Catching Hell

Van Everyman

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Vaz may also have something else going on – injury, etc. He was very competent offensively and defensively for a good chunk of last year and, as noted, the only regular 1-9 who actually had a better offensive year than the previous season.

Blake getting an inning behind the plate last night was almost certainly related to his agent’s trade request. I actually thought at the time that it might’ve been trolling putting him in w Wright as well, but in retrospect it’s more likely that Wright doesn’t have a preferred guy back there since he’s been out for almost 1.5 years.

If nothing else, I think this is exactly the right way to be using Blake – giving him a chance to catch a few innings and show he can actually play back there. Should end up making him a more desirable trade target and have the effect of getting guys on the staff more comfortable with him back there.

I know we like to kill the team for handling this wrong but it still has a chance of working out fine for everyone.
 

Plympton91

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So Blake got an inning last night in the 9th where he had the pleasure of catching Steven Wright (Cora trolling?) and Hembree. I thought he looked ok. He had a nice block on a Wright knuckler in the dirt and framed a called third strike to Chris Davis (a bit awkwardly) that was up in the zone where you often see pitches called balls. I didn't see anything technique-wise that said they couldn't give him a token start behind the dish. Have to think at this point that they just don't think his ankle can take the toll of catching full games.
I wonder if it was a bit of a tryout? There has to be at least some thought of replacing Pomeranz in the rotation with Wright after last night? Pairing Swihart with Wright might b a feasible way to get him in the lineup without upsetting the 4 other starters.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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I think it was more about making sure Sandy got a full day off and that Vaz didn’t go to the plate as the winning run in a 2 out game. Not saying having him catch Wright if he’s elevated to the rotation wouldn’t be a good solution, but I don’t think last night was anything more than situational moves trying to win the game.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Mentioned this in the game thread, but it's probably worth discussing here. Sandy started the year as pretty much exclusively Porcello's caddy. Sandy has caught all 10 of Porcello's starts, and through April Sandy pretty much only caught when Porcello would pitch. Of his first 9 starts 7 were Porcello starts.

Lately, though, Sandy has been catching Sale. He only caught one of Sale's first 7 starts but has since caught three of four. Very small sample, but Sale has been better with Sandy. He has averaged 5 2/3 innings per start with Vaz -- 6.0, 5.0, 6.0, 5.0, 6.0, 7.0, 5.0. He has averaged 7 2/3 with Sandy -- 7.0, 9.0, 7.0, 7.2. It's a small sample, but with Vaz struggling on both sides of the ball it might be easier for Cora to justify moving Sandy up the pecking order a bit.
 

tonyarmasjr

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Mentioned this in the game thread, but it's probably worth discussing here. Sandy started the year as pretty much exclusively Porcello's caddy. Sandy has caught all 10 of Porcello's starts, and through April Sandy pretty much only caught when Porcello would pitch. Of his first 9 starts 7 were Porcello starts.

Lately, though, Sandy has been catching Sale. He only caught one of Sale's first 7 starts but has since caught three of four. Very small sample, but Sale has been better with Sandy. He has averaged 5 2/3 innings per start with Vaz -- 6.0, 5.0, 6.0, 5.0, 6.0, 7.0, 5.0. He has averaged 7 2/3 with Sandy -- 7.0, 9.0, 7.0, 7.2. It's a small sample, but with Vaz struggling on both sides of the ball it might be easier for Cora to justify moving Sandy up the pecking order a bit.
Not necessarily disagreeing with anything, but some of Sale's (and everybody's) earlier starts were limited to lower pitch counts/fewer innings as they ramped up.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Not necessarily disagreeing with anything, but some of Sale's (and everybody's) earlier starts were limited to lower pitch counts/fewer innings as they ramped up.
That's a good point. Cora was pretty clearly limiting Sale in his first four starts of the year where he threw no more than 93 pitches. All four of these were Vaz starts, and Sale averaged 5.5 innings per start -- two of 5.0 and two of 6.0. Cora took the reins off Sale in his fifth game, and since that start Sale has pitched into the 100s in six of seven starts (and 96 in the other).

