I am also doubtful that Kyrie is a top 10 player, but that list of guys you have are almost all way more flawed than Kyrie - especially someone like Russell, who I would be shocked if his mom would even list him in Kyrie's tier.
Byerie Irving? Do you want Kyrie back?
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After the top 8 or so players, there is a group of about 12 players you could rank as high as 9 or as low as 20. I don't think Mitchell, DeRozan, Oladipo or Russell are in that group of players though. Griffin might be.
The clearly better players off the top of my head are James, Harden, Durant, Curry, Davis, Leonard, Giannis, Jokic
Debatable: George (not debatable this year), Lilliard, Beal, Griffin, Towns, Westbrook, Simmons, Butler, Embiid,
This is off the top of my head so I'm probably forgetting people and maybe have a few on the debatable list that are debatable.
While I don't think they'll ever be as good as Kyrie, Russell and Mitchell have been very good of late. Russell's averaging 24.4 points, 7.4 assists on .458/.378/.879 shooting in 31.4 mpg over his last 28 games. Mitchell's averaging 28.4 points, 4.8 rebounds, 5.1 assists, 1.1 steal on .438/.384/.805 shooting in 35.8 mpg. Russell just turned 23 and Mitchell is still 22. It's possible one or both could take a significant leap.
While I don't think he's in the top 20, I do think Russell is one of the most underrated players in the league. He has a stink to him.
The clearly better players off the top of my head are James, Harden, Durant, Curry, Davis, Leonard, Giannis, Jokic
Debatable: George (not debatable this year), Lilliard, Beal, Griffin, Towns, Westbrook, Simmons, Butler, Embiid,
This is off the top of my head so I'm probably forgetting people and maybe have a few on the debatable list that are debatable.
While I don't think they'll ever be as good as Kyrie, Russell and Mitchell have been very good of late. Russell's averaging 24.4 points, 7.4 assists on .458/.378/.879 shooting in 31.4 mpg over his last 28 games. Mitchell's averaging 28.4 points, 4.8 rebounds, 5.1 assists, 1.1 steal on .438/.384/.805 shooting in 35.8 mpg. Russell just turned 23 and Mitchell is still 22. It's possible one or both could take a significant leap.
While I don't think he's in the top 20, I do think Russell is one of the most underrated players in the league. He has a stink to him.
Blake Griffin is having a very underrated season. His teammates suck and he's stuck in Detroit, but 25-8-5 and shooting 36 percent from three on a ton of attempts and he has been healthy the whole season. The thing about Blake was that the knocks on him were that his athletic style of play would cause him to get injured, and when he got injured his athleticism would wane. By significantly improving his shooting and playmaking, he has completely changed the way he plays, mixing in his shooting and passing with bullrushes to the basket and old-man moves around the rim. His game looks like it is actually going to age quite nicely as he enters his 30s. He has a monster contract which makes him hard to trade, but I'd love to see this Blake Griffin on a contending team.
Kyrie is not a top 10 player but he's definitely between 10 and 20, closer to 15....
12th in PER rankings: http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics
20th in Usage: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2019_leaders.html
12th in Offensive win shares
14th in Overall win shares (10th per 48 mins)
9th box score plus/minus
14th in overall VORP
The sports talk radio consensus seems to be forming that he's a weirdo/jerk and they're better off without him. Don't know if that's true but the he's the most logical public fall guy for this miserable season.
12th in PER rankings: http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics
20th in Usage: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2019_leaders.html
12th in Offensive win shares
14th in Overall win shares (10th per 48 mins)
9th box score plus/minus
14th in overall VORP
The sports talk radio consensus seems to be forming that he's a weirdo/jerk and they're better off without him. Don't know if that's true but the he's the most logical public fall guy for this miserable season.
Our resident Knick fans assure us that social media has rendered the NY press toothless and the fans will simply be happy to have star players on their team for a change. I don't doubt that there will be a honeymoon period but if Irving and/or Durant ends up in NY, the good feelings will evaporate quickly after they run into an inevitable rough patch.
Because his defense is bad? He's 25th overall among pg's in RPM, and terrible by DRPM.
I could see it being a bit like Philly during The Process: ordinarily harsh fans are so happy to have a clear direction and narrative that they buy in during the rough spots.
Doesn't matter if he's top 5 or 15 or 30. He's not a good fit. Obviously you could try to dump a large part of the roster plus picks for AD, but even if Ainge pulls that off I have zero confidence that a resigned Kyrie, AD, the current version of Hayward and whatever else they can fit under the cap will be a serious contender either. Plus the flight risk with AD is enormous.
So, my preference would be to build around JB, JT and MB. For that to work, Ainge will have to keep Horford and draft well. At least they will be entertaining, which this year's team is not.
So, my preference would be to build around JB, JT and MB. For that to work, Ainge will have to keep Horford and draft well. At least they will be entertaining, which this year's team is not.
