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Celebrating What Is: Ten Most Important Non-TB12 Players of the BB/TB Era

Discussion in 'Blinded by the Lombardis: Patriots Forum' started by Ralphwiggum, Jan 29, 2019.

  1. Ralphwiggum

    Ralphwiggum Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,997
    I'm bored, there are still a million years to go until Sunday, and I am and enjoying these "Celebrating What Is" threads so I'm starting another one.

    List your ten most important players of the BB/TB Era, not counting TB himself. We did something like this a couple of years ago, but a lot of good stuff has happened in the interim so it might be fun to update the list.

    Rules are as follows:

    1. Players only, no coaches, owners, GMs, front office personnel, or dorito dinks eligible.

    2. These are top 10 most "important" players to the dynasty, not best players. Define that however you like. Obviously Lombardi's must be taken into consideration but contributing to a team that won a Lombardi is not a prerequisite.

    3. Excellence in the regular season leads to bye weeks and home field advantage in the post-season, so both regular season and post-season performance should be considered.

    4. We can all agree that the GOAT is #1 on everyone's list, so the Top 10 are #s 2 through 11 not counting Tom himself.

    So what say you SOSH?
     
  2. Ralphwiggum

    Ralphwiggum Member SoSH Member

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    4,997
    Here's my attempt:

    1. Gronk
    2. Edelman
    3. Adam Vinatieri
    4. Ty Law
    5. Teddy Bruschi
    6. Richard Seymour
    7. Dont'a Hightower
    8. Rodney Harrison
    9. Devin McCourtey
    10. Malcolm Butler

    Really, really tough list for me to put together. Some thoughts:

    -Kind of hard to believe I had Gronk and Jules #1 and #2, but I have a hard time putting anyone else in front of them. Gronk is arguably the greatest ever at his position, played on 5 Super Bowl teams in his 9 years in the league, and has been a monster in both the regular season and post-season. The only knock against him is he missed a SB and was limited in another with injuries, but still I can't think of anyone to list above him. Edelman has just had so many clutch catches it is hard to ignore.

    -Vinatieri: Too high? Too low? Seems crazy to put a kicker here, but in terms of importance, the Snow Bowl kicks and two SB winning kicks are hard to ignore.

    -Law, Bruschi and Seymour up a little higher than Hightower, Rodney and DMac because of 3 rings to 2, but that can change on Sunday. Law, Bruschi and Seymour were also the backbones of the D when the D was still primarily responsible for the team being great.

    -Butler, have to include him right?
     
  3. Van Everyman

    Van Everyman Member SoSH Member

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    How is Troy Brown not on this list? I feel like Welker and Edelman owe their entire careers to that guy.
     
  4. Ralphwiggum

    Ralphwiggum Member SoSH Member

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    Because I'm an idiot.

    He should probably be on there, who would you dump?
     
  5. snowmanny

    snowmanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Vince Wilfork needs to be on that list.
     
  6. PC Drunken Friar

    PC Drunken Friar Member SoSH Member

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    1) Gronk
    2) Jules
    3) Troy Brown
    4) Seymore
    5) Bruschi
    6) McGintest
    7) Ty Law
    8) Wilfork
    9) Vinatieri
    10) Harrison
     
  7. Van Everyman

    Van Everyman Member SoSH Member

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    17,076
    I think it's DMAC -- not that he isn't awesome and, yeah, really important in the grand scheme of things. But unlike Hightower, he doesn't have any signature plays (that I can recall anyway) and I'm not sure he was one of the five most important guys of this latest run.
     
  8. Mooch

    Mooch Member SoSH Member

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    Wow, this is a difficult exercise. I'd probably rank them this way:

    1. Troy Brown
    2. Gronk
    3. Edelman
    4. D. McCourty
    5. McGinest
    6. Bruschi
    7. Ty Law
    8. Hightower
    9. Seymour
    10. Vinatieri
     
  9. Caspir

    Caspir Member SoSH Member

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    5,175
    To me, more than half the list is already spoken for between Troy Brown, Willie Mac,Seymour, Bruschi, AV, Rodney, and Ty. Then there's Hightower and James White, which leaves one spot for Jules?