But even if you ignore the first four games, Sale has still gone deeper with Sandy than with Vaz. In the three starts with Vaz since when I'm speculating that Cora decided to let Sale pitch deeper games, Sale has gone 6.0, 7.0, and 5.0 -- for an average of 6.0. In the four games in that period with Sandy, Sale has gone 7.0, 7.0, 9.0, and 7.2 -- for an average of 7 2/3. You could also look at it a bit differently by looking at number of pitches per inning with Sandy versus Vaz. Sale has averaged 16.675 pitches per inning to Vaz and 14.35 pitches per inning to Sandy.

These are obviously very small differences and it's early. Vaz caught the Yankees game, which had a lot of runners on base for Sale and that game alone can be skewing the numbers a bit. But, it's worth watching I think. And, in the end, the numbers that matter the most are these: Sandy started the year catching Sale only once in 7 games but has since caught him 3 of 4. And the Red Sox are 3-1 when Sandy catches Sale and 3-4 when Vaz does. Cora may dislike personal catchers. But in the end if these trends continue I think Sale may decide he has a preference that makes it tougher for Cora to say no.
 

Pozo the Clown

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Vaz may also have something else going on – injury, etc...
I've been wondering about that, too. Vaz has made a number of mental mistakes this year. For example: Getting thrown out at 3rd as part of a double steal with Mookie at the plate (Cora admitted that Vaz went on his own and that it is a mistake); throwing all the way to 2nd on an opponent's double steal that allowed the runner from 3rd to score (Cora admitted it was a mistake),; and then there's the play last night (link below). On those (and perhaps other) occasions this year, it seems as if his head is elsewhere instead of in the game.

https://www.mlb.com/video/rays-nab-nunez-at-the-plate/c-2075521983
 

Van Everyman

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From Pete Abraham's notes:
Eduardo Nunez has started 40 of the 50 games. He will return to a utility role with Pedroia coming back.

“He likes that, moving around,” Cora said. “He’s at ease that he doesn’t have to grind it out at second the whole time now. He can move around and the real Eduardo Nunez will come out.”

Cora said a corresponding roster move would not be announced until Friday. But Nunez and Brock Holt are safe based on how Cora spoke about his plans to use them off the bench.

It is expected the Red Sox will trade third-string catcher Blake Swihart or designate him for assignment with the intention of then trading him.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2018/05/24/dustin-pedroia-could-finished-with-pawtucket-rehab/z9IvUN3ST8UTcp3DX6PUxO/story.html

If true, this will be an unfortunate, if understandable, conclusion to Swihart's career w the Red Sox.
 

capecodjr41

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Leon is slashing at .254/.306/.388 now with 2HR in 72 PA. His wOBA is .304, and wRC+ is 87.

Vazquez is at .194/.234/.231 with zero HR, and a wOBA of .211, and wRC+ of 23 in 142 PA.

Vazquez is a - 1.0 WAR player so far in 2018. Leon is a + 0.1 WAR before his game last night. B-Ref hadn’t updated Tuesday’s game into his WAR yet.

At what point does Leon become the starter? It seems he should be getting at least half the starts moving forward until something changes.
 

dhappy42

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Leon is slashing at .254/.306/.388 now with 2HR in 72 PA. His wOBA is .304, and wRC+ is 87.

Vazquez is at .194/.234/.231 with zero HR, and a wOBA of .211, and wRC+ of 23 in 142 PA.

Vazquez is a - 1.0 WAR player so far in 2018. Leon is a + 0.1 WAR before his game last night. B-Ref hadn’t updated Tuesday’s game into his WAR yet.

At what point does Leon become the starter? It seems he should be getting at least half the starts moving forward until something changes.
Vaz’s L/R split is .219/.186.
Leon’s L/R split is .190/.238

Dunno about pitcher-catcher pairings, but it’d make a ton of sense to start Leon against righties. Seems obvious and would raise the composite BA from the catcher position above the Mendoza Line.

Edit: the above splits are apparently pre-last night’s game.
 
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Red(s)HawksFan

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Correct me if my memory is faulty, but didn't Leon's production fall off the cliff last time they made him the regular starter
I'm not sure one is related to the other. When he first came back in 2016 with his hot bat, he was slow rolled into the regular starter position and ran with it for about two months before he came down to earth in September. As a result of that, he started last year as the default starter until Vazquez played his way into more starts. Seems like it's swinging back in the other direction again. If he's going to be hitting like he did last night, he definitely needs to be making at least 3 of every 5 starts for a while. When he cools off again, maybe it will coincide with a Vazquez surge.
 

