Best Sox' outfields of all time?

Devizier · Jul 5, 2017

Victorino, Ellsbury, Nava/Gomes was a pretty strong outfield. Although this year's should be better.

mt8thsw9th · Jul 5, 2017

BaseballJones said:
2005 - Ramirez, Damon, Nixon

That crew put up a 9.4 fWAR. The Bs put up a 13.2 total last year, with limited reps from Benintendi.

The 2009 OF (Bay, Ellsbury, Drew) was a lot better than 2005, if only by getting rid of the defensive black hole that Manny was in LF. Bay wasn't the greatest defender, but he was markedly better than who he replaced.

I'd put the group in front of all but the Gold Dust Twins OF at the moment on performance and pedigree, and the group could easily eclipse them if they keep the band together for more than a handful of years.

edit- I should clarify that I meant in the past 50 years

doc · Jul 5, 2017

Hooper, Duffy and Speaker

chawson · Jul 5, 2017

Per B-R, Betts/Benintendi/Bradley are on pace for 15.1 WAR. Per Fangraphs they're on pace for 16.3.

Lynn/Rice/Evans topped out in '75 with 15.5 WAR (B-R). Ramirez/Damon/Nixon in 2002 was 13.7. Victorino/Ellsbury/Nava/Gomes hit 15.7 in 2013.

'88 looks like the year to beat. 16 wins above replacement.

Burks – .294/.367/.481, 5.3 war
Greenwell – .325/.416/.531 7.5 war
Evans – .293/.375/.487 3.2 war

Savin Hillbilly · Jul 5, 2017

BaseballJones said:
As of this morning, here's the Red Sox' three primary outfielders...

Betts (24): .280/.361/.500/.861, 15 hr, 51 rbi, 15 sb, 2.6 war
Benintendi (22): .288/.361/.465/.827, 12 hr, 50 rbi, 9 sb, 2.6 war
Bradley (27): .284/.366/.494/.860, 11 hr, 36 rbi, 1.9 war

Where are you getting those WAR numbers? They don't match either FG or BBref (the latter hasn't caught up to yesterday's game yet). Both sources have Betts with much more than 2.6 WAR, and Benintendi with less.

bankshot1 · Jul 5, 2017

Didn't we do this already?

'67 deserves some mention, as these 3 guys had the potential to be an all-time great OF, but unfortunately was cut short.

Yaz-we know the #s one of the greatest individual years of all-time (thats no hyperbole-its was the best season I've ever seen a player have) WAR 12.4

Reggie-very good player star in the making, very good defensive CF, WAR 3.4

Tony C- fuck you Jack Hamilton, WAR 3.7

WAR from baseball ref

Monbonthbump · Jul 5, 2017

Ted Williams, Jimmy Piersall, Jackie Jensen wasn't bad.

Savin Hillbilly · Jul 5, 2017

bankshot1 said:
'67 deserves some mention, as these 3 guys had the potential to be an all-time great OF, but unfortunately was cut short.

Yeah, considering that from 1968-1973 Yaz and Reggie averaged 11.5 bWAR between the two of them, and Tony C looked like he was rounding into a 5-6 win kind of player himself, that might well have been the argument-settler here if fate had not intervened.

jmcc5400 · Jul 5, 2017

chawson said:
Per B-R, Betts/Benintendi/Bradley are on pace for 15.1 WAR. Per Fangraphs they're on pace for 16.3.

Lynn/Rice/Evans topped out in '75 with 15.5 WAR (B-R). Ramirez/Damon/Nixon in 2002 was 13.7. Victorino/Ellsbury/Nava/Gomes hit 15.7 in 2013.

'88 looks like the year to beat. 16 wins above replacement.

Burks – .294/.367/.481, 5.3 war
Greenwell – .325/.416/.531 7.5 war
Evans – .293/.375/.487 3.2 war

By 1988, Dewey was playing 1b about as often as he was in RF. It was jarring seeing him on the IF.

grimshaw · Jul 5, 2017

Offense has mostly been discussed but I believe this is the best defensive outfield they have ever had.