    So:
    1. Troy Brown
    2. McGinest
    3. Seymour
    4. Bruschi
    5. Vinatieri
    6. Rodney
    7. Ty
    8. Hightower
    9. Wilfork
    10. James White



    Damn, that left out Branch, Givens, Butler, and Gronk. I keep Gronkowski off the list because he lacks a signature moment in previous post-season successes, and I'm viewing it through that lens. I kept Butler off because he had his moment, then got benched in a subsequent Super Bowl, while James White just chugs along and delivers whenever needed. This was a whole lot harder than I thought, and I'm noticing many of us have a bias toward those 2003-2004 teams that were just juggernauts. Could be that the more recent guys are still leaving their mark as well.


    Edit- Still left him off, but Gronk does have some great playoff stats - He just lacks some of those signature moments.
     
  10. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    1. Troy Brown
    2. Tedy Bruschi
    3. Julian Edelman
    4. Rob Gronkowski
    5. Willie McGinest
    6. Ty Law
    7. Rodney Harrison
    8. Adam Vinatieri
    9. Mike Vrabel
    10. Mo Lewis

    Honorable mention: Butler, Hightower, Seymour, Devin McCourty, David Givens, Deion Branch, Lawyer Milloy, James White, Playoff Dola, Big Vince, Matt Light, Nate Solder, Dan Koppen

    Edit: I can't believe I am the first to mention Vrabel... and Mo Lewis!
     
  11. Mooch

    Mooch Member SoSH Member

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    The one guy not mentioned yet that I seriously considered at #10 is Matt Light.
     
  12. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    I included him in my honorable mentions but yeah. Started from 2001-2011.
     
  13. SoxJox

    SoxJox Member SoSH Member

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    Wes Welker? Selected to PB 4 of his 6 years in NE - twice 1st team. Led league in receptions 3 of those 6 years, including the99-yd TD catch in '11.
     
  14. Bowhemian

    Bowhemian Member SoSH Member

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    2,123
    I would argue that Bledsoe was one of the most important during the infant stages of the BB/TB era. Dude was the first QB that gave me hope for the Patriots in a very, very, very, very long time.
     
  15. Ale Xander

    Ale Xander Member SoSH Member

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    1, Troy Brown
    2. Tedy Bruschi
    3. Julian Edelman
    4. Adam Vinatieri
    5. Ty Law
    6. Vince Wilfork
    7. Richard Seymour
    8. Mike Vrabel
    9. Robert Gronkowski
    10. James White

    hm: Devin McCourty, Willie McGinest, Rodney Harrison, Matthew Slater, Matt Light, Dan Koppen
     
  16. BaseballJones

    BaseballJones goalpost mover SoSH Member

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    There's no "right" answer, and lots of very very good ones. My stab at it:

    1. Bruschi - the heart and soul of the defense during the first run that got it all going.
    2. Brown - the perfect compliment to Brady during that first run.
    3. Edelman - just look at his postseason game log from 2013-present. Unreal.
    4. Vinatieri - without him, I'm not sure this whole thing even gets off the ground.
    5. Moss - too high? maybe. Never won the SB here and had a short time here but his impact was meteoric. Showed what Brady could do with an elite WR and took this offense to an entirely different level.
    6. Wilfork - won it in 2004 and 2014, and was the rock on D bridging the gap between the two championship periods.
    7. McGinest - helped bring the Pats from the 1996 SB team to the championships from 2001-04.
    8. Gronkowski - oft-injured, been to 5 SBs now, won 2, but only a key player for one actual SB title...still, best ever at his position and a total game-changer. Imagine him and Moss fully healthy and in their primes together.
    9. Law - elite CB, rock of the early championship secondaries. Wish he would have come back for a second run.
    10. Hightower - made ENORMOUS plays in the last two SB victories, stopping Lynch at the 1 yard line, then strip-sacking Ryan. Elite player in the biggest moments, missing him in last year's SB was a devastating loss.
     
