I am probably reading something wrong. I thought the reason you got cap savings for waiving him was that part of it wasn't guaranteed.
Cap Clearing trade?
- Thread starter Cellar-Door
- Start date
Mickey's contract is non-guaranteed. They could release him and sign him later to a minimum contract if they were so inclined.
In terms of a sign and trade, is there any way to stay over the cap by potentially using Olynyk as salary ballast? That would allow then to keep the mid-level and bi-annual exceptions in place to fill out the roster after completing the Hayward trade. Seems like that would be more beneficial from a roster construction standpoint than just moving players to open a max slot.
Assuming they haven't renounced him, yes. This would, furthermore, let them sign a FA into their current cap space (about $20 million if they renounce all the other holds except Olynyk, which is a lot better than getting the exceptions). But, they'd have to get to about $24 million in contracts for Hayward between whatever Olynyk gets paid and whoever else they send out. Whether that works realistically depends on Olynyk's market rate. If he is a $15 million/year player it's pretty easy to just pair him and Bradley. If he's a $10 million/year player it gets a lot harder.
Thanks. My assumption before the start of free agency was that Olynyk would get at least $15 or $16M, probably more, but the market has completely cratered for mid-tier players this summer. I'm not sure he gets much more than $10M if he remains on the market.
Stories are starting to percolate out of NYC that Smart has been offered to the Knicks. No word on the ask back from the Knicks. Would love to snag Hernangomez but that seems unlikely. More likely, it's Marshall Plumlee and his non-guaranteed contract and a 2nd round pick (note: NYK does not have its own 2nd round picks until 2022 but has two 2019 2nd round picks (worst two of ORL/CLE/HOU))
That doesn't make a lick of sense for the Celtics. I know we're going to be disappointed with whatever return we get on this next trade but that is literally giving Smart away and to a division opponent at that.
Mark MurphyVerified account @Murf56 10m10 minutes ago
Source says Hayward headed to Boston - press conference expected in next 2 days. Says Crowder S&T with Utah close, other details unclear.
Source says Hayward headed to Boston - press conference expected in next 2 days. Says Crowder S&T with Utah close, other details unclear.
I'd think Smart and one of our own, non-premium first rounders for Hernangomez might work?
This is very weird to me. I know Crowder is undersized, but with his bulk he was the best out of our wings to match on bigger dudes. The return will be interesting and likely underwhelming.
Crowder is the best of the three but he's also the most redundant with Hayward, Brown and Tatum all on the roster. If the trade offers coming in are light, it's probably just best to do a Crowder-Hayward sign and trade straight up. It gives Utah a little something after losing Hayward and that goodwill keeps the relationship open for future trades down the line.
A division opponent, but not a good one.
And it's hard to say we're "giving him away" when there's no actual return rumored except for what a poster thinks may happen.
Tough to make a trade when you have no leverage. I hope they get something but am not expecting much.
Yeah, I would think/hope that my Nuggets, who obviously aren't in the division, would easily top that offer. They could use a player like Smart.
Firstly this doesn't work contract wise. Favors counts more against the cap than Crowder. Secondly, Favors is a good but not great big man. Why should the Jazz give anything of value? They got the C's over a barrel here.
Could there be a third team involved. Giving Crowder away doesn't make sense. He is locked up on short money.
At this point I think I'd happily do Crowder for Hayward S&T and swap rights in any of the next three years with top 10 protection or something.
I have to admit I'm surprised Danny didn't have something better lined up. I know that it's easy to be a homer but I really feel like the rest of the league is looking at the Celtics and saying "I'm only dealing with you if I can claim I won the trade."
I have to admit I'm surprised Danny didn't have something better lined up. I know that it's easy to be a homer but I really feel like the rest of the league is looking at the Celtics and saying "I'm only dealing with you if I can claim I won the trade."
?? Favors makes more money than Crowder so that doesn't actually help the cap situation. Further, Favors is an actual asset and the Jazz have the leverage here, not the Celtics. They aren't giving up things to the Celtics to help them get Hayward.
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I think there is some leverage--because they can trade any of a number of players, and they have some quality (assuming we're talking about Bradley, Crowder, and Smart) that some team will want.
