Bruins v. Penguins on Pearl Harbor day

RedRocketeer

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FelixMantilla said:
 
Are you sure you're not from Montreal? Because this is ridiculous.
 
 
Well, no.  I'm now from Tampa, out of NA. 
 
Care to dissect my points and illuminate me on how they are ridiculous?
 

RedRocketeer

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Aug 4, 2008
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Well, I never did post much anyway.
 
 
 
I think the legal issue of pre-meditation stands bad for Thorny.  That and attacking an unprepared defenseless man from behind during stoppage.
 
Charo's hit on Pacioretty was spontaneous and in the moment and within routine hockey play, regardless of the injury, for which a criminal investigation was never going to go anywhere.
 

URI

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RedRocketeer said:
Those are the objective facts.  That is not hockey.  That is assault and battery. It is The Knockout Game on Ice.
 
IMO, with Thorny's action he has forfeited his right to ever play organized hockey in North America again.
Moreover, local law enforcement agencies should open a criminal investigation of whether to charge him with criminal assault.
 
I can't wait to see your take on James Neal.
 

Ed Hillel

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Exactly this. He bounced Orpik's head off the ice repeatedly.


If by "repeatedly" you mean "never", then you would be correct. He gave him a quick forearm, which looked like it grazed, but apparently knocked him out. Thornton then gave a quick short half-hearted right that he pulled up on, as he realized something was wrong. At no point in the whole sequence did his head hit the ice, and Thornton was certainly not "bouncing Orpik's head off the ice repeatedly."

I still can't believe the forearm knocked him out. It looked like it grazed him. Does Orpik have a concussion history?
 

RedRocketeer

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URI said:
 
I can't wait to see your take on James Neal.
 
You must have missed it.
 
I alluded to Neal and all the other issues in the game, including Marchand's little stick to the face. 
 
They pale in compatison to the legal issues I believe Thorny potentially faces.
 
You see, no case for pre-mediation can be made for them as they occurred spontaneously during play action.
 
One thing Thorny has going for him is that it was a home game, which may afford him some favorable consideration from local law enforcement.
 
I think Louis Dionne would own Thorny if this had occurred in Montreal.
 

JayMags71

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RedRocketeer said:
IMO, with Thorny's action he has forfeited his right to ever play organized hockey in North America again.
Moreover, local law enforcement agencies should open a criminal investigation of whether to charge him with criminal assault.
.
Did You have the same opinion after Matt Cooke ended Marc Savard ended Marc Savard's Career? If your answer is "no" , I find it hard to take your opinion seriously.
 

RedOctober3829

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RedRocketeer said:
You must have missed it.
 
I alluded to Neal and all the other issues in the game, including Marchand's little stick to the face. 
 
They pale in compatison to the legal issues I believe Thorny potentially faces.
 
You see, no case for pre-mediation can be made for them as they occurred spontaneously during play action.
 
One thing Thorny has going for him is that it was a home game, which may afford him some favorable consideration from local law enforcement.
 
I think Louis Dionne would own Thorny if this had occurred in Montreal.
You are absolutely insane. Legal issues????
 

Haunted

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Yeah that's just so, so stupid.

Anyway now Kelly is out after taking a slash. I will never, ever feel bad for the Pens. Nt enough bad things could happen to them.
 

Ed Hillel

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RedRocketeer said:
 
You must have missed it.
 
I alluded to Neal and all the other issues in the game, including Marchand's little stick to the face. 
 
They pale in compatison to the legal issues I believe Thorny potentially faces.
 
You see, no case for pre-mediation can be made for them as they occurred spontaneously during play action.
 
One thing Thorny has going for him is that it was a home game, which may afford him some favorable consideration from local law enforcement.
 
I think Louis Dionne would own Thorny if this had occurred in Montreal.
 
Oh cool, so as long as it happens while play is ongoing it is "spontaneous" and not "pre-meditated". GJGE.
 