  17. wiffleballhero

    wiffleballhero Member SoSH Member

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    The reasons for each of these guys is pretty obvious, except maybe for Ghost, but I am pretty committed to the idea that having 13 years of Ghost has been a quiet blessing that is easy to overlook, but has been huge.

    My reasoning, such as it is, is that I am skipping the interregnum, so Welker, Moss, and anything that is primarily in the Logan Mankins era is not making the cut.

    Not in order of importance:

    1. Gronk
    2. Ty Law
    3. Troy Brown
    4. Kevin Faulk
    5. Edelman
    6. DMC
    7. Vinitieri
    8. Ghost
    9. Bruschi
    10. Hightower
     
  18. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Captain of the under-appreciated team
     
  19. bigq

    bigq Member SoSH Member

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    Vrabel and David Givens need a seat at the table as well.
     
  20. Ralphwiggum

    Ralphwiggum Member SoSH Member

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    Anyone who omits Rodney from their list is hereby sentenced to watch Three Games to Glory 2 and 3 and come back and write a thousand word apology. He is everywhere in those two playoff runs. He is a little lower for me because he wasn’t on the 2001 team so he only has two rings but I think he’s the best player on defense during the post-season in the 2nd and 3rd Championship seasons.
     
  21. SMU_Sox

    SMU_Sox loves his fluffykins SoSH Member

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    Vince Wilfork and Steve Gregory combined to give us the butt fumble. Butt fumble has its own wikipedia page. The moment that defined the Patriots dynasty. I'm not usually a slapstick guy but if I ever need to laugh all I have to do is google butt fumble. I'm doing it now. Right this moment. Yep, still good.

    Wilfork, I see, has gotten the credit he deserves but little has been said about Gregory.

    Kidding aside I was surprised to see Welker omitted on the majority of lists. if we had to pick a greatest receiver of the TB BB era I think it is Welker.

    When you look at individual season records for the Patriots, Wes dominates. He has 5/5 top 5 single season receptions records. He is 1, 4, and 5 on single season receiving yards and only Moss from this dynasty is also in the top 5. He is the all-time Patriots leader in receptions, 3rd in receiving yards, and 8th for receiving TDs.
    I think he comes up short on these lists because although Wes had some good games in the playoffs in 8 of 12 playoff starts (I am not counting 2014) he was held for 60 yards or under. I think that's the answer. Some of that is unfair to him. He often was on a squad where he was the featured weapon so he got extra attention or safety help. We remember the drops too. Welker had a 75.9% catch rate in the playoffs. For perspective Jules is 64.4%. (Quick edit: Welker's catch rate incorporates 2014, sorry)
    Maybe though when you are part of a dynasty and you never win the ultimate prize you aren't making an ultra-short list and it's as simple as that.
     
  22. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    20,580
    The answer on Welker is simply that he dropped the pass in 2011. If he catches the pass, he makes the list. Fair or unfair, that is why.
     
  23. m0ckduck

    m0ckduck Member SoSH Member

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    825
    I enjoy this exercise a bunch. I do think people are overdoing it with the "anti-recency-bias" takes in some cases— specifically ranking so many of the defensive stalwarts from the early BB era over players like Gronk, Edelman, etc. I love me some Richard Seymour, but I don't really see the case for him over Gronk. If it's playoff impact alone, well, they both played in 15 playoff games, had some key contributions but no signature ones. If it's overall contribution that we're evaluating, it's tough to make the case for Seymour over Gronk, as great as the former was. Ditto Ty Law: one of my favorite Pats players ever... but only had 3.5 seasons with BB.

    Edit: also, if you're being a hardliner and basing this purely on SB equity, then Malcolm Butler needs to be higher and on more lists. He's only got the biggest WPA play of all time in any sport. Plus whatever value he tacked on in 2015 and 2016 postseasons.
     
