right.

I am just not ready to say definitively that Okafor will be a better NBA player than Jaylen in three years as each player has shortcomings to address (we aren't talking about Towns here).
Yeah that is a fair comp however you have to factor that Okafor at 20 is Jefferson at 28. He has room to grow as he began to show last year with his perimeter face up offense. I certainly don't want to empty the farm to acquire Okafor as I feel we can receive a better value on a cost-controlled contract for 3 years to replace Sullinger. I also don't need him to be a better player than Brown in 3 years......I hope he isn't but that really doesn't have anything to do with acquiring him.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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The best thing I could say about an Okafor trade is that Ainge would almost certainly come out the winner value-wise given Philly's dire situation and Danny's war chest. Then again, Okafor was supposedly a great value pick but a year later his team is dying to pawn him off.
 
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HomeRunBaker

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The best thing I could say about an Onafor trade is that Ainge would almost certainly come out the winner value-wise given Philly's dire situation and Danny's war chest. Then again, Okafor was supposedly a great value pick but a year later his team is dying to pawn him off.
Yes, one reason I want him is that the cost for a talent like his will be relatively inexpensive while receiving immediately production on his rookie deal which isn't always the case. Philly is dying to trade him off because they have 3 centers......one is untradeable due to not having played in nearly 3 years and the other virtually untradeable due to his contract situation......not because they don't like him. He's the only movable one of the three.
 

Cellar-Door

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Yeah that is a fair comp however you have to factor that Okafor at 20 is Jefferson at 28. He has room to grow as he began to show last year with his perimeter face up offense. I certainly don't want to empty the farm to acquire Okafor as I feel we can receive a better value on a cost-controlled contract for 3 years to replace Sullinger. I also don't need him to be a better player than Brown in 3 years......I hope he isn't but that really doesn't have anything to do with acquiring him.
Huh? Okafor right now is not anywhere near as good a player as Al Jefferson was at age 28.
 

ALiveH

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okafor is a really challenging player to value b/c he is young, has loads of offensive potential but is so so so atrocious defensively. And, he was in a really bad dysfunctional situation so it's a tough guess how much of that is fixable with better coaching & environment. given the youth, risk, uncertainty & potential, my best guess is he is most comparable to a mid-lottery 1st, i.e., if I were Ainge and were offered him for Jaylen brown straight up I'd probably say no, but not before giving it serious consideration & getting Brad's opinion on which player he liked better.
 

bowiac

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Yes, one reason I want him is that the cost for a talent like his will be relatively inexpensive while receiving immediately production on his rookie deal which isn't always the case. Philly is dying to trade him off because they have 3 centers......one is untradeable due to not having played in nearly 3 years and the other virtually untradeable due to his contract situation......not because they don't like him. He's the only movable one of the three.
Sorry, just so I understand understand your position, you think the Celtics would be better in the short term with Okafor (i.e., during his rookie deal)? We all agree he's young, and could improve, but do you think he's an NBA contributor right now on the Celtics, or just someone they'd play for development reasons.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Sorry, just so I understand understand your position, you think the Celtics would be better in the short term with Okafor (i.e., during his rookie deal)? We all agree he's young, and could improve, but do you think he's an NBA contributor right now on the Celtics, or just someone they'd play for development reasons.
Yes I feel it would make a tremendous gain to our roster balance in replacing Sullinger's scoring while providing a greater threat offensively while being on a rookie deal for 3 years. It's my opinion that his production was hindered by the Philly structure and not the product of empty numbers. He made tremendous improvement as the year went on despite the obstacles he faced. In a structures system he will be really good and right away.

I feel Bradley is moved in the next 12 months regardless due to his massive raise coming due and what I feel has been a real rise by Rozier last season and into this summer.
 

ColonelMustard

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Yeah, that's bad math. Like really bad.

Edit: to be more clear, your conclusion is not accurate. Okafor is not a more valuable player than Bradley. Their control is obviously quite different, but almost any metric values Bradley far more than Jahlil. And that's long before adding Rozier into the equation, which balances out some of that control.
I'm sorry, what? I think some of your assumptions are really bad.
1) Bradley is leaving next year (almost 100% certainty)
2) The Celtics are playing for the 2017 - 2020 seasons

If we can't agree on that then we are talking past each other. Apples to oranges you can't compare Okafor and Bradley but given the Celtics needs and the contract situation for both, Okafor is a better fit. Whatever you think of his overall game, Okafor's offensive game is pretty good. He has a high FG% of 50% and his rate stats are really good, 17.5 ppg and 7 rpg, even given his high usage.