AB in DC

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It's been almost a month since Leon caught for anyone other than Sale and Porcello. Why not move him up from 2 days every 5 to 3 days per 5? Do pitchers get to veto this? (I remember Cora didn't want to have either of them locked in on catching only certain starters, but obviously that's gone away.)
 

uk_sox_fan

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Among catchers with at least 40 PA's, Sandy is now first in RC+ (180) over the past 30 days. Unfortunately, he just barely qualifies as he's had exactly 40 PA's (and so he's tied 12th in WAR with 0.5). Vaz is 39th out of 40 in RC+ (3) and dead-last in WAR (-0.6) and has 64 PA's.

edit: to clarify that's 40 PA's in the past 30 days
 
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AB in DC

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It's been almost a month since Leon caught for anyone other than Sale and Porcello. Why not move him up from 2 days every 5 to 3 days per 5? Do pitchers get to veto this? (I remember Cora didn't want to have either of them locked in on catching only certain starters, but obviously that's gone away.)
So Cora did exactly that, starting Leon with Pomeranz on the mound. But it sounds like Pomeranz wasn't too happy with this. Is there any way to read this other than as a dig at Leon??
"I made a bad pitch -- it was a ball that Correa hit out, but it was the wrong pitch choice," Pomeranz said. "Did the same thing in the playoffs, basically the same spot."
 

Pozo the Clown

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So Cora did exactly that, starting Leon with Pomeranz on the mound. But it sounds like Pomeranz wasn't too happy with this. Is there any way to read this other than as a dig at Leon??
I think you're reading too much into it. If Pom thought it was the wrong pitch to throw at the time, he could have shaken Leon off.
 

Dropo's moose

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Cervelli in Pitt an option? 32 year old who can get on base. 11 mill owed in 19, not peanuts while up against the tax but could be a bridge to the Prospect Baldwin in Salem who has shown the ability to hit for power
 

RIrooter09

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Do you know how close the Pirates are to a WC berth right now?

They aren't downgrading their team unless things change dramatically.
And Cervelli has been the best catcher in baseball so far this year. There are plenty of teams that have a need and can afford to pay more than the Red Sox.
 

Cesar Crespo

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If Christian Vazquez qualified, his ISO of .085 in 876 PA would be the 3rd lowest of all time, only better than Omar Vizquel and Bert Campaneris. His ISO of .037 this season would be the 5th worst of all time, min. of 300 PA.

edit: Just to pile on some more, his career OPS+ of 68 would be 8th worst all time. And that includes last year! His OPS+ of 22 this year would be the 3rd worst of all time, only better than Will White and George Baker, in 1879 and 1884, respectively, at least 300 PA. His OPS of .452 would be the WORST ever, min 300 PA.
 
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sean1562

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yea, starting to think vaz might not be a ML caliber player. his defense is not nearly as good as I expected
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Royals - Salvador Perez. Zero chance.
I wonder about this. Perez is signed for the next three years at a pretty substantial (though quite reasonable) price. The Royals appear to be a bad, old team, and by the time they have a shot at being good again, Perez will likely be a 30+ free agent. He seems tradeable to me. But I don't know the KC market or what role Perez plays in fan perceptions.

What it would take, and whether we have it, is another question, of course.
 
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Cesar Crespo

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yea, starting to think vaz might not be a ML caliber player. his defense is not nearly as good as I expected
He could be a generational defender at this point and not be ML caliber. You'd have to expect him to get better, because it is hard to get worse.

This is the ultimate in cherry picking, but he had a 29 game stretch last year where he hit .400/.441/.611 in 102 PA on a .459 BAbip.

The rest of the year: .253/.292/.319 in 243 PA.

2014: .240/.308/.309 in 201 PA
2016: .227/.277/.308 in 184 PA
2018: .188/.228/.225 in 146 PA

That is 221 games and 774 PA of absolute suck.
 

rhswanzey

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The Mets lost both their starting catcher and backup catcher and played Tomas Nido, a 24 YO who hasn't conquered AA in more than 400 PA there, who hit .159/.208/.182 in 48 PA, and Jose Lobaton, a 33 YO journeyman who hit .152/.250/.239 in 52 PA.

