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Celtics in 18-19

Discussion in 'Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Celtics Forum' started by RedOctober3829, May 28, 2018.

  1. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    Someone needs to post the entire Marcus Morris interview in here. A whole lot to unpack, but IMO, he's the problem in that locker room. He hates the young guys.
     
  2. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Baynes reg rotation is 15-16 min. I’m too drunk to bother right now but I’m gonna guess that most of those say 18+ min games are blowouts but can almost assure the 20+ min games def are.
     
  3. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Here is the Morris interview. I don't know if he said more but I saw nothing singling out anyone in particular. I defer to the posters in market who may have more insight into the locker room dynamics - I haven't seen him or anyone else pointing to the younger players.

     
  4. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Regarding Kyrie's knee...



    From Keith Smith: If there is a silver lining with Kyrie Irving having a right knee sprain, it is that is the opposite knee from the one Irving has had surgery on in the past.
     
  5. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    All veterans hate young guys though. That’s why veteran led teams stock up on veteran role players and not young guys. Oh and I’m drunk.
     
  6. JCizzle

    JCizzle Member SoSH Member

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    This is good shit

     
  7. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

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    this team is driving HRB to the bottle...

    save some, you'll need more with upcoming road games in Philly, Toronto and Milwaukee

    when is pitchers and catchers?
     
  8. Rook05

    Rook05 Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    This is an all time sum-is-less-than-its-parts team.

    Ride or die, Kyrie and AD. Ride or die.
     
  9. Average Game James

    Average Game James Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    WTF? I went to bed at halftime. How the hell did they lose this game?
     
  10. cecil c

    cecil c lurker

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    Tatum $7.8 million
    MLE player ≈ $5.6 million
    Yabusele $3.1 million
    TimeLord $1.9 million

    Keep Tatum and TL. Why would you trade these two young guys for someone who doesn't want to play in Boston? I am looking forward to watching these two young men grow old in green.
     
  11. Jed Zeppelin

    Jed Zeppelin Member SoSH Member

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    They need the basketball version of the fun practice montage that they’d have in the Mighty Ducks movies.
     
  12. Van Everyman

    Van Everyman Member SoSH Member

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    What am I missing about that MaMo interview? He’s saying that players are playing as individuals (and as a result not having fun)? Haven’t we been saying the same thing all season? Why does this mean *he* is the cancer?
     
  13. Captaincoop

    Captaincoop Member SoSH Member

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    This will make it a lot easier to trade all the young guys for AD, I guess.

    Maybe this group would have played better with an ego manager coach like Doc instead of an Xs and Os guy like Stevens. Stevens worked wonders with the young, undertalented teams, but this group is probably talented enough to roll the ball out and win most nights if they can be convinced to buy into their roles and play hard.
     
  14. lars10

    lars10 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Because he’s example no. 1... he doesn’t pass and is a black hole.. always looking for his shot over anything else.. so it’s sort of rich that he’s the one saying it. He’s also one of the ones making sure it isn’t fun. If he looked himself in the mirror that if he played the way he talked maybe some things would change.
     
  15. lars10

    lars10 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Two guys that can’t seem to stay on the court.. Kyrie’s injuries almost seem to be mounting and I worry about AD at his size over the years.
     
  16. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    They got outscored 28-12 in 3Q and then gave up 42 in 4Q.
     
  17. tbb345

    tbb345 Member SoSH Member

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    Completely agree.
    I don’t think Morris is a problem in the locker room and i think what he said is actually right but those quotes last night should not be coming from him. As Lars said, the guy creates nothing for his teammates and it’s a minor miracle if he passes the ball at all.

    If Kyrie wasn’t so concerned with being a “leader” and talking to the press about the teams problems every other week, I think Mook’s quotes would be a lot more powerful. But, at this point, we’ve all heard this type of shit so much this season that it’s really hard to care or imagine that anything changes
     
  18. Captaincoop

    Captaincoop Member SoSH Member

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    This is where it's a shame that there isn't a really good beat writer covering the Celtics. Someone needs to get a couple of these guys off the record and figure out what's going on in this locker room.

    I mean, we can all read tea leaves and parse the little snippets we hear from the same 2-3 guys, but we are just guessing at what the dynamic is.
     