    #23 m0ckduck, Jan 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
  24. Mooch

    Mooch Member SoSH Member

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    I tend to give a bit more weight to the guys that started the dynasty (Law, Brown, Seymour, Bruschi) because without that first title, I'm not sure the 2nd and 3rd come as quickly. The first ring put the franchise on the map where players actually wanted to come. If they don't win 36, I'm not sure we ever see Rodney Harrison, Rosie Colvin and Tyrone Poole on the 2003 team. The Pats became a destination based on that 2001 Super Bowl Championship and getting that second title led to a guy like Corey Dillon restructuring his contract to make the trade happen with the Bengals. Everything fed off of that first win IMO.
     
  25. m0ckduck

    m0ckduck Member SoSH Member

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    825
    Fair point!

    The counter might be that the early-dynasty teams had a broader distribution of talent to rely on, back when Brady was still earning middling dollars. Recent editions have leaned really heavily on TB and a few trusted skill players to move the chains over and over again and, in some cases, cover up some pretty shabby defensive performances.

    But, it's a good argument: getting over the hump is the hardest part, so those players deserve special merit.
     
  26. 8slim

    8slim Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    This is an interesting sidetrack. Not disagreeing that the importance of '01 is impossible to overstate. Yet there wasn't a direct line from '01 to '03, and the looming dynasty certainly wasn't inevitable. '02 turned into a mess with that 4 game losing streak and missing out on the playoffs entirely. To more than a few people that made '01 seem like a bit of a fluke. Even in '03 the team was sitting at 2-2 and dealing with a rash of injuries. I recall merely hoping they could get to, say, week 10 at .500 and then making a run as more guys got healthy. Of course we never lost again and the dynasty was on.

    I guess that's a long winded way of saying '03 was awfully important as well!
     
  27. Mooch

    Mooch Member SoSH Member

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    The first thing that Rodney Harrison cited when he signed with the Pats was that they were "one year removed from winning the Super Bowl." At the time, he was seriously considering joining the Raiders but picked the Pats largely because of the success in 2001 and the signings of Colvin and Poole, showing a commitment to defense. Colvin also mentioned the 2001 Super Bowl as a key factor for signing with the Pats that offseason.
     
  28. Ale Xander

    Ale Xander Member SoSH Member

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    Vrabel is on my top 10.
     
  29. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Yup. Welker would be a legend if not for that dropped pass and a stupid helmet catch. Of course, going to Denver and knocking Talib out in 2013 also hurts his Patriots legacy.
     
  30. Ralphwiggum

    Ralphwiggum Member SoSH Member

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    In terms of guys from the 2000s vs. guys from the 2010s, while there is one more Lombardi to point to in the 2000s (at least for now), the team has generally been more consistently good during the 2010s. 5 Super Bowl Appearances to 4 and of course 8 straight AFC Title games (and their worst year was a loss in the divisional round). A lot of the heart and soul of the 2001 team went 9-7 in 2002 and played wild card weekend in 2005 and 2006, missed the playoffs in 2008 (albeit sans Brady) and got their doors blown off at home wild card weekend in 2009. A lot of that is that Brady was much better over the 2nd stretch than the first, but it also caused me to consider more guys from the later run.

    Even then my distribution was 5 and 5 and I somehow omitted Wilfork (arguably the one guy with Brady who spans both eras) and Troy Brown. Tough to keep it at 10.
     