I am still confused as to why people are focusing on our catching situation as if it is a problem. We have two competent MLB catchers on the active roster, and we're lucky, because some teams have none, and that's a huge problem if you're trying to win now. If this team doesn't make the postseason, it's not going to be because its catchers didn't hit. It used to be extremely common for teams to carry a couple black hole bats at positions where production was scarce. This team will live and die with its star level players.

Why focus on something that we aren't going to allocate resources to addressing because we can't meaningfully change it?

Should I have been excited about Devin Mesoraco?
 

chrisfont9

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The Mets lost both their starting catcher and backup catcher and played Tomas Nido, a 24 YO who hasn't conquered AA in more than 400 PA there, who hit .159/.208/.182 in 48 PA, and Jose Lobaton, a 33 YO journeyman who hit .152/.250/.239 in 52 PA.

I am still confused as to why people are focusing on our catching situation as if it is a problem. We have two competent MLB catchers on the active roster, and we're lucky, because some teams have none, and that's a huge problem if you're trying to win now. If this team doesn't make the postseason, it's not going to be because its catchers didn't hit. It used to be extremely common for teams to carry a couple black hole bats at positions where production was scarce. This team will live and die with its star level players.

Why focus on something that we aren't going to allocate resources to addressing because we can't meaningfully change it?

Should I have been excited about Devin Mesoraco?
Agree. Also it's a difficult thing to try to change in mid-season. Catchers and pitchers need to get to know each other, or so I gather, which can only really happen in winter/spring training. So unless there's a clear and substantial upgrade available -- which I seriously doubt, given the Sox' assets -- then you have to ride it out like 25 or so other teams whose catching is passable or worse.
 

lapa

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Another nod from me. I don't know why anyone should expect a lineup without holes it's just not happening. The Sox score tons of runs. JBJ saves lots and has now even hit a bit. Vazquez and Leon are clearly more than good enough when you consider the team as a whole. Waddya gonna do, deal with it seems to be options A B and C. Like most things in life most discontent stems from false expectations jarring against reality. We got 2.5 guys who can catch, maybe they're scuffling at replacement level, it's ok
 

Max Power

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I think a lot of people are looking at the Yankees when they say something has to be done to improve the situation. Having Gary Sanchez catch allows them to put together a lineup without a waste of a spot. That's very much the exception around baseball, especially this year.
 

Dropo's moose

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Do you know how close the Pirates are to a WC berth right now?

They aren't downgrading their team unless things change dramatically.

Youth movement which Pitt always falls back on WC contention or not. They traded Cole for peanuts. They have a younger cheaper option in Diaz.
 

sean1562

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I know this isn't really Red Sox talk, but they traded 2 years of Cole for 6 years of Moran(their starting 3B) and 5 years of Joe Musgrove, who is at least their #3 guy. IDK why that trade was so maligned when it happened, it seemed like a lot of yankees fans upset that they wouldn't trade them Cole for Frazier straight up, even though the Pirates #1 prospect is an OF.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Youth movement which Pitt always falls back on WC contention or not. They traded Cole for peanuts. They have a younger cheaper option in Diaz.
You do know the Pirates have made the postseason three of the past five years, don't you?

So I don't know when this "always falls back" stuff happens, but not with the current regime.
 

rhswanzey

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I know this isn't really Red Sox talk, but they traded 2 years of Cole for 6 years of Moran(their starting 3B) and 5 years of Joe Musgrove, who is at least their #3 guy. IDK why that trade was so maligned when it happened, it seemed like a lot of yankees fans upset that they wouldn't trade them Cole for Frazier straight up, even though the Pirates #1 prospect is an OF.
Because one consequence of the rise of the online prospect community/cottage industry the past 10-15 years is probably discounting bust rate of prospects and leaning away from post hype types. Moran has a first round pedigree and Musgrove was comfortably in the back half of top 100 lists like BA's (#83 just two years ago). Neither was a can't-miss guy, but the same people unhappy with the deal would probably have been satisfied with the same type of players, except guys actually named on this year's top whatever lists.

