This is now: BB and the direction of the Patriots

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Van Everyman

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So, in light of Josh’s firing, what do we think happens or should happen?

I would be all for Josh’s return, if he wants it. Of course, it’s very different joining a team in the midst of a Super Bowl playoff run vs. a last place salvage job.

Would the roster at all be appealing to him? I disagree there are “zero players that will be difference makers on offense in 2024.” The team excelled for years at coaching up guys with this level of talent pre-2021. And part of what I think Bill has been struggling these last two years is less finding players who can adapt to his system – but coaches. Josh took a ton of them with him in 2021. Maybe Josh’s return is a shortcut to getting that back on track.
 

BaseballJones

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We're still talking about a Bill championship team like he fucked up. What the hell is going on in this forum.
Hear, hear. I mean, we talk about "going for it" because "banners fly forever" or whatever. And in real time, when Brady was towards the end of his time in NE, we were all like, let's squeeze every ounce out of this that we can, whatever the consequences are later.

And the Pats won a freaking Super Bowl in 2018 (well the game was in 2019, but whatever). Mission accomplished. And BB put together one of the great defensive game plans in NFL history that day to lock up a hugely explosive offense, on a day when the Pats' own offense really sputtered (and on that day they still had Brady, who obviously was FAR from "done", Gronk, Edelman, White, and Hogan - a far, far better set of offensive skill players than they have now).

And anyone who looks at THAT and says it's a sign of mismanagement or a poor job by BB is....taking crazy pills.
 

cornwalls@6

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Apr 23, 2010
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Some context on Gronk being almost traded to the Lions. It sounds like some of the tensions between him and Bill reached a head, and Bill essentially called his bluff and started the trade talks. Gronk then realized he really didn’t want to play anywhere else at that time, and used the threat of retirement to veto. So, it wasn’t really a case of Bill cluelessly thinking the offense would be fine without him, but rather a personality clash that got out of hand(and I’m sure Bill had some culpability in that). But using a trade that ultimately didn’t happen, without any context or back story, to make the case that Bills offensive ineptitude includes a Super Bowl championship season, is not a sound argument. And I write this as someone who thinks it may be time to move on from Bill, or at least insist that he relinquish some of his FO duties. But there’s enough evidence post 2019 to support that argument, without resorting to bad arguments from a championship season.

https://www.si.com/nfl/patriots/news/new-england-patriots-rob-gronkowski-trade-detroit-lions-vetoed-bill-belichick#:~:text=Conflict with Bill Belichick nearly,with the New England Patriots.
 

amfox1

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So, in light of Josh’s firing, what do we think happens or should happen?
McDaniels is, reportedly, owed money under his contract through the 2027 season. He should clearly take a break from coaching for a while, let the Pats coaching situation play out and then consider his next move. He'll likely never get another HC job, even in NE.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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The speed that people get banned from threads, but this trash is still going?

BB has built a top 5 defense that only accounts for 40% of next years cap and only has 2 players on it that are free agents (Uche, Dugger).

You don't like the offense? I get it. But acting like he's clueless is a fucking joke. Where are the mods for this shit?
The Pats have a top five defense?
 

Cellar-Door

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One thing about Solder/Cooks as well.... they let Solder go (correctly, he got wildly overpaid and was in decline), then traded Cooks to get a 1st round pick, which they used on what they hoped was their next left tackle (and Wynn was good until he body fell apart).

The 2018 offseason was actually quite a good one, they needed to manage the cap long term, they let a bunch of mediocre guys go get overpaid elsewhere, they traded a good not great WR for a new LT, and signed some guys on short deal reclamation projects. Worked perfectly and they won the title. 2019 was pretty okay too until injuries part way through the year crushed them.

I think a lot of the "2018 and 2019 is bad roster management" is kind of silly, it was what always happens to great teams, eventually the money starts catching up and you have to make short term decisions to try and get the most out of the last 2 years of Brady. I'm fine with criticism of how they handled 2021/22 offseasons, some real misses there, but 2018/19 stuff seems mostly like a totally unrealistic view of how much they could pay whom.
 

8slim

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One thing about Solder/Cooks as well.... they let Solder go (correctly, he got wildly overpaid and was in decline), then traded Cooks to get a 1st round pick, which they used on what they hoped was their next left tackle (and Wynn was good until he body fell apart).