  19. mikeot

    mikeot Member SoSH Member

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    Is Doc still in town? Has he talked to DA lately? Asking for a franchise.
     
  20. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    This article from about a month ago suggests that the problem may be Al: https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/1/16/18184141/al-horford-celtics-struggles. Not that Al is playing poorly but because he is so important to what Brad is trying to do. Not sure if it is injuries or just a fluke of numbers but this is the first year when the Cs have a better net rating when Al is off the court.

    One thing the article mentions is that Al has always been the best playmaker for the Cs but he is doing less of that this year (assists are down).

    I'm also noticing that by position, in 2016-17, he played 25% at 4, and 75% at 5; in 2017-18, that was 43% at 4 and 57% at 5, and this year he is playing 4% at 4 and 96% at 5.

    Here are the numbers (I assume numbers don't total because of rounding).

    2016-17:
    • Cs were 113.5 with Al on court versus 109.4 with him off (+4.1)
    • Cs opponents were 108.9 with Al on court versus 108.3 with him off (-0.7).
    • Net = +3.4
    2017-18:
    • Cs were 110.9 with Al on court versus 104.4 with him off (+6.5)
    • Cs opponents were 103.8 with Al on court versus 105.2 with him off (+1.4).
    • Net = +8.0
    2018-19:
    • Cs are 114.2 with Al on court versus 109.8 with him off (+4.4)
    • Cs opponents are 112.5 with Al on court versus 103.6 with him off (-8.9).
    • Net = -4.7
    Perhaps the biggest takeaway from having so many wings is that Brad isn't playing Al at the 4 anymore. That and they really need Baynes back and healthy. @benhogan
     
  21. Lazy vs Crazy

    Lazy vs Crazy Member SoSH Member

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    If you watch the bench during the games most of the players there are jumping around and having fun and cheering on their teammates. It seems like Morris is the one not having fun, not the team as a whole.
     
  22. sox311

    sox311 Member SoSH Member

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    I thought this when I heard him as well. Baynes is up for every shot. Kyrie is cheering on Terry as if he is the one making the baskets. They are jumping all over the place.

    But, I also heard a writer say, may have been Jackie Mac, that locker rooms aren’t the same. Everyone has headphones on and just scrolling on their phone all the time. We completely see that on IG everyday.
     
  23. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    For the same reason we traded for Ray Allen when the cries were, “Why would we jeopardize our future to try and lure KG to Boston when he doesn’t want to be here?”
     
  24. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    What baffles me is how quickly everything deteriorates. The go from playing decent basketball to one pass and a shot. They stop running. And what's even crazier, it doesn't seem to depend very much on the rotations. The switch just goes off, no matter who is on the floor.
     
  25. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Which means it’s definitely a chemistry issue and Danny probably should have shipped some people out at the deadline. Morris would have been a prime candidate even if his removal would have been a bad thing on paper.

    We have no idea about what Kyrie thinks but this is troubling to see a few months before your best FA is about to hit the open market.
     
  26. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    If you look at the individual pieces it shouldn’t be that baffling. Kyrie, MaMo and Tatum have the ball in their hands the majority of the time. They are iso players which are crucial to a teams success but having too many is a bad fit. We’ve discussed this since the preseason.

    Last year there was better flow and ball movement not because Horford played the 4 but because the offense often ran through him. That isn’t happening nearly much this year with the ball stuck to our best scorers. This is another example of an NBA Coach having little impact on playoff teams as it’s the stars who dictate how the game is played. Too many iso players together is a terrible fit.....this shouldn’t be that surprising to anyone. You don’t “build chemistry” when it is forced.....the game of basketball doesn’t work this way. Look back on KG’s first year for how chemistry plays out in this game. Chemistry is natural except for the one-offs that occur with every rule.
     
  27. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    But sometimes the ball movement is good. They were up by 28. Then they just stopped playing basketball. I don't think Kyrie's knee had anything to do with it. They have too many iso players because that's the way they start to play. If one guy takes a shot, the next guy has to jack one up next time down the floor. It's as though they are competing with one another.
     
  28. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Just by eyesight, I'm not sure it's the ball movement. Cs are really good when they get out on the break - i.e., when they turn the ball over or when they are able get stops.

    The Cs are not very good when they take the ball out of the basket over and over again.