I suspect Crowder has quietly demanded he be traded. He didn't seem to happy when there were trade rumors around Butler and other wings during the seasons, and it will be tough for him to have the same role with all those wings.
If that is what it is I'll take the upgrade and move on. It's a big win even if this is a straight S&T with JC going back. Much more curious to see how the rest of the roster shakes out.
I remember watching the playoffs and commenting about how amazing it would be to upgrade Crowder to Hayward. So exciting to watch it start to play out.
Not me. I don't see Danny giving Crowder away for nothing. Maybe he does, but that will surprise me.
What can the Jazz send back if we trade them KO and Crowder? Last I read was that KO had the qualifying offer rescinded but he wasn't renounced (but I don't know if that is correct).
The only pieces the Jazz might send back that are attractive are Favors and Rodney Hood, but I doubt they give us either of them for Crowder or even Crowder + Olynyk. I guess Exum had potential once, but hes had so many injuries and generally looked bad.
Yeah, exactly. I figured that they'd get a verbal agreement from Hayward and then execute the trade within hours. I know there's nothing Danny can do about it now, but it's very awkward having an impending trade just hanging out there over everyone's head. It shouldn't be coming as a huge surprise that they landed the only FA they pursued while knowing they'd need this trade to make it happen.
The Salt Lake Tribune is reporting, according to league sources, that Hayward and his agent, Mark Bartelstein, have agreed to help facilitate a sign-and-trade between BOS and UTA.
What are the possible sign-and-trade options with UTA? (Note that Donovan Mitchell and Tony Bradley cannot be included, as they have signed their contracts already.)
1. Crowder for Hayward and a protected first-round pick. This is perhaps the fairest deal for both teams but probably unlikely to occur.
2. Crowder for Hayward and a second-round pick. This is probably the most likely to occur.
3. Crowder for Hayward and Joel Bolomboy, Elijah Millsap or Raul Neto. Essentially the same as 2, except you know who the player is. Bolomboy would make the most sense positionally, but the Celtics would likely be better off the empty roster spot and flexibility to fill it on their own. Bolomboy's 17-18 contract is partially guaranteed and his 18-19 contract is non-guaranteed. Millsap and Neto have non-guaranteed 17-18 contracts.
4. Crowder for Hayward. Really, Danny, we're just going to give Crowder away? I'd rather give him to almost anyone else, then.
5. Crowder for Hayward and Rodney Hood. Can't see this happening, even if the numbers work.
6. Crowder and Bradley for Hayward and Derrick Favors. Same.
What are the possible sign-and-trade options with UTA? (Note that Donovan Mitchell and Tony Bradley cannot be included, as they have signed their contracts already.)
1. Crowder for Hayward and a protected first-round pick. This is perhaps the fairest deal for both teams but probably unlikely to occur.
2. Crowder for Hayward and a second-round pick. This is probably the most likely to occur.
3. Crowder for Hayward and Joel Bolomboy, Elijah Millsap or Raul Neto. Essentially the same as 2, except you know who the player is. Bolomboy would make the most sense positionally, but the Celtics would likely be better off the empty roster spot and flexibility to fill it on their own. Bolomboy's 17-18 contract is partially guaranteed and his 18-19 contract is non-guaranteed. Millsap and Neto have non-guaranteed 17-18 contracts.
4. Crowder for Hayward. Really, Danny, we're just going to give Crowder away? I'd rather give him to almost anyone else, then.
5. Crowder for Hayward and Rodney Hood. Can't see this happening, even if the numbers work.
6. Crowder and Bradley for Hayward and Derrick Favors. Same.
How do we know what Ainge has or doesn't have lined up? How do we know that he isn't playing two or three teams off of one another and, in typical Ainge fashion, angling for the biggest return? Or lining up a multi-team deal?
And why is it "awkward?" Maybe it's awkward for AB/Crowder/Smart, but not really for anyone else. And it's possible that Ainge has floated all 3 names but is really only discussing one, and that the Celtics all know which one. So it'd only be awkward for that one guy, and only for a limited period of time. And no more awkward than the month of July is for MLB players on short deals and crappy teams. That's the nature of the sports profession.
And why is it "awkward?" Maybe it's awkward for AB/Crowder/Smart, but not really for anyone else. And it's possible that Ainge has floated all 3 names but is really only discussing one, and that the Celtics all know which one. So it'd only be awkward for that one guy, and only for a limited period of time. And no more awkward than the month of July is for MLB players on short deals and crappy teams. That's the nature of the sports profession.