They have had great pairs like Lynn/Evans, and other pairs that only overlapped a few years like Ellsbury/Victorino, Crisp and Drew, and even Lewis and Bragg (ick), but their left fielders (Manny, Rice, O'Leary etc.) were poor.

I'm not sure there is a better overall base running combo either.

Al Zarilla · Jul 5, 2017

grimshaw said:
Offense has mostly been discussed but I believe this is the best defensive outfield they have ever had.

They have had great pairs like Lynn/Evans, and other pairs that only overlapped a few years like Ellsbury/Victorino, Crisp and Drew, and even Lewis and Bragg (ick), but their left fielders (Manny, Rice, O'Leary etc.) were poor.

I'm not sure there is a better overall base running combo either.

I think Beni has a ways to go to be spoken about on a defense level with JBJ and Mookie, in spite of last night's catch (and the one last year at the trop). Fangraphs even has him with a negative defensive WAR for the season right now. I know, people will say half a year is still not enough for good conclusion drawing re the newer defense stats. He's certainly not bad though, and en total, we have an excellent defensive, and offensive outfield. One thing I really enjoy is watching Betts and Bradley criss-cross on hard hit balls in the alley. One of them catches it and you can see that the other could just as easily have caught it.

NoXInNixon · Jul 5, 2017

Haven't Red Sox left fielders historically gotten shafted by the advanced stats because of the Monster?

Savin Hillbilly · Jul 5, 2017

grimshaw said:
Offense has mostly been discussed but I believe this is the best defensive outfield they have ever had.

It's the first time I can remember them having a starting outfield of which you could say without exaggeration that all three guys have the tools to play any of the three OF positions. Their range ranges from very good to outstanding, they are fearless (and effective) divers and wall-crashers, and there's not a noodle arm in the bunch.

grimshaw · Jul 5, 2017

Al Zarilla said:
I think Beni has a ways to go to be spoken about on a defense level with JBJ and Mookie, in spite of last night's catch (and the one last year at the trop). Fangraphs even has him with a negative defensive WAR for the season right now. I know, people will say half a year is still not enough for good conclusion drawing re the newer defense stats. He's certainly not bad though, and en total, we have an excellent defensive, and offensive outfield. One thing I really enjoy is watching Betts and Bradley criss-cross on hard hit balls in the alley. One of them catches it and you can see that the other could just as easily have caught it.

I'm not saying Beni is anywhere near Betts or JBJ. Just that among outfield trios it is the best that I can recall. With the other pairs I mentioned, left field defenders were poor and he does not appear that way.

Al Zarilla · Jul 5, 2017

grimshaw said:
I'm not saying Beni is anywhere near Betts or JBJ. Just that among outfield trios it is the best that I can recall. With the other pairs I mentioned, left field defenders were poor and he does not appear that way.

Got it. I hope these guys are together for a good long time in the outfield.

Sampo Gida · Jul 5, 2017

Ranking by arithmetic weighting of OPS+ Going back to 1965

1968, Yaz, Reggie, Harrelson 151 OPS+
1979 Rice, Lynn, Evans 148 OPS+
1988 Greenwell, Burks, Evans 139 OPS+
1975 Rice, Lynn, Evans 136 OPS +
1965 Yaz, LGreen, Tony C 136 OPS+
2002 Manny, Damon, Nixon 134 OPS+
2003 Manny, Damon, Nixon 134 OPS+
1978 Rice, Lynn, Evans 133 OPS+
1989 Greenwell, Burks, Evans 130 OPS+

Probably another 10 seasons between 120-130 OPS+ so the current group at 119 OPS+ is unremarkable. Their youth suggests better days to come though.

As for defense I dont think we can easily quantify between era but this group is among the best that I have seen over 50 years .

Edit. UZR only goes back to 2002 but since then this OF is behind the 2014 and 2008 teams in UZR/150. In 2008 the principal OFers were Manny/Bay, Crisp, Drew and and in 2014 Gomes, JBJ and Nava. It includes all Ofers

Ranking is
2014- 9.7 UZR/150
2008 -8.9
2017 -7.6

gryoung · Jul 8, 2017

Rice/Lynn/Evans was the best overall for me.