The 2018 offseason was actually quite a good one, they needed to manage the cap long term, they let a bunch of mediocre guys go get overpaid elsewhere, they traded a good not great WR for a new LT, and signed some guys on short deal reclamation projects. Worked perfectly and they won the title. 2019 was pretty okay too until injuries part way through the year crushed them.

I think a lot of the "2018 and 2019 is bad roster management" is kind of silly, it was what always happens to great teams, eventually the money starts catching up and you have to make short term decisions to try and get the most out of the last 2 years of Brady. I'm fine with criticism of how they handled 2021/22 offseasons, some real misses there, but 2018/19 stuff seems mostly like a totally unrealistic view of how much they could pay whom.
Like I said upthread, the only thing that bothered me during that stretch (in real time, I'll add) was the handling of Gronk's departure. Even if he had decided to play one more season in 2019, they 100% should have taken a TE in that draft. Pushing LaCosse and Watson on Brady was absurd. It was the first time since 2003 when I was off the "In Bill We Trust" bandwagon.
 

Ed Hillel

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I would welcome him back with open arms, but I am probably in the minority.
I don't think you'd be in the minority at all. In my mind, BoB was always transitional here and destined to end up as a head coach again in the college level if he couldn't turn the offense around quickly, so I think it's a move that could work out for all parties.
 

tims4wins

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I don't think you'd be in the minority at all. In my mind, BoB was always transitional here and destined to end up as a head coach again in the college level if he couldn't turn the offense around quickly, so I think it's a move that could work out for all parties.
The only issue is, who is going to hire BOB after this year?
 

Cellar-Door

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The only issue is, who is going to hire BOB after this year?
plenty of colleges likely, the question is whether any of the top programs he probably would want will take him... also whether he actually wants to be a college HC, it's a very different job and not everybody likes it.

His resume is excellent though... he was a good HC at PSU, he was a solid NFL HC and his OC stint at Alabama looks great now that they have fallen off an offensive cliff.
 

8slim

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plenty of colleges likely, the question is whether any of the top programs he probably would want will take him... also whether he actually wants to be a college HC, it's a very different job and not everybody likes it.

His resume is excellent though... he was a good HC at PSU, he was a solid NFL HC and his OC stint at Alabama looks great now that they have fallen off an offensive cliff.
Re: the bolded, particularly these days given the huge impact of NIL and the portal. I get the sense that A LOT of older coaches want no part of that chaos.
 

mcpickl

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And then needlessly extended one of the shitty WR they traded for, for some reason.
Chose to reply to this one, so many people are saying the same thing, I don't understand the complaints about extending Devante Parker.

He was due to make 5.7M this year in the last year of his contract, instead they extended him and are paying him 5.9M this season in salary and signing bonus, have him at a guaranteed 3.2M next season, and a fully non-guaranteed 3.2M in 2025.

The extension also lowered his cap hit by 2.5M this season. They gave him a bunch of incentives that they'd be happy to pay if he reaches them, the only one he's on pace to hit is playing time but assuming he misses this week he'll fall off pace of even that.

He clearly shouldn't be in the role he's in here, he should be more of a rotation guy, but if they want to move him this offseason they'll easily be able to do so. Probably get a tiny bit of value in return as well.

I think that extension, even in hindsight with how this season has gone down, is a good piece of business.
 

BigSoxFan

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Chose to reply to this one, so many people are saying the same thing, I don't understand the complaints about extending Devante Parker.

He was due to make 5.7M this year in the last year of his contract, instead they extended him and are paying him 5.9M this season in salary and signing bonus, have him at a guaranteed 3.2M next season, and a fully non-guaranteed 3.2M in 2025.

The extension also lowered his cap hit by 2.5M this season. They gave him a bunch of incentives that they'd be happy to pay if he reaches them, the only one he's on pace to hit is playing time but assuming he misses this week he'll fall off pace of even that.

He clearly shouldn't be in the role he's in here, he should be more of a rotation guy, but if they want to move him this offseason they'll easily be able to do so. Probably get a tiny bit of value in return as well.

I think that extension, even in hindsight with how this season has gone down, is a good piece of business.
I don’t want him in the rotation next year. He is a complete nonfactor and is “old” for a WR. It’s not a big deal at all but I was ready to move on after this year and hope BB is too. I get the cap implications but would have preferred to just move on.
 

mcpickl

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I don’t want him in the rotation next year. He is a complete nonfactor and is “old” for a WR. It’s not a big deal at all but I was ready to move on after this year and hope BB is too. I get the cap implications but would have preferred to just move on.
Cool.

