Celtics Summer League
- Thread starter wade boggs chicken dinner
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Not sure. Big questions are shot and handle, which are obviously significanf. Everything else is a plus. So maybe half feel, half...numb?
Pure eye test here. I know I'm the stats guy, but I'm allowed to have uninformed "I don't like this guy" opinions too, right?
But substantively, his love of going straight to the hoop with seemingly no plan is what I was getting at here. I think this is a big part of why he turns the ball over a lot. It's not that he has poor handle, it's that he doesn't look to pass the ball just about ever, and just tries to blow past guys rather than using any kind of deception to open a lane. He has great straight line speed, but that's not enough.
Just caught up on DVR. Brown did some really good stuff on D I thought. Obviously didn't love most of the rest of what he did, but he needs spacing and whatnot to maximize his game. Was good to see him run some workmanlike pnps with Semi. Keep it simple.
Speaking of Semi, he had pretty much the exact kind of game he needs to show to be a player. Banged down low as well as he could, drilled open threes. Done and done. Good to see. Missed basically anytime he dribbled or didn't shoot in rhythm. Catch and shoot son!
Nader has some Evan Turner to his game—always looks like he's out there doing a lot but in the end is really just okay. He'll hang around if he can manage consistency from range.
Not much to add on Tatum. Kid can flat out play. Would love to see a quicker trigger from deep but that'll come in the actual Boston offense where guys are wide open out there all the time. But he's fucking good, and at the very least on D I'm seeing good hands and the building blocks for adequacy. Shot free throws like they were layups. Cool customer. If he can shoot threes well I'm going to need my doc on speed dial for erections lasting longer than four hours. I don't think he was necessarily even that great tonight.
Lonzo is fine. Haven't seen a single thing to suggest the concerns about his shot were misguided. Anything on the move he looks like absolute ass putting it up. Has great vision but he's going to turn it over a lot trying to make the perfect pass. Plus plus in transition, where he's typically moving the ball up court and putting a teammate in position to score before they even realize they're open (think a QB throwing an out before the WR has even turned his head). Size is good, should do well in the post. D fits in with the rest of the Lakers.
Always good to beat the Lakers.
Speaking of Semi, he had pretty much the exact kind of game he needs to show to be a player. Banged down low as well as he could, drilled open threes. Done and done. Good to see. Missed basically anytime he dribbled or didn't shoot in rhythm. Catch and shoot son!
Nader has some Evan Turner to his game—always looks like he's out there doing a lot but in the end is really just okay. He'll hang around if he can manage consistency from range.
Not much to add on Tatum. Kid can flat out play. Would love to see a quicker trigger from deep but that'll come in the actual Boston offense where guys are wide open out there all the time. But he's fucking good, and at the very least on D I'm seeing good hands and the building blocks for adequacy. Shot free throws like they were layups. Cool customer. If he can shoot threes well I'm going to need my doc on speed dial for erections lasting longer than four hours. I don't think he was necessarily even that great tonight.
Lonzo is fine. Haven't seen a single thing to suggest the concerns about his shot were misguided. Anything on the move he looks like absolute ass putting it up. Has great vision but he's going to turn it over a lot trying to make the perfect pass. Plus plus in transition, where he's typically moving the ball up court and putting a teammate in position to score before they even realize they're open (think a QB throwing an out before the WR has even turned his head). Size is good, should do well in the post. D fits in with the rest of the Lakers.
Always good to beat the Lakers.
Apparently it's a sprain. Not sure how severe yet, but wouldn't be surprised if they hold him out of the rest of summer league.
Yeah, to build off of this I think Tatum is near NBA ready on offense, but it's going to take Jaylen at least another year to refine his offensive game. Until then, look to him to defend and play hard.
I agree with this. When I watch him, he seems to either 1) use his incredible ahtleticism to make a basket, 2) move the ball immediately to an open or semi-open temmate, or 3) force the ball and turn it over or make some ridiculous shot.