The current one of Benintendi/Bradley/Betts is the best defensively as AB is better than Rice and the others are, pretty much, a push.

scotian1 · Jul 8, 2017

If Grantland Rice said the "Golden Outfield" was the best he ever saw I tend to believe it. This article gives a nice history of the trio.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Outfield

Savin Hillbilly · Jul 8, 2017

scotian1 said:
If Grantland Rice said the "Golden Outfield" was the best he ever saw I tend to believe it. This article gives a nice history of the trio.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Outfield

'One day in 1913, Speaker annoyed Lewis by repeatedly knocking Lewis' cap off. Lewis said, "Do that again and I'll kill you." After Speaker continued to do it, Lewis hit him in the shins with a baseball bat, and Speaker had to be helped off the field.'

keninten · Jul 9, 2017

It`s amazing to think about a better outfield than what we have now. Hopefully today`s will get a couple World Series. Wonder if the Golden Outfield could dance?

shaggydog2000 · Jul 9, 2017

Savin Hillbilly said:
'One day in 1913, Speaker annoyed Lewis by repeatedly knocking Lewis' cap off. Lewis said, "Do that again and I'll kill you." After Speaker continued to do it, Lewis hit him in the shins with a baseball bat, and Speaker had to be helped off the field.'

It's like Manny rubbing Beltre's head, except it ends with a major injury. Nothing like old-timey baseball.

Al Zarilla · Jul 9, 2017

shaggydog2000 said:
It's like Manny rubbing Beltre's head, except it ends with a major injury. Nothing like old-timey baseball.

In those and many subsequent years, unless you were Babe Ruth, putting even a guy like Speaker out of commission for a year might be like hiding a mechanic's tools for a year. Still, DON't DO THAT!

opes · Jul 9, 2017

Its crazy they were allowed to juggle the balls to prevent runners advancing. Never considered that.

jaytftwofive · Aug 14, 2017

BaseballJones said:
As of this morning, here's the Red Sox' three primary outfielders...

Betts (24): .280/.361/.500/.861, 15 hr, 51 rbi, 15 sb, 2.6 war
Benintendi (22): .288/.361/.465/.827, 12 hr, 50 rbi, 9 sb, 2.6 war
Bradley (27): .284/.366/.494/.860, 11 hr, 36 rbi, 1.9 war

And the defense played by these guys is just insanely good.

When I look at this group, I see one of the better all-around young outfields the Red Sox have ever had. In my lifetime (47 years), here's the other best OF groupings I've ever seen:

1975-78 - Lynn, Rice, Evans
1984 - Rice, Armas, Evans
1990 - Burks, Greenwell, Brunansky
2005 - Ramirez, Damon, Nixon

I'm sure the OFs in the 40s featuring Ted and Dom DiMaggio were insanely good as well. And the 67 group with Yaz, Conigliaro, and Smith was awesome too.

So I'm not remotely ready to put this OF group at the top, obviously. They have a long way to go. But they hit, they run, they hit with power, they field, they're fun to watch, and they're young. I hope they can all stick around for a long time because I think they could be one of the best OF groups this franchise has ever seen.

If I'm not mistaken, didn't Yaz play a decent amount of outfield 75-79? I know he played a lot of first and Cecil Cooper DH'd. But when we got Scotty back didn't Yaz go back to the outfield and Rice would DH? We had four all star outfielders. Not too shabby.

jaytftwofive · Aug 15, 2017

jaytftwofive said:
If I'm not mistaken, didn't Yaz play a decent amount of outfield 75-79? I know he played a lot of first and Cecil Cooper DH'd. But when we got Scotty back didn't Yaz go back to the outfield and Rice would DH? We had four all star outfielders. Not too shabby.

And in 77 I believe Bernie Carbo played some outfield while Lynn and Dewey spent some time on the DL. That was quite a group of outfielders.

Best Sox' outfields of all time?

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