Then you trade him.

There will be takers at 3.2M.

It's a non issue in my eyes.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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The Pats have a top five defense?
As @lexrageorge pointed out, the defense has been decimated by injuries. When you're missing your best front 7 player and your top 3 corners, its a bit of an issue.

We should probably highlight that the Pats offense ranks 30th in time of possession. Couple that with the fact that the Patriots offense is getting smoked in field position - the average starting field position for the defense is the opponents 36, good for 5th worst in the NFL - and you have a gassed defense forced to defend shorter fields than almost any other team in the NFL. There isn't a defense in the league that could succeed in those circumstances.

The majority of people are in agreement he can still build and coach a defense but he's also built a bottom 3 offense in the league with zero players that will be difference makers on offense in 2024. If he wants to continue to coach/draft defensive players great but what confidence do we have he can turn around this offense? A top 5 defense and bottom 5 offense is at best a team that will be forever .500 in today's NFL.
I get that, but context matters. And this discussion has been pretty void of it. So lets go through BB/the offense chronologically:
  • 2020 only kind of counts. Yes, the rebuild started in 2020, but because of how we needed to structure contracts to try and squeeze value into the Brady window, the Patriots started the offseason with nearly $30M in dead cap. There was no way to build an offense because we had no fucking money to do it. Without being able to sign free agents, that means the Patriots either had to (A) stand pat and bring back their own players or (B) build through the draft. That offseason consisted of:
    • Franchising Joe Thuney (good move)
    • Signing Cam Newton (Hindsight is what it is. I still consider this a good move. We had no QB and we took a flyer on a 30 year old former MVP. What other option was there with no money?)
    • Drafting Asiasi, Keene, Rohrwasser, Onwenu (gross.)
While theres nothing the team could do about the salary cap situation, its certainly fair to dig into the 2020 draft. Other than Onwenu, those players are mostly shit. They passed up on Hurts, Aiyuk, Higgins, Pittman, and Jeudy. That said, its hard to hold it against the Patriots on Hurts - everyone passed on him once and there wasn't much to suggest the level of success he's had.

So...4 offensive skill players we missed on, and we had a roster full of holes. Outside of the top dozen or so offensive skill players - who almost all went prior to their initial draft pick - this draft sucked for offensive talent.
  • 2021 had financial flexibility. When people think of BB's failures building an offense, this is what they point to. Hunter Henry, Jonnu Smith, Nelson Agholor, Kendrick Bourne. Absolutely not worth the money invested in them - although one could argue Bourne has brought value when not in the doghouse. So, lets hop in a time machine and help Braindead Belichick reinvest in the free agentsthat would have helped the offense that season!
    • First on the list - nobody.
Thats the list. Nobody. Trent Williams wasn't leaving San Francisco, there was no reason to pony up money for Joe Thuney, and Corey Linsley would have been redundant at center. I'm sure theres some names on the list that could have been marginally more valuable, but thats just picking nits. There isn't anybody on that list for us to say, "Boy! The Pats sure fucked up by not signing him!" I suppose they could have just signed nobody, but I'm not sure how that helps the offense get better. Gotta pay to play.

With that out of the way, its also worth noting that the Patriots got David Andrews to return on the cheap after signing Ted Karras. They traded for Trent Brown who, for all his faults, is one of the better lineman on the roster when healthy and motivated. Again, the roster was overhauled one season prior, so there isn’t much to bring back in terms of talent.

As for the draft, the Patriots selected Mac Jones in the 1st round and Rhamondre Stevenson in the 4th round. Say what you want about Mac Jones - and I think I've made it clear that I'm not a fan - but the pick was 1000% justified and a gamble that any NFL team needing a QB should take 10 times out of 10. I wont say much about Stevenson, as I think we can all agree it was a hit in the 4th round. What offensive difference makers did they pass up on in the draft? Well, Amon-Ra, but he went in the 4th round and everyone passed on him, so…*shrugs*. Other than that? Nico Collins went in the 3rd round. He may top 1000 yards for the first time in his career this season. Thats about it.