I would never include Rozier.....one of the reasons Bradley is replaceable is due to Rozier's presence. He's on a cheap deal and looks like a spitting image of Reggie Jackson's growth curve with similar games.

Being impartial I'd say that swapping Okafor and Bradley helps both teams lineup balance with similar on-court production albeit in very different ways. Anything else to me would Be fodder.
What are you optimistic projections for Rozier? I think we need to agree that his stats from Summer league should be thrown out. Is it his mechanics, shot creation? His shooting percentage should also be thrown out based on the level of defense he was up against. I like Rozier but I think he puts up middle tier single digit averages across the season on the second team.

I'll defer to Angie, Brad and you but in my very humble opinion if it takes Bradley and Rozier's summer stats to get it done - I pull the trigger.

okafor is a really challenging player to value b/c he is young, has loads of offensive potential but is so so so atrocious defensively. And, he was in a really bad dysfunctional situation so it's a tough guess how much of that is fixable with better coaching & environment. given the youth, risk, uncertainty & potential, my best guess is he is most comparable to a mid-lottery 1st, i.e., if I were Ainge and were offered him for Jaylen brown straight up I'd probably say no, but not before giving it serious consideration & getting Brad's opinion on which player he liked better.
If Jaylen has the rookie season that Okafor did (rate stats), we would be estatic. That's not to say I would trade Jaylen for Okafor. I love what I have seen out of him in SL - explosive, gets to the rim, and an aggressive alpha dog.

You can easily value what Okafor brings to the table - $10 million per year which is a good price for a back-up center. That doesn't take into account projected growth over time.
 

bowiac

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I don't think we should take it for granted that Okafor's offensive game is pretty good. Again, the Sixers context makes it tough to take at face value, but he graded out as an awful offensive player by box score metrics (BPM), plus/minus metrics (RPM, RAPM), and player tracking data (PT-PM).

To reiterate, the context makes it hard to use any of this to bury him, but at the very least, it's an open question whether he can even be a positive offensive contributor right now. Overall, even without any fancy statistical footwork, the Sixers were ten points per 100 possessions better with him off the court, and they didn't exactly have Wilt coming in to replace him.
 

Sprowl

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I don't think we should take it for granted that Okafor's offensive game is pretty good. Again, the Sixers context makes it tough to take at face value, but he graded out as an awful offensive player by box score metrics (BPM), plus/minus metrics (RPM, RAPM), and player tracking data (PT-PM).

To reiterate, the context makes it hard to use any of this to bury him, but at the very least, it's an open question whether he can even be a positive offensive contributor right now. Overall, even without any fancy statistical footwork, the Sixers were ten points per 100 possessions better with him off the court, and they didn't exactly have Wilt coming in to replace him.
Isn't the case for Okafor that he, unlike most other Celtics, can get and make his own shot inside and from mid range? A decent post game isn't as valuable as it was in the past century, but it's not useless either. Aside from Thomas and Rozier (probably), what other Celtic has the capacity to create their own shot in 2016-2017? Horford, Olynyk, Crowder, Smart and Bradley are complementary players, not creators. Brown might in a year or two, but I doubt that anyone would count on the game slowing down for a 19-year-old rookie.

Granted that Okafor's numbers from his rookie year were either disappointing or awful, but that's why he's on the market at a cheap price. The tools haven't gone away, and plenty of NBA big men had awful rookie seasons before they figured it out, or got teammates who could play to their strengths. Nowitzki was a rookie bust, but ended up the most accomplished player in a deep draft.
 

nighthob

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I'm sorry, what? I think some of your assumptions are really bad.
1) Bradley is leaving next year (almost 100% certainty)
2) The Celtics are playing for the 2017 - 2020 seasons
Let's express your thought another way, how about Boston trade Avery Bradley and Kelly Olynyk to Brooklyn for Anthony Bennet. After all, isn't it worth Avery Bradley to trade from #13 to #1 in 2013? Where someone is drafted is irrelevant. Bradley has more impact that Okafor, and honestly, I think Rozier will end up having a greater impact too.

Okafor's defensive issues are a double whammy for Boston, because Al Horford's days of being a full time PF are behind him, and Okafor is only capable of being a terrible defensive center, so he not only makes Boston's defense worse by his own inabilities, he also reduces Horford's impact on the game, and likely results in Horford being gassed at the time of the year they need him the most. Really, no thanks. Unless Philadelphia is pitching in the LA #1 to even out the deal for Bradley.
 

nighthob

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The tools haven't gone away
The problem is that the tools aren't really there, and he's the worst possible fit with Horford. If his offense showed any ability to carry the negative defensive impact maybe, but they really don't.