He stll needs the game to slow down. I am not sure that is going to happen though
I haven't been able to watch these summer games live, but I've been watching the highlight reels for each of the lottery picks after every game. Damn, Tatum looks good. Yeah, it's only summer league, but this is what you want him to be doing, right? Playing like he's THE star of the league. He already has two buzzer beaters. He's up for the challenge.
Oh, and I love how his mom's probably going to be at every Celtics game
Oh, and I love how his mom's probably going to be at every Celtics game
That dude's mom is gonna drive him harder than Brad...I almost feel bad for him....I haven't been able to watch these summer games live, but I've been watching the highlight reels for each of the lottery picks after every game. Damn, Tatum looks good. Yeah, it's only summer league, but this is what you want him to be doing, right? Playing like he's THE star of the league. He already has two buzzer beaters. He's up for the challenge.
Oh, and I love how his mom's probably going to be at every Celtics game
That's not what I said, though. Brown has a ways to go, will never have the offensive skills of Tatum, but it is premature to declare him a lost cause.
I believe you get an assist for a player going to the free throw line after a pass.
Trying to follow the NBA on ESPN will be impossible. Its all personality driven, right now all Ball and his father sucking all of the oxygen from the coverage. (Are they at Manzel level yet?) Today's headline is "Ball bounces back," touting his 5-13 shooting.
Quick takes from my non-expert basketball eyes. I think Fultz v Tatum is going to be close in terms of preference. I think Fultz may be more ready, but the benefit of the Lakers' first was enough to make me feel good about dropping back, and I don't have to cringe everytime Fultz does something good. Both seem like impact rookies, well above last year's class. Not disappointed we didnt get Ball. It'd be nice if Tatum didn't have to be the point forward, too, bringing the ball up the court most of the time. Good practice at dribbling, but not able to work on post up game.
Quick takes from my non-expert basketball eyes. I think Fultz v Tatum is going to be close in terms of preference. I think Fultz may be more ready, but the benefit of the Lakers' first was enough to make me feel good about dropping back, and I don't have to cringe everytime Fultz does something good. Both seem like impact rookies, well above last year's class. Not disappointed we didnt get Ball. It'd be nice if Tatum didn't have to be the point forward, too, bringing the ball up the court most of the time. Good practice at dribbling, but not able to work on post up game.
I wonder if Ray's mom is going to show up for the 10th anniversary reunionOh, and I love how his mom's probably going to be at every Celtics game
Jaylen looks to me that he's already decided which move he wants to try before he starts his move. He's also not sure how to set up his defender yet.
It's good for him to be the primary guy on this team and have the ball in his hands a lot. He's not going to get that opportunity during the season.
As for ESPN, they are so trying to sell Ball, I have to turn off he sound during the games. I've already heard Mark Jones say multiple times how great a parent Dad is. And they had an extended interview with him Friday night during the game. And last night, it was all about Magic and his thoughts on Lonzo.
They are really setting him up to fail.
As for Fultz and Tatum, thought you'd want to see this video that Fultz retweeted. (I do hope he's okay; PHI has to invest in witch doctor or something.)
So not getting SL games over here (and fed up with the highlight videos "this video is not available in your country"). How has Josh Jackson if anyone has seen him? Saw this write up on a Sun's site:
Curious because he seems like he was the most obvious alternative the C's had to Tatum once they decided to trade down.
Valleyofthesuns.com
Curious because he seems like he was the most obvious alternative the C's had to Tatum once they decided to trade down.
Tatum has been very very impressive for a 19 year old - I don't think he's had any open shots either and defenses are already collapsing/double teaming him on most occasions. In our offense he will be wide open for his jump shots and he will be open for 3s as well. I love that he and Brown have to earn their minutes - I think that is a very good thing for their long term success in the league.
Imagine Tatum after 5-6 years in the NBA - wow - could be very special.
Imagine Tatum after 5-6 years in the NBA - wow - could be very special.
