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Best Sox "Prime" team

Discussion in 'Red Sox Forum' started by BuellMiller, Mar 13, 2018.

  1. BuellMiller

    BuellMiller lurker

    Messages:
    277
    ESPN had an article today about which team would be the best if their current players all got their prime year back: http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/22701832/which-team-mlb-best-every-player-were-prime

    (or as I obscurely like to think it, "EWB2 rules").

    Got me thinking, on a similar vein to the 2 All-star team threads...which Red Sox team going back would be best at this (I'm going to also change it a little better to include future years, too).

    I'd guess 2004 would probably be pretty pretty good, if you have a lineup of Nomar and Damon from 2000, Manny (1999), Ortiz (2007), as well as getting 2003 Bill Mueller, Trot Nixon, 2004 Varitek, 2009 Youk, and 1996 Ellis Burks (going by bWAR), with a pitching staff of 1999 Pedro, 2001 Schilling, 2002 Lowe, 1995 Wakefield, and Foulke and the rest of the pen.
    Of course, a sneaky good team by this may be the 1983 team, with HOFs in Boggs, Yaz, Evans, Rice, Eck, and some good prime seasons out of Tudor and Hurst, among others (Gedman in 1985 was pretty good).

    Just a thought to help kill some more time until the end of the month...
     
  2. Ale Xander

    Ale Xander Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    16,476
    Do you take 2004 (Ortiz, Youk Blowhard), or 2002 (Rickey, Floyd, Baerga, Burkett)?

    mainly, peak Rickey or peak Ortiz?
     
  3. Ale Xander

    Ale Xander Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    16,476
    2002 would be something like this:
    LF Rickey Henderson (1990)
    CF Johnny Damon (2000)
    SS Nomar (2000 - good luck IBB'ing him 20 times in this lineup)
    DH Manny Ramirez (1995-2008, pick a year, any year)
    1B Cliff Floyd (2001, playing a 1994 position, can i do that?)
    RF Trot Nixon (2003)
    2B Carlos Baerga (1993)
    C Jason Varitek (2004/5)
    3B Freddy Sanchez (2006-forgot how good he was this year)

    PH/1B Daubach (1999)
    PH/OF Agbayani (1999)
    IF Hillenbrand (plays 3B and Sanchez MIF if injury)
    C2 Mirabelli
    Sorry, Offerman

    SP1 Pedro (pick a year, any year)
    SP2 Lowe (2002-same year!)
    SP3 Burkett (1993)
    SP4 Arrojo (Rookie year)
    SP5 Hermanson (1998)

    Relievers
    Long/Spot Wakefield (1995)
    Mopup Darren Oliver (2008)
    Loogy Embree
    SU1 Howry (2005)
    SU2 Garces
    CL Ugie (1998)

    TV/Radio Lou Merloni
     
    #3 Ale Xander, Mar 13, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  4. curly2

    curly2 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,821
    1978 would have been interesting, with an offense led by 1978 Jim Rice, 1967 Yaz, 1979 Fred Lynn, 1977 Carlton Fisk, 1987 Dwight Evans and 1973 George Scott

    The pitching would have been 1978 Eck, 1972 Luis Tiant, 1973 Bill Lee and 1976 Mike Torrez, with 1977 Bill Campbell as the closer.
     
  5. moretsyndrome

    moretsyndrome Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    400
    That’s a good team. Maybe 1973 Reggie Cleveland to SP and ‘88 Eck to the pen to lock it up with ‘77 Campbell & the Steamer?
     
  6. Snodgrass'Muff

    Snodgrass'Muff oppresses WARmongers Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    27,644
    I'm actually really intrigued by the 2007 Sox. Going by ERA+ and OPS+ and using the starting lineups as they appear on b-ref:

    C: Tek - 122
    1B: Youk - 146
    2B: Pedroia - 131
    3B: Lowell - 128
    SS: Lugo - 106
    LF: Manny - 186
    CF: Coco - 117
    RF: JD Drew - 157
    DH: Papi - 171

    SP: Beckett - 149 (interestingly enough, not his 2007 season)
    SP: Matsuzaka - 160
    SP: Wake - 165
    SP: Schilling - 159
    SP: Lester - 171
    CL: Papelbon - 517
    RP: Okajima - 215
    RP: Timlin - 203 (only 31 games in 1995, so I'm not using it)
    RP: Tavarez - 193
    RP: Javier Lopez - 242
    RP: Gagne - 337
    RP: Brendan Donnelly - 279

    BN: Cora - 119
    BN: Mirabelli - 124
    BN: Ellsbury - 146
    BN: David Murphy - 126

    That offense is relentless and the pitching staff (starters and relievers) is insane.

    With the caveat that playing time limitations would suppress some of these numbers, here's some totals for funsies:

    HR: 289
    RBI: 1044
    Wins (pitcher): 74
    K: 1209
    bWAR: 110.3 (65.5 from the hitters, 44.8 from the pitchers)

    That would be around 153 wins, heh.
     
  7. m0ckduck

    m0ckduck Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    764
    1996 Red Sox surely must have biggest delta between "prime" and actual.

    Consider:
    C- Mike Stanley (1993)
    1B- Mo Vaughn (1996)
    2B- Jon Valentin (1995)
    SS- Nomar (1999 or 2000)
    3B- Tim Naehring (1995)
    LF- Mike Greenwell (1988)
    CF- Um, Dwayne Hosey (1995). Am I allowed 2003 Trot Nixon?
    RF- Kevin Mitchell (1989)
    DH- Jose Canseco (1988)

    With guys like Will Cordero (1994), Reggie Jefferson (1996), and Troy O'Leary (1999) on the bench.