  31. azsoxpatsfan

    azsoxpatsfan lurker

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    It's so hard to pick ten when there's no obvious drop-off between a lot of these players but here's my list, not in order of importance:

    1. Gronk. As others have said no signature playoff moment, but the best TE to ever play the game and a massive reason for a lot of the team's success.
    2. Edelman. Great receiver when he's on the field, caught the go ahead td against Seattle, had the ridiculous catch against the Falcons, and has overall been one of the best playoff performers in NFL history.
    3. Rodney. Ridiculous impact in 2nd and 3rd SB's. Best defensive player on those teams, at least during those playoff runs.
    4. Butler. Without Butler Brady falls to 3-3 in SB's and we would have gone (at least) XXXIX to LI with no titles. Most important play in NFL history imo.
    5. Vinatieri. Snow kicks and two SB winning kicks. Needs a spot for that.
    6. Hightower. Game-altering plays in two SB's. Has been a defensive leader and great linebacker for 2 SB wins and 3 appearances.
    7. Ty Law. Not a long time with BB/TB but won 3 SB's and had the pick-six in XXXVI which was just a massive moment for the franchise.
    8. White. Great player for four seasons so far. Has only won one SB that he was active for but had 14 receptions and scored 20 points, including first walk-off TD in Super Bowl history. Tied record for receptions in a postseason game this season.
    9. Troy Brown. Absolutely instrumental piece of the early part of the dynasty, both in the regular season and postseason.
    10. Wilfork. As stated above, was a defensive stalwart bridging the gap between 2004 and 2014. Leader on the team and a game-changing player.

    I'm biased towards players who won, which is why Welker and Moss etc. are left off despite having huge impacts. It just seems that they can't be considered the most important pieces when they never won a title. I also may be biased towards recent players, as the early dynasty was when I was pretty young and a lot of my memory of specific plays and players comes from having watched the games and looked at the stats in the years since, so I know how the players performed but I have a much clearer idea of how, for example, I felt during the Butler interception than I did during the Vinatieri kick in XXXVI. I tried to keep this bias out but might not have been able to fully.
     
  32. Bellhorn

    Bellhorn Lumiere SoSH Member

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    He also had a horrible 3rd down drop in the 2012 AFCCG. And while of course we will never know if it really had an impact, it surely didn’t help the team’s focus that he went and got himself benched for that stupid foot gag right before that dud in 2010.
     
  33. Ralphwiggum

    Ralphwiggum Member SoSH Member

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    4,997
    BTW, for those omitting or moving Gronk down on the list, (a) he’s the only other sure-fire no-doubt HOFer on any of these lists (unless you include Moss), and (b) if he’s done after Sunday he’s going to retire with 2 or 3 rings (I know he missed the Falcons Super Bowl) and 5 Super Bowls in 9 seasons in the league. I guess he didn’t have his signature playoff moment, but he was consistently great whenever he suited up, regular and post-season.

    Also there are these two games:

    2016 AFC Title Game: 8 catches 144 yards and a TD
    SB 52: 9 catches 116 yards, 2 TD

    They lost both of those games, but those performances should not be overlooked. Particularly that game in Denver, he was a beast against a historically great defense.
     
  34. Seels

    Seels Member SoSH Member

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    Much as I've loved Gronk, he wasn't on the field in 2016, so he helped win one of the Super Bowls. If we're going beyond just the winning of the big games, I would say something like the following:

    1. Matt Light - Starting LT on 5 Super Bowl teams, 3 of them winning it. His poor game in 2007 was probably the main reason they lost -- instrumental in their 2000s offense.
    2. Seymour - Same as Light except on the defensive side and slightly shorter. Probably the best player from the 01-04 teams.
    3. Troy Brown - What can't he do? Edelman before Edelman.
    4. Edelman -- there's no question in my mind they win it and probably blow the Eagles out in the process if he's on the field last year. Most important/clutch player of the recent run.
    5. Gronk -- Speaks for himself
    6. McCourty - McCourty will be 8th all time in playoff games when he plays Sunday. Reasonably likely for him to move up to 4th, behind only Brady Manning and Rice, if he plays next year.
    7. Hightower - He has the defining defensive moments in 49 and 51 (aside from Butler's play). The leader of the 2010s defense.
    8. Law -- I'd have him higher except he was only on the team for the first 3 years of it (ok, so he was there in 04, but injured).
    9. Vince - The only thing aside from Brady that links the two eras.
    10. Vinatieri - I'm not trying to miss credit for him, but this has been a long era and he was only here for four years of it.
     