LogansDad

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Originally, I missed the Neal hit on Marchand and I was livid about what Thornton did. Part of why I like hockey better than football is because the players generally do a better job of policing themselves, and dragging a guy to the ice then hitting him while he is defenseless is, in my opinion, far outside the bound of anything I want to see people do to each other in sport.
 
Then I saw Neal's hit on Marchand, and listened to that little turd's interview after the game and got mad at Thornton for an entirely different reason: I wish he would have gone after Neal instead.
 
At least Thornton showed some remorse... players like Neal don't belong in sports.
 

URI

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RedRocketeer said:
 
You must have missed it.
 
I alluded to Neal and all the other issues in the game, including Marchand's little stick to the face. 
 
They pale in compatison to the legal issues I believe Thorny potentially faces.
 
You see, no case for pre-mediation can be made for them as they occurred spontaneously during play action.
 
One thing Thorny has going for him is that it was a home game, which may afford him some favorable consideration from local law enforcement.
 
I think Louis Dionne would own Thorny if this had occurred in Montreal.
 
Neel looked down and changed his direction slightly and bent his knee in order to make contact with Marchand's head.
 
So you are exactly what I thought.  I suggest you move along.
 

ajml

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Was Thorton on the ice during play or did he come off the bench? I thought he came off the bench and if so I think that is going to add some games that's inexcusable.
 

Myt1

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Blacken said:
Slewfooting a guy before repeatedly bouncing his head off the ice is not "sending a message", superfan.
I'd say that you should invest in a DVR, but I'll just laugh at the guy who's being ridiculously hyperbolic resorting to name calling instead.
 

Myt1

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RedRocketeer said:
 
You must have missed it.
 
I alluded to Neal and all the other issues in the game, including Marchand's little stick to the face. 
 
They pale in compatison to the legal issues I believe Thorny potentially faces.
 
You see, no case for pre-mediation can be made for them as they occurred spontaneously during play action.
 
One thing Thorny has going for him is that it was a home game, which may afford him some favorable consideration from local law enforcement.
 
I think Louis Dionne would own Thorny if this had occurred in Montreal.
Troll the ancient Yuletide carol . . .
 

Myt1

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RedRocketeer said:
Hockey is a brutal game played at high speed on a slippery surface where during play action collisions and hit opportunities spontaneously arise. 
Some hard hits are clean, others have various degrees of being cheap shots.
The degree of whether a hit is clean or cheap  is subjective.  Everyone has an opinion.
 
What made Shawn Thonton's action far worse than anything else, hits or sticks to the face, that happened in last evening's game is this:
 
(1) Play was suspended at the time of the incident thus no player should suspect being hit.
(2) Thorny pre-meditatively --- not spontaneously (and that is decisively important) --- traveled a length of ice to attack Orpik from behind, pulling him down and pummeling him into unconsciousness before the victim knew what was happening and had any ability to defend himself.
 
Those are the objective facts.  That is not hockey.  That is assault and battery. It is The Knockout Game on Ice.
 
IMO, with Thorny's action he has forfeited his right to ever play organized hockey in North America again.
Moreover, local law enforcement agencies should open a criminal investigation of whether to charge him with criminal assault.
 
Bettman must take a firm stand as this incident is extremely bad for the NHL and must be dealt with definitively.
"No player should suspect being hit," after play is suspended is an objective fact? First hockey game?
 

Myt1

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LogansDad said:
Originally, I missed the Neal hit on Marchand and I was livid about what Thornton did. Part of why I like hockey better than football is because the players generally do a better job of policing themselves, and dragging a guy to the ice then hitting him while he is defenseless is, in my opinion, far outside the bound of anything I want to see people do to each other in sport.
 
Then I saw Neal's hit on Marchand, and listened to that little turd's interview after the game and got mad at Thornton for an entirely different reason: I wish he would have gone after Neal instead.
He had skated off onto the bench.