[QUOTE="For that to work, Ainge will have to keep Horford and draft well.."[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, at least in the extreme near term, the Celtics don't have great assets. The Celtics aren't getting an impact player at 14, 18, and twenty-whatever this year. It's going to be more Semis, Yabuseles, Roziers, etc. Players drafted in that range almost never, ever become stars in the league. I know there are a couple of exceptions, but those are super rare.
The only remaining good asset we have is the Memphis pick in 2020. We can certainly hope that lands in the top 5, but like we saw with Sacramento - things don't always work out as planned.
Unfortunately, at least in the extreme near term, the Celtics don't have great assets. The Celtics aren't getting an impact player at 14, 18, and twenty-whatever this year. It's going to be more Semis, Yabuseles, Roziers, etc. Players drafted in that range almost never, ever become stars in the league. I know there are a couple of exceptions, but those are super rare.
The only remaining good asset we have is the Memphis pick in 2020. We can certainly hope that lands in the top 5, but like we saw with Sacramento - things don't always work out as planned.
2019 is a real wildcard draft, I know people like to look down on it because nearly all the non-Zion people are flawed, but the widely panned 2013 draft turned out as many franchise players as the much more heralded 2014 draft. While the odds of Boston uncovering a gem in the mid first round are against them, they’ll at least have three shots, which are going to increase their odds considerably.
The Celtics aren't getting an impact player at 14, 18, and twenty-whatever this year. It's going to be more Semis, Yabuseles, Roziers, etc. Players drafted in that range almost never, ever become stars in the league. I know there are a couple of exceptions, but those are super rare.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much every year, there is an impactful player or two (sometimes three or four) drafted in the 10-20 range (quick glance through the previous 7 years drafts - Mitchell, Collins, Sabonis, Yabusele, Turner, Booker, Lavine, Warren, Nurkic, Harris, CJ, Adams, Giannis, Lamb, Klay, Kawhi, Vucevic, Tobias). So yes, it is sort of rare, and hard to find the guy, but having three picks in that range certainly increases your chances
I don’t think entertainment is anywhere on Ainge’s list for building his team. He’s one of the handful of GM actively working to win a Championship right now. Moving Kyrie is a step back 5 years as we wouldn’t have a top tier (go-to) player without someone like Durant jumping on board which would be unlikely if the team is going young. Maybe Danny will be painted into the corner and have no choice but I can’t imagine he’d give up on competing for a title next year willingly.
LOL, I do that alot. And if Banks were walking through the door I'd be sorely disappointed.
Yeah, I meant the other guard named Marcus.
Absolutely, which is why I think Ainge will trade Tatum for one year of AD, assuming New Orleans goes along. It's not what I would do, because I believe the short-term championship window closed with Hayward's injury. Now if you could slip some hallucinogens into Bob Myers' tea and convince him to take Hayward in a sign and trade for Durant, that might be a different story.
Right - if Kyrie's options ultimately come down to teaming up with AD in New York and making slightly less money, or teaming with with AD in Boston and making slightly more money, why would he ever choose the former?
Put another way, if Kyrie and AD's primary goal this off-season is to team up, Boston is the logical spot for that. But if Kyrie just wants out of Boston at all costs for some reason, or if AD is dead-set on LA or NY regardless of who his teammates are, then the Celtics probably have to go into at least partial rebuild mode (I know the Pelicans could technically trade AD somewhere other than his desired destination but Davis has the massive leverage of telling that team he's not going to re-sign there, just as KG did back in 2007.)
Put another way, if Kyrie and AD's primary goal this off-season is to team up, Boston is the logical spot for that. But if Kyrie just wants out of Boston at all costs for some reason, or if AD is dead-set on LA or NY regardless of who his teammates are, then the Celtics probably have to go into at least partial rebuild mode (I know the Pelicans could technically trade AD somewhere other than his desired destination but Davis has the massive leverage of telling that team he's not going to re-sign there, just as KG did back in 2007.)
I disagree with this. Whatever has been going on with Kyrie, his ability to facilitate is not the problem. He's having his career-best assists per game, ATO, and best assist rate since his rookie year. To go along with career best FG%, rebound and steal rates, and nearly career best true shooting percentage.
There are frequent episodes of bad offensive flow with Kyrie in, but there are also plenty of episodes of great offensive flow with Kyrie in. He has shown an abilty to play more of a traditional PG role than he typically has and to play it well.
Whatever the F has been going on with Kyrie (and it is absolutely something) has not been about his skills. The same is true for his defense. He's not a great defensive player, but when he is focused on it he can contribute there.
I honestly don't get it, it has been a bizarre season.
I could say the same thing about his defense: sometimes he hustles, sometimes he loafs and spectates.
Dr. Jeckyll is definitely worth a max extension, but Mr. Hyde isn't.
Until LeBron plants another story and Grumprie comes back.