The Pirates would have to be thrilled with having a cost-controlled 2-3 WAR peak from either player, but it's totally fair to wonder if the probability of star level upside beyond that is negligible, which makes it totally fair to pan the deal. I mean, Cole is clearly breaking out and cost-controlled for multiple seasons. It's tough to trade that kind of player without getting a can't-miss type back. It must be hard pulling for a small market team.
 

grimshaw

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The Mets lost both their starting catcher and backup catcher and played Tomas Nido, a 24 YO who hasn't conquered AA in more than 400 PA there, who hit .159/.208/.182 in 48 PA, and Jose Lobaton, a 33 YO journeyman who hit .152/.250/.239 in 52 PA.

I am still confused as to why people are focusing on our catching situation as if it is a problem. We have two competent MLB catchers on the active roster, and we're lucky, because some teams have none, and that's a huge problem if you're trying to win now.
We have one competent catcher, and one catcher who is hitting worse than Marc Sullivan. He is worst in baseball in fWAR among all 60 catchers with 50 PA or more. That's why this thread exists.

I'm as patient as anyone and think there is a lot to intangibles that familiar backstops bring, but Vazquez has been the worst of the worst. He earned the extension last year, but is not living up to it so far.
 

rhswanzey

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We have one competent catcher, and one catcher who is hitting worse than Marc Sullivan. He is worst in baseball in fWAR among all 60 catchers with 50 PA or more. That's why this thread exists.

I'm as patient as anyone and think there is a lot to intangibles that familiar backstops bring, but Vazquez has been the worst of the worst. He earned the extension last year, but is not living up to it so far.
I think we have two competent catchers. I don't think two months should substantially affect our valuations on our younger players, who are volatile by nature. If you go month by month on players who are in the majors for defense/positional scarcity first and foremost, you're going to find cases like this. Jose Iglesias isn't and will never be a star level starter, but he's a reasonably competent one. When a player with that degree of true talent level on offense has a down month, it's going to look worse than a bad month or two from, say, Devers or Bogaerts.

Before Leon's May, some of us would have said we had zero competent catchers on hand. Vazquez just hit his first homer of the season - do we get to call him a competent MLB level catcher yet? Players are streaky; they are never as great as they look during the torrid months (Vazquez's August 2017 at .385/.448/.596), or as bad as they look when cold. Unless you think Vazquez's YTD is actually his true talent level at the plate, and not a below average offensive player going through an especially cold stretch, then I'd say we are setting the bar for replacement level MLB catcher way too high. Just take a look at some of the guys currently rostered as a second catcher around the sport.
 

Pozo the Clown

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If Christian Vazquez qualified, his ISO of .085 in 876 PA would be the 3rd lowest of all time, only better than Omar Vizquel and Bert Campaneris. His ISO of .037 this season would be the 5th worst of all time, min. of 300 PA.

edit: Just to pile on some more, his career OPS+ of 68 would be 8th worst all time. And that includes last year! His OPS+ of 22 this year would be the 3rd worst of all time, only better than Will White and George Baker, in 1879 and 1884, respectively, at least 300 PA. His OPS of .452 would be the WORST ever, min 300 PA.
Glad the Sox gave him that extension!
 

AB in DC

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Over the last thirty days, per Fangraphs:

Leon (42 PA) 139 wRC+
Vazquez (62 PA) 54 wRC+
Swihart (28 PA) -2 wRC+

by comparison,
JBJ (77 PA) 93 wRC+
Devers (101 PA) 48 wRC+
Hanley (61 PA) 32 wRC+
 

tonyarmasjr

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Over the last thirty days, per Fangraphs:

Leon (42 PA) 139 wRC+
Vazquez (62 PA) 54 wRC+
Swihart (28 PA) -2 wRC+

by comparison,
JBJ (77 PA) 93 wRC+
Devers (101 PA) 48 wRC+
Hanley (61 PA) 32 wRC+
Last 14 days:

Leon (23 PA) 145 wRC+
Vazquez (27 PA) 116 wRC+
Swihart (23 PA) 24 wRC+

JBJ (44 PA) 120 wRC+
Devers (44 PA) 36 wRC+
Hanley (4 PA) -100 wRC+ - that's a thing!
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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Over the last thirty days, per Fangraphs:

Leon (42 PA) 139 wRC+
Vazquez (62 PA) 54 wRC+
Swihart (28 PA) -2 wRC+

by comparison,
JBJ (77 PA) 93 wRC+
Devers (101 PA) 48 wRC+
Hanley (61 PA) 32 wRC+
And also:
Holt (52 PA) 105 wRC+
Nunez (94 PA) 82 wRC+