    Edit: that's a defensive train wreck in the outfield-- just as it was in real life. I can barely process how amazing that batting order would be 1-8. Six guys with OPS+ 150 or higher.

    S- Roger Clemens (1990)
    S- Aaron Sele (1994? 2000?)
    S- Tim Wakefield (1995)
    S- Jamie Moyer (2001)
    S- Jeff Suppan (2005)
    C- Flash Gordon (1998)

    Healthcliff Slocumb, Mike Stanton and Rich Garces behind Gordon in the pen.
     
    #7 m0ckduck, Mar 13, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  8. Savin Hillbilly

    Savin Hillbilly loves the secret sauce SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,535
    How about 1992 for the big-delta category? This is a team that finished 73-89, in 7th place.

    Player (OPS+ or ERA+, bWAR)

    C - Tony Pena 1984 (112, 5.9)
    1B - Mo Vaughn 1996 (150, 5.6)
    2B - Tim Naehring 1995 (123, 4.2)
    SS - John Valentin 1995 (138, 8.3)
    3B - Wade Boggs 1987 (187, 8.3)
    LF - Mike Greenwell 1988 (160, 7.5)
    CF - Ellis Burks 1996 (149, 7.9)
    RF - Tom Brunansky 1982 (129, 5.6)
    DH - Jack Clark 1987 (176, 5.4)

    SP:
    Roger Clemens 1990 (211, 10.6)
    Frank Viola 1987 (159, 8.1)
    Danny Darwin 1993 (143, 5.7)
    Matt Young 1983 (131, 5.1)
    Joe Hesketh 1985 (138, 3.3)

    RP:
    Jeff Reardon 1982 (177, 3.5)
    Paul Quantrill 1997 (234, 3.2)
    Greg Harris 1985 (172, 3.3)
     
  9. chrisfont9

    chrisfont9 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,050
    1988 would be intriguing...

    C Rich Gedman (126 best OPS+)
    1B Larry Parrish! (146) (played mostly 3B in real life)
    2B Marty Barrett (102)
    3B Wade Boggs (174)
    SS Jody Reed (112) [Parrish played some SS early on if you want to get real cute]
    LF Mike Greenwell (160)
    RF Dwight Evans (163)
    CF Ellis Burks (149) or Brady Anderson (156)
    DH Jim Rice (157)

    SP Roger Clemens (226 best ERA+, 222 pre roids)
    SP Mike Boddicker (143)
    SP Bruce Hurst (140)
    SP Oil Can Boyd (125 if using only seasons of more than 100 IPs)
    SP Mike Smithson (114)
    CL Lee Smith (229)
    RP Bob Stanley (153)
    RP Dennis Lamp (178)
    RP Wes Gardner (118)

    Not the most fun bunch but you could go to war with this team. Hurst is one of my favorite Sox players ever.
     
  10. Trautwein's Degree

    Trautwein's Degree a Connecticut bicycle attorney in General Motor's Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,224
    The 1980s and 1990s Red Sox were fond of signing players well past their prime.
     
  11. BuellMiller

    BuellMiller lurker

    Messages:
    277

    Yeah, that's an interesting one. Of course, I like to put that year, in the Rocky V and Star Wars I-III bin (in that they never happened). Hated seeing Boggs and Burks leave after the season, too. Only thing remotely positive about it was Vaughn and Valentin starting to show signs as potential starters.
     
  12. Bergs

    Bergs Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,582
    Clemens got fucked so hard that year. I think Reardon blew approximately ellenty-gajillion saves (or 5. Whatever). He was far and away the best pitcher in the AL in 1992 and finished 3rd for the CYA.
     
  13. m0ckduck

    m0ckduck Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    764
    If you're interested in "Roger Clemens, fucked hard", check out the voting for Cy Young in 1990. Specifically, compare him and Bob Welch for every single stats besides Wins. Then look at the MVP balloting, where Roger somehow finished six spots ahead of Welch, despite losing the Cy Young to him-- whaaa?

    Edit: Clemens had 3 seasons where he threw more than 200IP with an ERA+ better than 200... and only won one CY in those 3 seasons. Despite somehow winning a CY in New York in 2001 with an ERA+ of 128. This whole thing is making me angry.
     
    #13 m0ckduck, Mar 13, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  14. DeweyWins

    DeweyWins Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    42
    Earl Weaver Baseball 2... a classic! I remember being able to design parks (distance to the wall, wall height), a feature I've yet to see since then. I started with MicroLeague Baseball, and drifted into less accurate and more visually appealing sims (the Tony LaRussa series from beginning to end, High Heat Baseball) before returning to better sim engines (Strategic Baseball Simulator, Diamond Mind, OOTP).

    I haven't looked closely at it but the 1915 squad with Smoky Joe Wood, Ruth, the Golden Outfield... I wouldn't underestimate the best seasons of each of those players, taken all together.
     
  15. DeweyWins

    DeweyWins Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    42
    I don't disagree there. Clemens has had better years since the second half of 2014. RIP Welch. What a way to go out from the world. I just learned the cause of Welch's death this morning. I remember hearing about it as a heart attack. It makes me re-think the idea of floor mats. o_O
     

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