For the second year in a row, there was no opportunity to sign a difference maker on offense, and there was little value to be had in the draft by the time they picked. Again, someone explain what BB should do when there is no talent available?
  • 2022 - The Future Looks Bright. The Patriots didnt have much cap to work with, and their draft pick was in the 20’s. But that’s OK, because the team had just made the playoffs with a rookie QB starting all 17 games. It was time to build on that success, but just for shits and giggles, lets see the bigtime offensive players the Pats missed out on in free agency that season.
    • Christian Kirk at $72M. No cap and, um…no thanks, anyway.
    • Terron Armstead at $75M. No cap for this.
    • Brandon Scherff at $50M. No cap for him, but I did like him…just not at this price.
Again…thats it. As @Super Nomario has stated a billion times, top tier skilled players aren’t floating around free agency all that often.

They also realized their error with Agholor, so Bill tried to address it by bringing in Parker. Didnt work, but he tried to address the issue with a trade, as it was the only option available to him at the time.

Draft time! Strange, Thornton, Strong, Zappe. Meh. Patriots traded back from 21st to 29th to get Strange. There was no offensive players taken in those picks that came back to bite them. Its only been 1.5 seasons since this draft, so its hard to say if they missed out on any offensive difference makers. A few offense linemen may be decent, but we probably won’t know that for another season or two. Christian Watson had a good rookie year with Aaron Rodgers but has fallen off a cliff since. Feel free to check out the list yourselves. Any offensive player we’re kicking ourselves over?
  • 2023 isn’t as bright as we thought. And that brings us to this season. We knew for sometime that the Patriots future was going to be decided by Mac Jones. As shown above, there were very few options through free agency, returning players, or the draft that were going to be able to move the needle for the Patriots offense. Its Mac or bust.
And he busted. We can argue about free agency and whether we should have brought back Jakobi, signed JJSS, gone after Hopkins (I was an advocate)...but none of those players would have moved the needle much for this offense.

All that said, Belichick smartly began pivoting away from his mistakes. He traded Jonnu, eating $12.5M in dead cap this season to open up the cap again for next season. He hired a real offensive coordinator to patch the damage done by his previous choices. He brought in an up and coming offensive line coach to replace whatever the hell they tried to throw in after losing Scar.

So, why should we trust Belichick the GM for next offseason?

Like I stated at the start of this diatribe…context matters. As cited above, it’s not like there was offensive talent falling from the skies for him to work with. When he made poor offensive signings, it wasn’t at the cost of better offensive signings. When he made poor draft picks, it wasn’t at the cost of better offensive players. If BB were simply picking bad offensive players while everyone else is signing/drafting good ones? Sure, take the keys. But the player pool is what it is.

What BB HAS done is create a top defense that is young, cheap, and signed through 2024 while having the 4th most cap available heading into 2024 free agency. He drafted a promising QB, and gave him 3 full seasons to prove himself - which is the only option this team had available. Hes shown the willingness to be agile and pivot away from his mistakes - which is an amazing quality for anyone in any profession because nobody is perfect, but being able to acknowledge a mistake and quickly move on from it is all we can do.

TL;DR - Im fine with BB staying GM this offseason.
 
Last edited:

Silverdude2167

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Oct 9, 2006
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As @lexrageorge pointed out, the defense has been decimated by injuries. When you're missing your best front 7 player and your top 3 corners, its a bit of an issue.

We should probably highlight that the Pats offense ranks 30th in time of possession. Couple that with the fact that the Patriots offense is getting smoked in field position - the average starting field position for the defense is the opponents 36, good for 5th worst in the NFL - and you have a gassed defense forced to defend shorter fields than almost any other team in the NFL. There isn't a defense in the league that could succeed in those circumstances.



I get that, but context matters. And this discussion has been pretty void of it. So lets go through BB/the offense chronologically:
  • 2020 only kind of counts. Yes, the rebuild started in 2020, but because of how we needed to structure contracts to try and squeeze value into the Brady window, the Patriots started the offseason with nearly $30M in dead cap. There was no way to build an offense because we had no fucking money to do it. Without being able to sign free agents, that means the Patriots either had to (A) stand pat and bring back their own players or (B) build through the draft. That offseason consisted of:
    • Franchising Joe Thuney (good move)
    • Signing Cam Newton (Hindsight is what it is. I still consider this a good move. We had no QB and we took a flyer on a 30 year old former MVP. What other option was there with no money?)
    • Drafting Asiasi, Keene, Rohrwasser, Onwenu (gross.)
While theres nothing the team could do about the salary cap situation, its certainly fair to dig into the 2020 draft. Other than Onwenu, those players are mostly shit. They passed up on Hurts, Aiyuk, Higgins, Pittman, and Jeudy. That said, its hard to hold it against the Patriots on Hurts - everyone passed on him once and there wasn't much to suggest the level of success he's had.