  35. loshjott

    loshjott Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    They missed the playoffs in 2008 with the same record that got them the #2 seed this year.
     
  36. Was (Not Wasdin)

    Was (Not Wasdin) family crest has godzilla SoSH Member

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    1. Troy Brown. My favorite Patriot of all time, Brady included. A football player's football player. He was "Do Your Job" 15 years before it was a slogan. The Patriots dynasty maybe never gets off the ground without his absolute single-handed destruction of a very good Pittsburgh team in the AFC Championship game in Pittsburgh during the first SB season-8 catches for 121 yards, the punt return for a TD, and the pickup of the blocked kick and subsequent lateral to Antwan Harris. Brady got hurt, Bledsoe was a bit shaky in relief, someone had to step up, and Brown delivered, Max in '84 style
    2. Adam Vinatieri. I'm a big believer in...mojo, confidence, whatever you want to call it. His kicks against Oakland, then against against St. Louis were so clutch. I've never understood why BB went for it on 4th down against the Giants in the first SB, on 4th and 13 from the Giants 31, up 7-3. I've always thought that he didn't have confidence in Ghost yet, and if AV was on the team he would have kicked the field goal.
    3. Dont'a Hightower. Won 2 BCS titles in three years in college, won two SB titles and played in 2 more (counting this year) in 7 years as a pro. Two all-time plays to help win SBs.
    4. Julian Edelman. Troy Brown 2.0. Just absurd playoff numbers, against the best competition.
    5. Tedy Bruschi. Leader of the defense on the early SB teams.
    6. Gronk. Best TE ever-have to wonder if they beat the Giants the second time around if Gronk was anything close to healthy.
    7. Richard Seymour. Pats' D line was so good during the early 2000s, Seymour was the anchor. One can only wonder if they would have won 4 straight instead of 3 out of 4 if they had drafted David Terrell or Koren Robinson.
    8. Rodney Harrison. Key piece of the secondary during his time here, brought some real physicality to the D during the 2003-2004 run.
    9. Devin McCourty. Anchor of the secondary for the second phase of the dynasty.
    10. Vince Wilfork. Along with Brady, bridges the old era and the new. Also, the overalls on Hard Knock.

    I saw Kevin Faulk on one list-other than him, every other player mentioned was either a Bill Parcells draft pick or a BB pick/free agent signing. Faulk, Damien Woody, Tebucky jones, anybody else from the Pete Carroll era really contribute to the first bunch of Super bowl wins?

    Matt Light was on a couple of lists, but no other OLs. Pats have generally had good OL play, without the "name" left tackle or other guys who get individual recognition.
     
  37. lars10

    lars10 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Did Lawyer Milloy make anyone's list? Or was he not quite good enough?
     
  38. SinesPointToYes

    SinesPointToYes Member SoSH Member

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    Is it me or is Kevin Faulk is not getting nearly enough respect on these lists? Certainly a top 10 contributor during the first half of BB/Brady. Or am I wrong? I just remember so many clutch 3rd down catches and blitz pick-ups.
     
  39. Koufax

    Koufax Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Was Not Wasdin gets my vote for the best list. Especially putting Troy Brown at the top. When he willingly played both sides of the ball, he earned a very special place in Patriots lore.
     
  40. m0ckduck

    m0ckduck Member SoSH Member

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    I lean towards an approach that blends Super Bowl equity with overall career value. Therefore, my list would look very similar to azsoxpatsfan’s. Bruschi is the omission I struggle with most, and Brown I would rank a bit higher.
     
  41. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Milloy only played a couple years in the BB/TB era and his 2002 season was that infamous one where he had like no INTs, no FF, no FR, etc. He certainly contributed to the first title but that’s about it.

    A guy who doesn’t make a top 10 list but might make a top 20 list is Patrick Chung since he’s now playing in his 5th SB since being drafted in 2009. I don’t think he has any signature playoff moments except for that failed fake punt but perhaps I’m forgetting some.
     