I mean, I think it's awkward for most of the team because they're probably all close. Of course it doesn't really matter at the end of the day and everyone is a professional, but I'd think this is something that they'd prefer to wrap up sooner than later. Take these quotes from Jaylen for example (which I could be reading too much into).
This is where I am too. My guess is that (a) the Celtics view Crowder as the most redundant out of the Smart, Bradley and Crowder trio and (b) he has expressed a desire to be traded. Now obviously he has a valuable contract so you don't want to give him up for nothing but by the same token you don't want him being a malcontent all year. I do find it odd though that, as others have mentioned, Danny didn't anticipate this problem and have a variety of contingencies in place, but, to be fair to him, it's possible he did have a trade lined up in principle pending Hayward's coming to the Celtics but then the other team backed out of it for one or more of a variety of reasons.
The only things that have leaked, in a league where everything leaks, are discussions with UTA and NYK. Sure, in Danny we trust, but the Celtics have virtually no leverage and that is abundantly clear at this point.
Out of your outlined scenarios I have to imagine scenario 1 is the most likely. Ainge may not have much leverage but there's no reason to rush into a trade where you are giving away an asset like Crowder for a 2nd round pick.
I am thinking Crowder for Hayward and a top 12 protected 1st round pick.
But there is a reason; that's the problem. The Celtics have to clear this cap space in the next few days, and other teams know that. Thus the leverage problem.
I don't know how much leverage he has. If I have a valuable coupon worth a dollar that expires soon and you offer me 50 cents, someone else offers me 60 cents, I go back to you and tell you your offer isn't good enough. You can tell me too bad, but are you going to walk away without knowing whether you could get that $1 coupon for 75 cents? That just seems like poor, self-defeating negotiation. Now, that can happen, but Ainge just has to find the Billy Beane out there who gets it and is willing to "win" the deal by a less egregious margin. Ainge wants to get 80 cents instead of 50. Hence the delay.
Then wouldn't you give away 1 year of Bradley before giving away 3 years of Crowder?
But isn't this only a problem if there is just one bidder? And if that's the case, the Cs wouldn't have much leverage with or without a time constant.
Doesn't the S&T mean they only have to get rid of one of the 3 though? I thought that was the selling point. Trading him for "nothing" allows them to keep Bradley and Smart. If I'm wrong, what is the benefit to the Celtics to do it as a S&T?
But why does Utah make that trade? That seems like a ton to give up for Jae Crowder, even with his cheap contract. It's not like he is going to come in and replace Heywood and keep Utah in the playoff hunt
The funny thing is we all killed Pritchard for getting such a crappy return for George because he wanted him out of the East, and I bet Danny is having the same exact thought with Jae. The thought of giving away Crowder, especially on that contract, must be killing him, and then add in the thought of facing him multiple times a season. Ugh.
Time is running out. They have to get Hayward signed before the end of the weekend, for all practical purposes. Ainge and Stevens flew back to Boston this morning for the rollout. I'd expect an announcement in the next 48 hours.
I'll be really surprised if they get a 1st for Crowder from UTA. My best guess is one or two 2nd round picks and that's it.
Am I the only one having trouble seeing time constraints? His agent knew the scenario, it was most likely discussed and I find it hard to believe either side is going to renege on the deal. I understand the Deandre Jordan paranoia, I just don't particularly buy into it.
Have we determined that we're not sure about whether the S&T gives us greater cap flexibility than simply trading Crowder first and then signing Hayward? If it does, then that's obviously part of the "value" we get in doing the sign and trade (i.e. that avoids the need to make another trade/salary cut).
Yeah I think the real problem here is just that there are not that many viable trading partners. To clear cap space you need to trade to a team with cap room to absorb one of the contracts, so that right there already cuts by around half your possible trading partners. Then if you put additional parameters on it (e.g. not trading within the division) that narrows the field even more. So as hard as it may be to believe, it's possible that whatever crap Utah sends back with Hayward for Crowder is the best the Celtics could have done under the circumstances. (That won't stop Twitter and sports radio from another round of how much Danny sucks, though.)