    The first half of the LAC game was sort of fool's gold as LAC missed a bunch of shots at the rim and turned the ball over something like 11 times. Well, the TOs stopped; they stopped missing at the rim; and the Cs stopped getting easy buckets.

    Being able to guard JT with Beverley really helped.
     
  29. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    Last year they were a team. This year they are a collection of trade assets. Rozier and Morris are gone in July, and Tatum's future may be in New Orleans. Baynes is on a one year deal, Brown wants to be paid, Horford can opt out and who knows what Kyrie will do? There's alot of uncertainty and it's affecting their play at both ends.
     
  30. Van Everyman

    Van Everyman Member SoSH Member

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    Maybe it's the embarrassment of riches on the Boston sports front right now, but I'm having trouble really getting worked up about this. At the end of the day, this is the regular season and unless they completely fall apart, this team has as much talent as any to compete in the playoffs. And as we just discovered--literally a week ago--teams can find their identity when you least expect it.
     
  31. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    It is the ball movement. When the ball moves side to side it gives players either wide open shots or open lanes to go to the basket. When things get tough, they resort to iso ball at the end of the clock and force up a tough shot or drive into a clogged lane which ends up in a bad shot/charge/turnover. When this group shares the ball and doesn’t worry about who gets the shots, they are better offensively than just about any team. Problem is that they don’t do it for stretches which is infinitely frustrating.
     
  32. JCizzle

    JCizzle Member SoSH Member

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    Exhibit A, 8 seconds left on the shot clock:



    It was a bad call- James Harden would foul out in under a quarter if he was treated like that. However, one extra pass and Morris has an open look or another after that and Rozier does too. Instead it's a contested mid-range. Morris has little room to complain since he takes that same shot 100% of the time too. He should look in the mirror along with the rest of the team. Horford is the only guy I'd trust to consistently pass out of that situation right now. Kyrie might not, but he's also a superstar. Everyone else needs to get with the fucking program.
     
  33. Devizier

    Devizier Member SoSH Member

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    I know you catch a lot of flak around these parts and loathe as I am to draw inferences on the mental state of players this has to be a consideration for these guys. Everyone bagged the Lakers for having that game against Indiana after Lebron offered to trade his entire team away and it has to be registering with a whole bunch of Celtics what the *failure* of said Lakers' trade means for their own future.
     
  34. Captaincoop

    Captaincoop Member SoSH Member

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    I'm not buying that. They have looked like this for big chunks of the season, since October.

    It's just not a cohesive group of talent.
     
  35. Van Everyman

    Van Everyman Member SoSH Member

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    It’s also an immature collection of talent that is playing with pressure for the first time.

    As bad as they’ve looked at times, would anyone be shocked if they went on a run during the playoffs? I’m not saying it’s likely – but I’d be a fuckload more surprised if they went one and done.
     
  36. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    The Anthony Davis chatter didn't start a week before the deadline. They also know that they've underachieved, and one way or another, this team will be dismantled.
     
  37. LondonSox

    LondonSox Robert the Deuce SoSH Member

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    I mean the arm extends following the guy going down, that's textbook what ref look for.

    More concerning would be Kyrie is wide open at 3 and asking for it, Al is asking for it too. I haven't watched them THAT much but sheesh that's the antithesis of last season.

    Several people have also said Tatum needs the ball in his hands, why? He was great in his roll last year and now you have Kyrie back. His creation is dubious right now no? Lots of iso, lots of mid range. That's the narrative and the stats sort of back it but no idea if it's really true.

    If it is, isn't he the issue? That isn't what he did last year
     
  38. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    He's 29 years old, and he acts like he's some 34 year old grizzled vet who knows what it's like to play for a winner. The guy is pretty much the opposite of a winner. The teams he played on had played a grand total of 4 playoff games in his career prior to last season with the Celtics. I'd love to hear Kevin McHale's thoughts on Marcus Morris. In 2012/13, Morris was a 23 year old, 2nd year player coming off the bench for Houston. He was playing 21.4mpg and averaging 8.6ppg/4.1rpg (14.5/6.8 per 36) and had a TS of .538%. He was fine for what he was. But at the trade deadline, they dumped him for a 2nd round pick from the Suns (which they turned into Isaiah Canaan). At the time of the trade, Houston was 29-26. From that point forward, they went 16-11 (addition by subtraction), and snuck into the playoffs as the #8 seed, where they lost to the Thunder in 6. Then they signed Dwight Howard in the offseason, and went 54-28 the following season.