I don’t particularly enjoy rooting for Kyrie, but if you can convince him to stay and then Bring Davis in, I’m for taking the chance. I love Tatum, but a roster of Kyrie, Davis, Al, Hayward, Smart, Brown, etc. is worth the gamble. I’m starting to wonder about the prospects of snatching Davis, though. What if the Kings want him? Kings might be able to trade for Davis and still afford another max...Leonard?
The ideal scenario, of course, is just winning it all this year and running it back without giving up any of the young guys or picks.
Do you think he's trying to be ironic with that hat choice?
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Celtics’ Kyrie Irving after blowout win over Warriors: “The business part of it is what makes it terrible for me, honestly. Dealing with all this s—-. ... The basketball part: I have to keep that fun. That’s where I’m great... That’s what makes me happy.” <a href="https://t.co/GJGRiDZkpF">pic.twitter.com/GJGRiDZkpF</a></p>— Ben Golliver (@BenGolliver) <a href="">March 6, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Celtics’ Kyrie Irving after blowout win over Warriors: “The business part of it is what makes it terrible for me, honestly. Dealing with all this s—-. ... The basketball part: I have to keep that fun. That’s where I’m great... That’s what makes me happy.” <a href="https://t.co/GJGRiDZkpF">pic.twitter.com/GJGRiDZkpF</a></p>— Ben Golliver (@BenGolliver) <a href="">March 6, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
What would the Kings offer? I imagine they'd want to keep Fox and Hield in that scenario to round out the team, so is it Bagley, filler, and future picks? Obviously Fox+Bagley is a godfather offer, but not sure they do that, given the difficulties of re-signing Davis.
I'd be far more worried about the Bulls making an offer for their native Chicagoan than the Kings. With chips like Markkanen, Wendell Carter Jr., and a top 5 pick in the 2019 draft, they could easily give the Pelicans a package that competes with a Tatum+ offer. However, I doubt they would since they are too far away from contention.
Yeah, that's why the Kings are a bit scarier: they can make a strong offer for AD, sign a top FA, and still have pieces on their roster to be really good. To be clear though, I don't think AD to SAC is happening, for a variety of reasons that most of us here are well aware of.
I would be terribly surprised if Rich Paul agrees to extend AD with the Clippers. As is the case with everything Brow, his Klutch affiliation complicates every non Laker scenario.
You may be right, but I wouldn't underestimate the power of Jerry West's expertise combined with Steve Ballmer's money.
What do the Clippers have that can even top the Lakers offer that was turned down?
They don't have the assets.
Depends on how you feel about SGA and Harrell. They also have two first rounders, including Miami's 2021 pick which is unprotected.
Celtics 10-2 without Kyrie this season, 30-24 when he plays. That win rate over an entire season would be 68 wins w/o Kyrie, and 45 wins with. Celtics plus 9 points per game overall in the 12 non-Kyrie games, plus 4.7 points per game in the Kyrie games. 5-2 non-Kyrie against playoff teams, 5-0 against non-playoff teams.
Celtics were 14-8 without Kyrie last season, a 52 game win rate over an entire season, and 41-19 with him, a 56 win team.
Celtics were 14-8 without Kyrie last season, a 52 game win rate over an entire season, and 41-19 with him, a 56 win team.
This team as currently constructed cannot win a championship without Kyrie. With him, they have a shot
Without KI, the Cs have played: UTA (loss); NOP; MIN; DAL; BRK (loss); CLE; BRK; CHO; CLE; PHI; DET; and SAC. So against current playoff teams they are 3-2.
This is a good point when bringing up W/L records with and without players. A lot of times, teams will sit their best players against really bad teams thinking they can win anyway. And they are usually right.
Anyone who watches games against good defensive teams knows that the Cs struggle to score in spots. That will be the case in the playoffs.
The reality is that nobody on the entire roster is as good as Irving at generating looks and converting them.
The reality is that nobody on the entire roster is as good as Irving at generating looks and converting them.
I don't feel they're anywhere close to being the centerpiece of an Anthony Davis deal.
SGA, Shamet, and Harrell are in the ballpark of Lonzo, Kuzma, and Ingram. Agree it's not a clear better offer, but it's competitive; just depends on where the Pelicans land on those guys.
Harrell and SGA are part of a decent package - the former is having a breakout season. However the Pelicans may be looking for some more well known names to placate their fans and those two plus Shamet lack notoriety outside of NBA nerd circles. Frankly I might prefer that group to a Ball/Ingram/Kuzma return.
Woj said at the time that the #1 thing NO wanted back in an AD deal is a guy that could potentially be All NBA. Those are not them.
I agree there's a bit less name brand punch to that group, but as you note, it may be a better package in basketball terms. It's close enough at least that I can see the Pelicans preferring it just to avoid the LaVar drama.
Agree none of those guys are gonna be All NBA, but they have limited options here. None of those Lakers players have much chance at all NBA either.
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