He's going to leapfrog Brown very quickly, not necessarily in minutes, but in terms of role in the halfcourt offense and having plays run for him. Minutes, too, if he has the strength to compete and can be a presence on the defensive glass.
His own dad says he will be better than Magic and ESPN is blindly along. Never seen more hype for someone who isn't likely to be a star player.
I mean, ESPN is playing along for the ratings aspect. This is the Tebow effect except Ball can actually play a little. Sports Center is probably going to lead with his highlights all year.
Agreed---he is not ready to be "a guy" yet, but needs reps with the ball and trying to create. We saw a lot of growth as a supporting player last year, especially in playoffs, and we'll just have to see if he's able to keep improving on that while moving down the somewhat long looking road to being a true alpha
I wasn't sure who looked worse with the ball in their hands last night - Jaylen or Nader. Both of them were regularly out of control going at the basket. Was surprised to see the two of them didn't have more turnovers. The spacing is, of course, fucked, and they shouldn't be ball handling in the first place, and yet - some ugly over dribbling and hopeless drives. If we're talking about 'feel,' their court awareness is no bueno.
Agree with whoever said that it was mildly exciting to see Ojeleye nailing catch and shoots above the break. That's an NBA skill! I'd have to watch again to see how his defense was.
Agree with whoever said that it was mildly exciting to see Ojeleye nailing catch and shoots above the break. That's an NBA skill! I'd have to watch again to see how his defense was.
Portland will be interesting to watch tonight: RJ Hunter, Collins, Layman BUT the guy that really has me curious is Swanigan. I was hoping he'd slip to us in the 2nd round. Big guy, motor, solid shooter. Big 10 Player of the Year. 1st team All-American. Double-double machine.
http://www.oregonlive.com/blazers/index.ssf/2017/07/trail_blazers_rookie_caleb_swanigan_shows_relentle.html
Would have loved to see him in Green, cleaning up defensive boards and hitting open 3s.
side note: decided to look at Portland's roster to see if they have an extra big after drafting Collins and Swanigan in the 1st round. Meyers Leonard, Ezeli, Noah Vonleh, Ed Wade, Harkless, Nurkic, Aminu, Layman. Nurkic is good value, Harkless is decent, the rest are too expensive or useless. It really is a completely bloated roster with no chance to contend and condemned to mediocrity in the West for many years to come. The inverse of the Celtics.
http://www.oregonlive.com/blazers/index.ssf/2017/07/trail_blazers_rookie_caleb_swanigan_shows_relentle.html
Would have loved to see him in Green, cleaning up defensive boards and hitting open 3s.
side note: decided to look at Portland's roster to see if they have an extra big after drafting Collins and Swanigan in the 1st round. Meyers Leonard, Ezeli, Noah Vonleh, Ed Wade, Harkless, Nurkic, Aminu, Layman. Nurkic is good value, Harkless is decent, the rest are too expensive or useless. It really is a completely bloated roster with no chance to contend and condemned to mediocrity in the West for many years to come. The inverse of the Celtics.
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It sounds crazy, but would it make sense for Jaylen to spend half a season in the D-league working on running an offense and being a primary creator? His feel is clearly nowhere close right now, and that's a hard thing to develop without live game reps.
Jesus fucking Christ. You want a guy who was second team All-Rookie who played significant minutes for an Eastern Conference finalist to play half a season in the D-League because he needs to work on "running an offense and being a primary creator?"
It is crazy. The kid is 20 and has already improved by leaps and bounds. He's well beyond the D-League. He'll be getting serious minutes for a conference championship contender. You can't come close to replicating that in Portland.
It is crazy. The kid is 20 and has already improved by leaps and bounds. He's well beyond the D-League. He'll be getting serious minutes for a conference championship contender. You can't come close to replicating that in Portland.