    I've wondered about that trade in the 12/13 season at various times since Morris came here, and I started thinking about it again last night as I was watching that shitshow of an interview. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Does he not have any self-awareness? The guys is, IMO, the worst ball stopper on the team. If he hasn't taken a shot in about 5-6 trips down the floor, you can guarantee if the ball hits his hands, it's stopping right there. Yesterday, at one point, he grabbed a defensive rebound, and because he hadn't taken a shot in a little while, you knew he was going to dribble all the way up the court, and either make some awful drive to the hoop that would get blocked, or back someone down and do a fallaway. He didn't get the chance, because as he was getting ready to go into "ME-Mo mode," there was a foul away from the ball. I've pointing it out a lot recently, but Morris is able to hide it well, but the guy has literally NO HOPS. Zero. We joke about Al not having hops, but MaMo is just as bad, if not worse. He can't get off the ground. That's why he's such a bad finisher at the rim, when he takes it to the hoop.


    Over his last 18 games, he's shooting .430/.355/.844, which is in line with his career #'s of .433/.364/.745. Prior to that, he was shooting .501/.441/.886. Brad hasn't cut his minutes (he's gone from 27.5 in 2018 to 27.6 in 2019, he's gone up slightly) and he's taking the exact same number of shots at 11.1fga, so he's "still getting his," but he's not exactly playing well, and if soneone was going to speak up last night, and talk about how they aren't "having fun," it most definitely should not be the guy who consistently looks the most miserable, who's been seen on video attacking a younger teammate and is the first example of ball "hog" they have on the team, when things get a little tough on the offensive end. He was also dreadful defensively yesterday, losing track of his men at the 3 point line, getting blown by when his man would go to the hoop, etc.
     
  39. ifmanis5

    ifmanis5 Member SoSH Member

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    #2839 ifmanis5, Feb 10, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  40. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    Tatum: I also don't agree that Tatum needs to be strictly an isolation player. He wasn't last year. Granted, he has the ability to create his own shot, and he is still learning the game as well as growing into his frame. Maybe it's too much to ask for someone like him, at this point in his career, to take fewer shots on this particular team.

    Morris: Morris provided a ton of value off the bench last year in both scoring and rebounding while recovering from a serious knee injury. I think what's happened is that he is a more mature but less skilled version of Tatum, and he's starting and getting starters minutes, so he is taking shots when he thinks he can make them. I'm not too worried about him, as there is no way he is on the team after July 1st anyway, no matter what happens with Davis, Kyrie, et al. I doubt he had any trade value at the deadline, and there was no real chance for Ainge to trade him off this team anyway.

    I'm not at all confident they'll be able to simply figure it out and turn it on in time for the playoffs. The cake was baked for this season long before the season started.

    Long term, their best chances are either to (a) obtain Davis; or (b) let Kyrie walk and retool around Brown/Tatum while hoping Memphis continues to lose.
     
  41. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

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    Thank you Wade. This pretty much nails it. All-Star Al of 2017-18 is gone and we are left with a misused, strictly a 5 Horford. It sucks, I love Al and hate to see him catching any blame, this is on Brad. Brad even promised a few weeks back he would team up Al at the 4 with Baynes (or Theis) on occasion like he did vs. Memphis. It worked and we haven't really seen it used effectively since, this is 100% Brad's fault.

    Besides the obvious upgrade on defense when you combine Al with Bayens.
    On offense, this is what Baynes does (and Theis also) instead of a wing that plants themselves in the corner waiting for the ball to maybe be rotated:
    1. Baynes (&Theis) set screens for our better offensive players
    2. Baynes (&Theis) pick and roll with the ball handler
    3. Baynes (&Theis) play physical and their solid screens slow aggressive defenders down from bodying up our best offensive players
    4. Baynes (&Theis) tip out 50/50 balls on the offensive glass
    5. Baynes (&Theis) can create a post presence, and Baynes (&Theis) can draw a BIG to the perimeter. They also spread the floor in a different manner then a wing planted in the corner.

