Canada out!

Stanley Steamer

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So, I'm just going to throw this out there, as food for thought. This is a knowledgeable hockey crowd, and I'm curious what you think.

As it stands right now, none of the Canadian teams would qualify for the NHL playoffs this year.
That's just 7 out of 30 teams, sure, but I think it represents something more.

I'm sure most of you are aware that the last time a Canadian team won the Stanley Cup was 1993, and then it was the Stinkin' Habs, so it doesn't really count. Since then, Montreal has been the only consistently good team, while a few other teams have made unlikely runs to the final only to end up falling short.
Most of you also know that hockey means a little bit more to the average Canadian than to the average American. It truly is part of the national psyche up here. Now of course, hockey is experienced on all different levels in Canada, from minors to juniors to pro, and there is the chance to look away from the NHL and still enjoy the opportunity to see your team win. I think that's partly why the World Juniors are such a big deal up here, and just about off the radar in the US. That said, I'm becoming more and more convinced that Canada deserves better.

Just for the sake of full disclosure, I'm going to declare that I am a dual citizen of the two countries, have lived almost equal time in each place, am a Bruins fan, and cheer for Canada in national competitions.

There are plenty of good hockey towns in the US, including Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Philly, Minnesota, and almost even NY. The NHL is a league with excellent history, even if the current administration lacks a certain "je ne sais quoi", and every team deserves it's day. As all Red Sox fans know, sometimes you have to endure a little pain for a while before getting to sigh in relief. But I get the sense that the league decreasingly represents Canada, in an attempt to broaden it's market to the south and beyond. It makes me wonder if the playing field is really level, and with the Canadian dollar plummeting, it may only get worse.

I've toyed with the idea of the Canadian teams leaving and forming a Canadian NHL. Sure, you'd want to invite the Original Six to join too, but why would they want to go? Of course, it's unrealistic. There's too much money to be made and lost by taking unnecessary chances. Yet it's tempting to think about. The existing NHL cities have enough of a fan base to support a junior team too, while opportunities exist to expand to Quebec, Halifax, southern Ontario, possibly Saskatchewan or Kelowna, BC, to name a few. The scale of the arenas would suffer a bit, but I think you could still get 12-15K in attendance in most places. And then fans would have something to cheer about come May. As it is, fans form playoff pools to maintain interest, follow players they know or have a second team they root for. The Stanley Cup is still a big deal, even if Tampa Bay is playing Nashville. But if the NHL no longer represents Canada in the playoffs, I just wonder if there will be push back at some point.

Sorry for the long-winded post. I know as an argument there are clear reasons why this can't or won't happen. But if you are looking for topics to discuss, have at it.
 

mwonow

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I'm a dual citizen with roughly equal time spent in each country as well, and with time spent in both Montreal and Toronto. You're right, there's no doubt that hockey means more here than in the US - even in Boston, though Boston, as you point out, is a real hockey town (fwiw, I'm a Bruins fan too).

With regards to a new league: I don't think it would work at all, especially with the weak dollar; it would be CFL-level second class at best.

Wouldn't it be simpler to group the existing Canadian teams - maybe +1 in Quebec City - into a Canadian division? Then you'd have plenty of intra-Canada games, occasional forays south, and at least one team with home ice in the playoffs. And you wouldn't end up with the best Canadian players needing to choose between home cooking and real paycheques...
 

Leather

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The impossibly long travel distances in that scenario would make it a non-starter. It would be like having New York, Boston, and Buffalo in the same division with San Jose, Colorado, and Minnesota
 

TFP

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It's a cool and different idea, but the time zones alone make it a non-starter. You could get away with the long travel to be honest, hockey players travel like royalty. But having division games start 3 hours different than the home time zone for fans? No go.
 

Jettisoned

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Dream scenario: CHL teams are folded into NHL clubs as youth academies/U18 teams. Each club also operates a second team. Enough revenue sharing to allow reasonably similar budgets for all teams

West:
Vancouver
Surrey
Edmonton
Red Deer
Calgary
Winnipeg
Regina/Saskatoon

East:
Toronto
Mississauga
Hamilton
Ottawa
Montreal
Quebec City
Halifax

Schedule:
48 division games
14 interdivision games

Division winners qualify for North American Champions Cup competition
Top 4 teams in each division make the playoffs
Winner of the playoffs is awarded Governor General's Cup

Stanley Cup is contested on the last Sunday in January, outdoors. The current holder must play an opponent chosen at random from the top 4 teams in the league standings on New Year's Day . Teams must ice a roster consisting of 6 skaters each from their U18 team, Second tier team and NHL team.
 
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veritas

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Continuing on what Jettisoned said, the NHL splitting into 2 separate leagues would move hockey closer to a European soccer type setup which would be pretty awesome.

The Stanley Cup playoffs could turn into a champions league type deal with say, 6 US teams, 4 Canadian teams, 2 from the SEL, SM-Liiga, KHL, 1 from the Swiss, Czech, German, etc.. Canadian/US cities who don't make it could host teams from Europe.

It'll never happen though. US teams need the Canadian TV money, even with the current exchange rate. There's no way they let a minority of the teams leave with all of it.
 

Spacemans Bong

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Wasn't half the NHL's revenue coming from Canada before the collapse of the Canuck buck? Obviously you can't assume all that revenue stays in the country because some people root for American teams and those American clubs will keep a good enough portion of Canadian players to remain interesting. But I'm certain that every Canadian franchise was in the top half of revenue with Montreal and Toronto in the top 3 behind the Rangers.