Even assuming you keep running Devers out there to take his lumps as part of the growth process, it’s good that the team’s got a couple other relatively league-average options. Pedroia can take his time coming back, but hopefully Mookie’s oblique is all ready to roll.
 

oumbi

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I would prefer the title for now to be "Catching purgatory." Not hell, but not heaven either.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I have faith that Sandy Leon will be close to or slightly better than his career averages which is passable at the C spot. I have very little faith in Christian Vazquez despite his last couple games. I would love to be wrong though. He did improve his OPS by 54 points last night, and by 80 points in the last 3 games so it's a start. If we can get a combined .650 OPS from the spot, I'd be content.
 

TFisNEXT

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I would prefer the title for now to be "Catching purgatory." Not hell, but not heaven either.
Yeah the overall numbers are still terrible, but the Red Sox at least have moved out of the basement, even if not by much.

With the recent hitting by Leon and Vazquez, the Sox catchers are now at a wRC+ of 54 on the season. That is 3rd worst in the league now barely ahead of the Twinkies (52) and Orioles (53). Cleveland is only sitting at a wRC+ of 64 for their catchers, so we're not the only contender off to a rough start offensively for that position.
 

tonyarmasjr

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I would prefer the title for now to be "Catching purgatory." Not hell, but not heaven either.
Well, they're still ranked 37th (Leon - 78 wRC+) and 51st (Vazquez - 41 wRC+) among 62 catchers with at least 50 PA. I'd say we're probably moving through the 4th circle of hell.
 
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Red(s)HawksFan

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I have faith that Sandy Leon will be close to or slightly better than his career averages which is passable at the C spot. I have very little faith in Christian Vazquez despite his last couple games. I would love to be wrong though. He did improve his OPS by 54 points last night, and by 80 points in the last 3 games so it's a start. If we can get a combined .650 OPS from the spot, I'd be content.
Just out of curiosity, why the faith in Leon but not Vazquez? Just a gut thing? I only wonder because over their careers, minors included, Vazquez has the better offensive numbers overall.

I don't expect either of them to turn into Buster Posey all of a sudden but I think both can be better than they've been (overall, not just the last few days/weeks). A .650 OPS out of the pair is about the floor of where I think they'll be at the end of the year. Though I'm not delusional enough to think they'll top .700 either.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Just out of curiosity, why the faith in Leon but not Vazquez? Just a gut thing? I only wonder because over their careers, minors included, Vazquez has the better offensive numbers overall.

I don't expect either of them to turn into Buster Posey all of a sudden but I think both can be better than they've been (overall, not just the last few days/weeks). A .650 OPS out of the pair is about the floor of where I think they'll be at the end of the year. Though I'm not delusional enough to think they'll top .700 either.
Leon has shown more pop at the major league level over the last 2 1/2 years. I don't think either guy is going to hit for average and neither walk that much so it comes down to power. Vazquez showed the ability to draw a walk in the minors, oddly enough.

Also, Leon has better offensive numbers in the majors, though not by much, and the edge is mostly due to him having a .116 ISO vs Christian's .092.
Vaz: .250/.300/.342 OPS+ 71
Leon: .244/.307/.360 OPS+ 76

Leon has also been slightly better since joining the Redsox: .251/.311/.374, although if you ignore his 2016, those numbers drop to .231/.292/.357. Neither are very good.

When you say .650 is the floor, do you mean from this point on? Or do you think they'll hit well enough the rest of the way to raise that OPS to .650?
 

Cesar Crespo

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Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Is there a website you can use to find out rather easily what the Redsox catchers are slashing this year and in how many PA? I wonder what they would have to hit the rest of the season to raise their OPS to .650 or .700.

Between Vaz and Leon, they have combined for 242 PA for a .220/.264/.313 line, or a .577 OPS

There are 100 games left. Let's assume 4 PA per game for easy maths. To finish with a .650 OPS for the year, the Sox catchers would have to produce at a .693 level over the next 400 PA. To finish with a .700 OPS, they would have to produce at a .774 level.
 
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Savin Hillbilly

loves the secret sauce
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2007
18,783
The wrong side of the bridge....