    Most importantly Baynes (&Theis) move and teammates cut off their screens and mismatches are created. Kyrie + 3 wings + Al on the perimeter, standing there like potted plants, looking to go ISO hasn't worked from Day 1 this year, before that if you count preseason.

    All of this is irrelevant since Brad won't go with Al at the 4 and it's probably too late to install/build any continuity with it. The one glimmer* of hope here is if we get AD, Brad will be forced to play Al and AD together.

    *another longshot is if Brad replaces MaMo with Baynes in the starting lineup. BUT I'd expect Brad would use Brown or Hayward (w/their rough 3pt%) there. Thus we'd continue to get similar results.
     
    #2841 benhogan, Feb 10, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  42. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    Kyrie had an MRI and he's day to day with a right knee strain.
     
  43. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    I doubt Al is going to be back in Boston next year. About the only possible scenario where I can see him returning is if Kevin Durant Chris Pauls his way to Boston. Then Boston might give Al a four year deal (at a reduced annual salary) to keep KD happy and ease the luxury tax concerns.

    Aside from that, especially if they acquire Davis, he’s nearly certain to sign that four year deal elsewhere (or sign an MLE deal with the Warriors to get his ring).
     
  44. Montana Fan

    Montana Fan Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    He's owed $30 million next year if he wants it. Why not exercise the option, play one more year with Boston (or possibly be traded) and then sign a 3 year deal as a FA?
     
  45. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    I wonder if he'd just exercise his huge player option and play the year out especially if Davis is going to be playing alongside him.
     
  46. lars10

    lars10 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Agree with all of this.

    I will say this for Morris. He carried the team at times down the stretch last year... when the team needed scoring he provided a ton of it heading to and into the playoffs. Only problem is he hasn't adjusted at all this season. This is also on Brad though. He hasn't adjusted any of his minutes or put him back on the second string after Brown started out performing him and he was playing awful. Hayward, Al and him on the floor at any one time is a recipe for surefire defensive breakdowns and a general lack of hustle/going to the ball.

    Morris should be back on the bench when scorers are needed and the starting lineup should go back to what it was at the beginning of the season. Baynes and Theis also need more minutes once Baynes is healthy again. Maybe Horford would be more effective with fewer minutes.. the thing I would say for Al though is he's great passing and spreading the floor. If anything Al and Hayward have seemed a little lost this year because they're trying to play within the rest of the team..possibly being too unselfish at times. Meanwhile you have Morris, Smart and Rozier who are all too happy to take as many shots as they can on any given night regardless of how well they're shooting (at least Smart does also look to pass at times, but his propensity for shooting the 3 at the absolute worst times hasn't changed).

    I'd like to see what another coach would change. Not sure what Brad changed this season, but none of it is working...and I also wonder how much his blind allegiance to Hayward is hurting the team as well..
     
  47. OurF'ingCity

    OurF'ingCity Member SoSH Member

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    Yeah, this is a really weird season insofar as it’s essentially a transition season between the current group and very likely a drastically different team next season, and yet no players have actually left yet.

    I do think that must be factoring in at least somewhat to the disjointed feeling from the team this year - there’s literally not a single player on this year’s team that might not be gone come the summer and that must be in their heads to some degree.
     
  48. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    Wasn't it the same situation 2 years ago? Everyone knew that there would be big changes in IT's last year yet they played to the best of their abilities. Something is up in that locker room.
     
  49. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    It depends on the matchup. If the playoffs started today, the Celtics would be the 5 seed playing on the road against a loaded Sixers squad.

    You’d honestly be more surprised if the Celtics lost against Philly than if they went on a run to the ECF?

    Now, if Philly moves to 3 seed and Pacers move to 4/5, then I would probably be surprised if the Celtics couldn’t get past them assuming no major injuries.
     
  50. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    The risk is that Horford's contract after next season is an MLE deal, as he would be 34 and has already shown some signs of decline here and there.

    If he opts out, there's a chance he could get a 3-year deal at a number less than the max; while lowering his AAV, he would get more money over the next 3 years.

    I see no real way he opts out just to take an MLE deal next season somewhere. I don't see him leaving that kind of money on the table.

    EDIT: And if the Celtics cannot get a 4 or better seed, they'll have absolutely earned their first round exit.
     

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