So it seems safe to assume that an eight or ten team NHLC - the seven current clubs plus Quebec, Hamilton/Toronto II, and maybe another club in Saskatoon - would be very competitive from a revenue standpoint. Probably more competitive than the USNHL per club. Some of the troubles the Canadian teams had in the 90s was not just loonie-based but Canada being slow to react to market trends. Every team was in an outdated arena except maybe Calgary, there wasn't much in the way of local TV deals, marketing departments for teams were often sub-par and focused on selling tickets rather than growing revenues in diverse areas.
 

twothousandone

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Toronto is the ninth largest city in North America (Mexico City is #1, so eight US cities are bigger).
Phoenix is slightly bigger than Montreal, and Tampa, Denver, Minneapolis, St. Louis, Charlotte, Pittsburgh, Columbus are smaller. Vancouver is bigger than the final five.

I get that it is a blow to the national ego, but it is bad management (or bad luck) of the franchises -- especially Toronto -- that is to blame. Why make changes to benefit the owners of those teams?

San Jose isn't on wikipedia's top 50 list, but it is a bit of an odd duck.


Edit: wikipedia calls them agglomerations, not cities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_urban_agglomerations_in_North_America
 
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teddykgb

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Why not just play an FA Cup style tournament for all the Canadian teams? That'd be a fun event. Hell, include some of the best junior teams if you want.
 

mwonow

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Toronto is the ninth largest city in North America (Mexico City is #1, so eight US cities are bigger).
Phoenix is slightly bigger than Montreal, and Tampa, Denver, Minneapolis, St. Louis, Charlotte, Pittsburgh, Columbus are smaller. Vancouver is bigger than the final five.

I get that it is a blow to the national ego, but it is bad management (or bad luck) of the franchises -- especially Toronto -- that is to blame. Why make changes to benefit the owners of those teams?

San Jose isn't on wikipedia's top 50 list, but it is a bit of an odd duck.
I'm not sure about your math - folks here believe that Toronto is in the top five in North America. As a media market, it's probably a bit bigger than that.

Anyway, the converse could pretty easily be argued: why shouldn't the NHL hold meaningful post-season games in places where people actually care about hockey?
 

pappymojo

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Can someone confirm that the proposal is that the NHL should guarantee that at least one Canadian team make the playoffs, even if they all suck, all in order to level the playing field?
 

SumnerH

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This has Toronto 8th in metro area: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_metropolitan_areas_by_population

1-Mexico City
2-NYC
3-LA
4-Chicago
5-Dallas
6-Philly
7-Houston
8-Toronto
How you measure makes a big difference. Top 10 cities has Toronto #4 and 5/10 aren't in the US:
1. Mexico City
2. New York
3. LA
4. Toronto
5. Chicago
6. Houston
7. Havana
8. Ecatepec de Morales
9. Montreal
10. Philly

Toronto's 9th by urban agglomerations (which are even bigger regions than metro areas).

But it's the 5th largest media market in North America (Mexico City doesn't crack the top 10), which is probably the most relevant metric as far as sports teams go:
1. NYC
2. LA
3. Chicago
4. Philly
5. Toronto
6. Dallas/Ft Worth
7. San Fran/Oakland/San Jose
8. Atlanta
9. Boston
10. Washington, DC
 

mwonow

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Can someone confirm that the proposal is that the NHL should guarantee that at least one Canadian team make the playoffs, even if they all suck, all in order to level the playing field?
I don't think that's anywhere in the thread, except in my post, which suggested that there be a Canadian division in the NHL. Yes, a division would ensure that at least one Canadian team made the playoffs, even if they all sucked. But hey, isn't that aka "The AFC South"?
 

pappymojo

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I'm just having fun. I think it's healthy for the league to allow divisional rivalries to develop over the border. I fucking hate the Habs but I don't want them out of our division. I just want them to suck and to be sad.
 

Stanley Steamer

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I like the idea of having Canadian East and West divisions, that would guarantee spots in the playoffs. You'd still want to make sure that rivals like the Habs and B's would play several times per year. It would be cool too to have representatives from the European leagues get invites, but that's even more to tax Bettman's feeble soul.
Thanks for the responses and interesting ideas. A few more, and then we can go public.
 

Stanley Steamer

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So it seems safe to assume that an eight or ten team NHLC - the seven current clubs plus Quebec, Hamilton/Toronto II, and maybe another club in Saskatoon - would be very competitive from a revenue standpoint. Probably more competitive than the USNHL per club. Some of the troubles the Canadian teams had in the 90s was not just loonie-based but Canada being slow to react to market trends. Every team was in an outdated arena except maybe Calgary, there wasn't much in the way of local TV deals, marketing departments for teams were often sub-par and focused on selling tickets rather than growing revenues in diverse areas.[/QU

Slow to react to market trends is part of our national identity, pal.
Friends of mine and I have mused over the years that the level of service, of just wanting to get you to buy, is noticeably greater in the States. I think the owners here know they have their fan bases whipped, so they don't feel as compelled to market themselves differently, or more aggressively. Toronto being the case in point, selling out for years with shitty teams.
I agree with the idea that more revenue can be made in Canada, if so desired, but Bettman chooses to cast his gaze elsewhere?