I get the concept of a d league (now G league, of course!) stint, but I think he's a guy that needs active practice play against top competition and a slowly-evolving role during games. He can contribute to the team, and I think also will develop best against the top players and with the best coaching and mentoring. It's not a question of the guy not having potential, it's just that he's farther away (and thus, may or may not get there) imo
I'm actually quite high on Jaylen, and I think that if the Celtics' ultimate goal for him was to be a 3 and D guy, he should just continue on his current track, and gradually up his minutes while hopefully making fewer mistakes on team defense.
However, his value skyrockets if he's able to create his own shot and improve as a playmaker, even if it's just relatively simple passes off of his drives. The Celtics clearly think so too, or he wouldn't be trying to learn that role in summer league right now.
Given how he looks trying to be a playmaker against summer league competition, I don't think the idea of him getting G-League minutes is extreme at all. I don't think the Celtics will do it, but they are going to have to get VERY creative in finding him opportunities to improve his playmaking in live game situations.
I think Ball is going to be a good, to very good player. I'm not seeing the bust potential honestly. He may have trouble getting his shot off, but on open looks I think he will be good. His defense will be decent against SGs
Brown getting minutes this summer as a ballhandler is good for him, but he hasn't handled it very well so far. He dribbles into nothing a lot, and as someone noted up thread he has one move and mind and isn't creative enough mentally to get out of that move if the read of the play is for something else. He relies too much on his athleticism when creating his shot, and doesn't appear to have the touch for a mid-range game. Right now I see him as a guy who should be able to hit spot up 3s consistently, drive to the basket, play with energy all around the court, and play good defense. In order to develop the type of "star" game his athleticism hints at, he needs to develop a better feel for the game and must improve his mid-range.
This brings me to Tatum, and he's got great offensive game. He's so polished, and reads the play really well. His rebounding was a surprise to me, but he always seems to be in the right place. He's had some good defensive plays and reads the play well. He's a very exciting player, especially on offense. He seems to be able to score in every possible way. Impressive kid.
Agree. He may eventually settle in at the 2, but the team's offense will run through him anyway. He needs to solve the shooting, but the elite vision and passing will take him far once he does.
Also Jason Kidd. I mean, it all depends on how strong his strengths are and how weak his weaknesses are. Which is saying absolutely nothing interesting. His passing numbers in college though are all-time great prospect status, though.
Kidd was an elite defender though, not... decent against 2s only, and he was actually pretty good at creating his own shots in the lane.
Lonzo has a chance to be a really good player, but he has to be an elite shooter likely, he seems to lack the lateral quickness needed to become anything more than aveage defensively, and his lack of quickness and sidewinding shot make it very difficult for him to create his own shot off the dribble.
People overrate having 1 elite skill, especially when it's passing, plenty of elite college passers flame out or never make the NBA because they lack the other skills needed. Passing is what separates good from great in guys like Lebron and Horford, but it's as a compliment to a host of other physical and skill traits.
I think this is an interesting discussion to have. In my mind, having an elite skill is actually underrated by GM's. I would say it is a necessary although not sufficient criterion for being a potential star, at least when we are talking about young prospects. This is one reason why I think certain types of prospects get continuously overrated, which are exactly those college players with solid to very good skills in many areas but no 'killer app' that can rocket them to the top of the league.
I think this played out in the case of Marcus Smart, to take a recent example. Its also one reason I think Josh Jackson was pretty overrated this year, but no one really knows anything yet.
The reverse example in recent memory is Nikola Jokic. He will probably end up as the best player from his draft class or second best if Embiid can stay healthy, and has a good chance at being a top 10 or top 5 player in the league. And as a prospect he showed elite passing numbers as a big and everything else was decent.
Agree with this, and would add that he's likely a 4 once he fills out (6-8/250 isn't a wing in today's NBA). If he can develop a reliable 3-point shot, he'll be a star. If he never shoots better than he does now, he'll be a solid NBA regular.
excellent post, couldn't agree more. Amid speculation on a game or three (Ball is a 2nd round worthy back-up PG; Tatum is the next George Gervin) it's worth keeping in mind that these summer LG guys are mostly so young that it's less about skills on the court than the talents they're flashing and what you call the 'killer app.'