To me, there are only three differences between what Neal and Thornton did:

1. One was an instigating act while the other was retaliatory;

2. One used a gloved fist while the other used a knee;

3. One succeeded in seriously injuring a player.

Had Thornton either not hurt Orpik badly or hurt him badly with an elbow, we're not having anything remotely approaching this conversation. And I just don't see how those differences are sufficient to alter the conversation so substantially.

The reason you have a code of behavior is that it's supposed to be bilateral: it's supposed to protect both sides. Pittsburgh doesn't play within the code, but seeks to benefit from it. You can't consistently step outside the realm of accepted behavior and then act surprised when someone responds outside those bounds himself.
 

Jordu

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What still baffles and angers me is that Neal was not given a match penalty for intent to injure. As URI pointed out, he looked at Marchand and dragged that left leg a little to drive his knee into Marchand's head. The ref was 5 feet away and called the penalty immediately. How does the ref see it so clearly and not call intent to injure?
 

RedRocketeer

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Myt1 said:
"No player should suspect being hit," after play is suspended is an objective fact? First hockey game?
 
English not your first language?  Here's a clue:  if you can't translate my words correctly might you just quote them verbatim rather than embarrass yourself?
 
Meanwhile, have someone explain this to you:
 
 
There is a fairly thick legal veil of immunity for athletes from charges of assault for brutality/injury that occurs during action in games that involve collision. 
 
That veil of immunity is pierced when game action on the field/ice has been suspended and the perpetrator pre-meditatively must travel a distance to the victim and then attack from behind.
 
That moves the incident from a sports action to meet th elegal threshold of assault and battery.
 

TSC

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RedRocketeer said:
 
English not your first language?  Here's a clue:  if you can't translate my words correctly might you just quote them verbatim rather than embarrass yourself?
 
Meanwhile, have someone explain this to you:
 
 
There is a fairly thick legal veil of immunity for athletes from charges of assault for brutality/injury that occurs during action in games that involve collision. 
 
That veil of immunity is pierced when game action on the field/ice has been suspended and the perpetrator pre-meditatively must travel a distance to the victim and then attack from behind.
 
That moves the incident from a sports action to meet th elegal threshold of assault and battery.
 
Since you're so certain - 
 
I pay $100 to the Jimmy Fund if charges are brought up against Thornton. If they aren't, you pay.
 
Deal?
 

RedRocketeer

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TheShynessClinic said:
 
Since you're so certain - 
 
I pay $100 to the Jimmy Fund if charges are brought up against Thornton. If they aren't, you pay.
 
Deal?
 
 
I would have to trust the local Boston authorities to do their job to make that bet.  Which I don't.
 
All this whining about Pittsburgh not following a code of behavior is laughable to say the least.
 
Bruins still being my first team, it is embarrassing that the local Tampa Bay hockey community that I now hang with has generally pegged the Bruins as the goon squad, i.e., getting rather low marks for on ice talent but high marks for hits on the cheap. 
 
I reckon that's a code of behavior, too. 
 
Not aesthetic and not much appreciated around the league, and one that makes Bruin fans hypocrites who whine about other teams delivering punishment during game action.
 

Myt1

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RedRocketeer said:
 
English not your first language?  Here's a clue:  if you can't translate my words correctly might you just quote them verbatim rather than embarrass yourself?
 
Meanwhile, have someone explain this to you:
 
 
There is a fairly thick legal veil of immunity for athletes from charges of assault for brutality/injury that occurs during action in games that involve collision. 
 
That veil of immunity is pierced when game action on the field/ice has been suspended and the perpetrator pre-meditatively must travel a distance to the victim and then attack from behind.
 
That moves the incident from a sports action to meet th elegal threshold of assault and battery.
Well, here's the thing: I've been practicing for eight years. What bar are you a member of?

And is it as well informed as your Tampa Bay hockey community? Because if they think that the Bruins are low on talent, they're understanding of the game is about as sophisticated as yours of law.

You're a troll.
 

Fred in Lynn

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Are you claiming that Thornton went in to the fray intending to concuss Orpik? That's a pretty serious accusation, quite a bit more serious than claiming he was negligent.