  42. PC Drunken Friar

    PC Drunken Friar Member SoSH Member

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    Kevin Faulk also caused Tom Brady to miss the 2008 season. Huge strike against him.
     
  43. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    I mentioned Milloy more due to 2003 than 2001... and because he kind of indirectly led to Rodney coming aboard
     
  44. Super Nomario

    Super Nomario Member SoSH Member

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    Patriots leaders in AV, '01-'18:

    Brady, obviously - 269
    1. Mankins - 114
    2. Light - 109
    3. Wilfork - 102
    4. Welker - 86
    5. Big Sey - 85
    6t. Gronk - 82
    6t. Koppen - 82
    8t. McCourty - 66
    8t. Vrabel - 66
    10. Bruschi - 65
    Near-misses: Faulk, Ninkovich, Solder (60), Edelman, Mayo, Vollmer (59), Hightower (53), Warren, Neal (50)
    Gost, Branch, Moss, Connolly, Troy Brown, Cannon, Kaczur, Law round out the top 25 (there's a four-way tie for 24)

    Harrison 29th, McGinest tied for 32nd, Butler tied for 39th, White 42nd, Vinatieri tied for 69th

    I don't love the way AV accounts for individual OL play or ST, so I would probably adjust based on that. This stat is also regular-season-only and obviously playoff performance matters. But an emphasis on playoff splash plays is necessarily going to depress OL, so I think people are selling guys like Mankins, Light, and Koppen way short. And I get that guys like Gronk and Sey maybe didn't have the standout performance in the playoffs, but they contributed a ton to being there in the first place. They can't just roll out anybody and win 12 games.

    I'm also not as inclined to dismiss the contributions of guys like Mankins and Welker just because they weren't on championship teams. There have only been ~25 500+ teams in NFL history and the Pats have four of them ('07 and '10-'12) and those guys were on all four. It's fair to blame them for some unfortunate playoff moments, but it's not fair to blame them because they were on the best offenses of the B/B era but some of the worst defenses. I get that this list is "important," not "best," but I don't think the importance drops to zero in seasons where they didn't lift a Lombardi at the end.
     
  45. Hendu At The Wall

    Hendu At The Wall Member SoSH Member

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    1. Troy Brown
    2. Adam Vinatieri
    3. Dont'a Hightower
    4. Kevin Faulk
    5. Ty Law
    6. Tedy Bruschi
    7. Julian Edelman
    8. Rob Gronkowski
    9. Richard Seymour
    10. Vince Wilfork (the bridge between 1st half and 2nd half)

    Can't believe I left out: McGinest, Harrison (helmet catch), Welker, Vrabel, Light, DMC, Slater.

    I was surprised to have Hightower so high, but I don't think we have the 2nd half of the dynasty without him.

    Edit: I guess same 10 as @PC Drunken Friar except for Hightower over Harrison & Faulk over McGinest.
     
    #45 Hendu At The Wall, Jan 30, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  46. Michelle34B

    Michelle34B lurker

    Messages:
    210
    1. Vince Wilfork
    2. Tedy Bruschi
    3. Troy Brown
    4. Matt Light
    5. Ty Law
    6. Rob Gronkowski
    7. Mike Vrabel
    8. Richard Seymour
    9. Adam Vinatieri
    10. Rodney Harrison
    11. Willie McGinest - I can't leave Willie off the list. He had so many big plays to earn the rings.


    Wes Welker gave everything he had in his body for six seasons.

    Celebrating what is: It's too early, but I could see Trey Flowers being in the conversation soon.
     
  47. Bergs

    Bergs Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    12,380
    Welker makes it if he catches the one ball and we win.
     
  48. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    58,371
     
  49. Bergs

    Bergs Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    12,380
    Catchable to (likely) win a Super Bowl. Brady has his.
     
  50. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    58,371
    The only guy who could catch that pass is
    JBJ!!!
     

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