Also, I'm wholly against using the rulebook or disciplinary process to send a message. The rules should be objectively and unemotionally enforced at all times, or the rule of law (the NHL's, that is) loses its authority.
 

mascho

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Myt1 said:
Well, here's the thing: I've been practicing for eight years. What bar are you a member of?

And is it as well informed as your Tampa Bay hockey community? Because if they think that the Bruins are low on talent, they're understanding of the game is about as sophisticated as yours of law.

You're a troll.
 

 
That, right there, is when RR's heart breaks.
 

Red Right Ankle

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Holy shit I'm glad I missed the end of this thread.
 
I guess one shouldn't expect much from a guy who admits via his username that he likes to jack his dog off.
 

RedRocketeer

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TheStoryofYourRedRightAnkle said:
Holy shit I'm glad I missed the end of this thread.
 
I guess one shouldn't expect much from a guy who admits via his username that he likes to jack his dog off.
 
Well, I'm a RedRocketeer from North Attleboro High School.

If there is any other connotation to the name RedRocketeer then I am not aware of it, but from your post I gather that you most definitely do.
 
 

RedRocketeer

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Myt1 said:
He had skated off onto the bench.

To me, there are only three differences between what Neal and Thornton did:

1. One was an instigating act while the other was retaliatory;

2. One used a gloved fist while the other used a knee;

3. One succeeded in seriously injuring a player.

Had Thornton either not hurt Orpik badly or hurt him badly with an elbow, we're not having anything remotely approaching this conversation. And I just don't see how those differences are sufficient to alter the conversation so substantially.

The reason you have a code of behavior is that it's supposed to be bilateral: it's supposed to protect both sides. Pittsburgh doesn't play within the code, but seeks to benefit from it. You can't consistently step outside the realm of accepted behavior and then act surprised when someone responds outside those bounds himself.
 
 
The code.  You mean the one where a team loads up with a squad of goons who challenge opposing players to fight based on some perceived transgression, essentially trading one no-talent thug for one skilled player from the other team?

A team loaded with talent would have to pretty stupid to be guilt-tripped into falling for that scam, I reckon
 
 
BTW, if 5 days  is the measure of justice for Neal then should we fully expect never to see the ugly mug of Thug Thonton gooning about on North American ice again?  
 
 

RedRocketeer

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Myt1 said:
Well, here's the thing: I've been practicing for eight years. What bar are you a member of?

And is it as well informed as your Tampa Bay hockey community? Because if they think that the Bruins are low on talent, they're understanding of the game is about as sophisticated as yours of law.

You're a troll.
 
Well, I immediately noticed that you practiced twisting my words. 
 
But do keep practicing and one day you may actually grow up to find your status elevated to a real slip-and-fall pettifogger.
 

NYCSox

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RedRocketeer said:
 
 
The code.  You mean the one where a team loads up with a squad of goons who challenge opposing players to fight based on some perceived transgression, essentially trading one no-talent thug for one skilled player from the other team?

A team loaded with talent would have to pretty stupid to be guilt-tripped into falling for that scam, I reckon
 
 
BTW, if 5 days  is the measure of justice for Neal then should we fully expect never to see the ugly mug of Thug Thonton gooning about on North American ice again?  
 
 
Thug Thornton? The man who has gone 15 years clean as a whistle and who, unlike Cooke and Samuelsson, showed genuine remorse for his actions?
 
I'd call you a troll but that would be offensive to trolls everywhere.
 

kenneycb

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RedRocketeer said:
 
 
The code.  You mean the one where a team loads up with a squad of goons who challenge opposing players to fight based on some perceived transgression, essentially trading one no-talent thug for one skilled player from the other team?

A team loaded with talent would have to pretty stupid to be guilt-tripped into falling for that scam, I reckon
 
 
BTW, if 5 days  is the measure of justice for Neal then should we fully expect never to see the ugly mug of Thug Thonton gooning about on North American ice again?  
 
Like Ray Shero at the deadline last year?
 

RedRocketeer

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Fred in Lynn said:
Are you claiming that Thornton went in to the fray intending to concuss Orpik? That's a pretty serious accusation, quite a bit more serious than claiming he was negligent.

Also, I'm wholly against using the rulebook or disciplinary process to send a message. The rules should be objectively and unemotionally enforced at all times, or the rule of law (the NHL's, that is) loses its authority.
 
Fred, I can't possibly have any idea what Thorny intended when he went to the gathering up-ice.
 
I thought he might have been intending to ask Mr. Orpik to tea after the game, but before Mr. Thornton could say a word there was Mr. Orpik hurtling his head at Mr. Thornton's fists.
 
Clearly Mr. Orpik meant to concuss himself, or break his nose, or worse,  as he clearly made no effort to stop.   :)
 

kenneycb

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RedRocketeer said:
 
Are you referring to when Igina exercised his option to decide which team he wanted to go to?
Unless Jarome changed his name halfway through last season and pulled a JCVD-esque "Sudden Death" move and impersonated a member of the Pittsburgh Penguins (though with a significantly lower degree of difficulty than stopping a terrorist attack in Pittsburgh), no I am not.  
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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RedRocketeer said:
 
Fred, I can't possibly have any idea what Thorny intended when he went to the gathering up-ice.
 
I thought he might have been intending to ask Mr. Orpik to tea after the game, but before Mr. Thornton could say a word there was Mr. Orpik hurtling his head at Mr. Thornton's fists.
 
Clearly Mr. Orpik meant to concuss himself, or break his nose, or worse,  as he clearly made no effort to stop.   :)
How about you use your brain and think about this for a second?
 
You're trolling. Having an unpopular opinion is not trolling, but what you're doing right now is. We have Pens fans on this board that are valued members of the 'Stache community, so team affiliation doesn't matter either. Either start posting smarter or stop posting altogether.
 

kenneycb

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Yeah but his trolling allowed me to make an extended "Sudden Death" analogy so he's all good in my book.  JCVD could solve the Penguins playoff goaltending problems AND the world.
 

RedRocketeer

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
How about you use your brain and think about this for a second?
 
You're trolling. Having an unpopular opinion is not trolling, but what you're doing right now is. We have Pens fans on this board that are valued members of the 'Stache community, so team affiliation doesn't matter either. Either start posting smarter or stop posting altogether.
 
Sorry, Smiling Joe.
 
While I'm evidently not smart enough to have the slightest idea what you are on about here, suffice it to say we can't all post to your lofty standards, so I'll likely be moving on anyway.  
 
And, while I'm hardly a Pens fan, particularly, I do enjoy hockey played at skillful levels and my years in Tampa and my frequenting of the former Ice Palace now St. Pete Times Forum have made of me a Lightning follower as well as a Bruins fan.
 
By the way I want to put in a big shout-out to Espo for being so instrumental in brining hockey to the Tampa Bay area. 
 

Myt1

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RedRocketeer said:
The code.  You mean the one where a team loads up with a squad of goons who challenge opposing players to fight based on some perceived transgression, essentially trading one no-talent thug for one skilled player from the other team?
 
Which team are you talking about here? Who has the squad of goons?  Is this the same team that's seen as low on talent in your hockey circle?
 

Red Right Ankle

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RedRocketeer said:
 
Well, I'm a RedRocketeer from North Attleboro High School.

If there is any other connotation to the name RedRocketeer then I am not aware of it, but from your post I gather that you most definitely do.
 
That's a really unfortunate team name.
 
PedroSpecialK said:
Haha TSOYRRA likes to jack his dog off
I'm indifferent but he certainly seems to like it, so I indulge him.
 
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
Well this has certainly been entertaining.
Has it, though?
 

Red Right Ankle

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TheShynessClinic said:
Oh my god he's like Dojji only worse.
For some reason I read Dojji as Dixie and now I have "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" stuck in my head.
 
This is the best thing that's ever come from a post related to Dojji.