So...4 offensive skill players we missed on, and we had a roster full of holes. Outside of the top dozen or so offensive skill players - who almost all went prior to their initial draft pick - this draft sucked for offensive talent.
  • 2021 had financial flexibility. When people think of BB's failures building an offense, this is what they point to. Hunter Henry, Jonnu Smith, Nelson Agholor, Kendrick Bourne. Absolutely not worth the money invested in them - although one could argue Bourne has brought value when not in the doghouse. So, lets hop in a time machine and help Braindead Belichick reinvest in the free agentsthat would have helped the offense that season!
    • First on the list - nobody.
Thats the list. Nobody. Trent Williams wasn't leaving San Francisco, there was no reason to pony up money for Joe Thuney, and Corey Linsley would have been redundant at center. I'm sure theres some names on the list that could have been marginally more valuable, but thats just picking nits. There isn't anybody on that list for us to say, "Boy! The Pats sure fucked up by not signing him!" I suppose they could have just signed nobody, but I'm not sure how that helps the offense get better. Gotta pay to play.

With that out of the way, its also worth noting that the Patriots got David Andrews to return on the cheap after signing Ted Karras. They traded for Trent Brown who, for all his faults, is one of the better lineman on the roster when healthy and motivated. Again, the roster was overhauled, one season prior, so there isn’t much to bring back in terms of talent.

As for the draft, the Patriots selected Mac Jones in the 1st round and Rhamondre Stevenson in the 4th round. Say what you want about Mac Jones - and I think I've made it clear that I'm not a fan - but the pick was 1000% justified and a gamble that any NFL team needing a QB should take 10 times out of 10. I wont say much about Stevenson, as I think we can all agree it was a hit in the 4th round. What offensive difference makers did they pass up on in the draft? Well, Amon-Ra, but he went in the 4th round and everyone passed on him, so…*shrugs*. Other than that? Nico Collins went in the 3rd round. He may top 1000 yards for the first time in his career this season. Thats about it.

For the second year in a row, there was no opportunity to sign a difference maker on offense, and there was little value to be had in the draft by the time they picked. Again, someone explain what BB should do when there is no talent available?
  • 2022 - The Future Looks Bright. The Patriots didnt have much cap to work with, and their draft pick was in the 20’s. But that’s OK, because the team had just made the playoffs with a rookie QB starting all 17 games. It was time to build on that success, but just for shits and giggles, lets see the bigtime offensive players the Pats missed out on in free agencythat season.
    • Christian Kirk at $72M. No cap and, um…no thanks, anyway.
    • Terron Armstead at $75M. No cap for this.
    • Brandon Scherff at $50M. No cap for him, but I did like him…just not at this price.
Again…thats it. As @Super Nomario has stated a billion times, top tier skilled players aren’t floating around free agency all that often.

They also realized their error with Agholor, so Bill tried to address it by bringing in Parker. Didnt work, but he tried to address the issue with a trade, as it was the only option available to him at the time.

Draft time! Strange, Thornton, Strong, Zappe. Meh. Patriots traded back from 21st to 29th to get Strange. There was no offensive players taken in those picks that came back to bite them. Its only been 1.5 seasons since this draft, so its hard to say if they missed out on any offensive difference makers. A few offense linemen may be decent, but we probably won’t know that for another season or two. Christian Watson had a good rookie year with Aaron Rodgers but has fallen off a cliff since. Feel free to check out the list yourselves. Any offensive player we’re kicking ourselves over?
  • 2023 isn’t as bright as we thought. And that brings us to this season. We knew for sometime that the Patriots future was going to be decided by Mac Jones. As shown above, there were very few options through free agency, returning players, or the draft that were going to be able to move the needle for the Patriots offense. Its Mac or bust.
And he busted. We can argue about free agency and whether we should have brought back Jakobi, signed JJSS, gone after Hopkins (I was an advocate)...but none of those players would have moved the needle much for this offense.

All that said, Belichick smartly began pivoting away from his mistakes. He traded Jonnu, eating $12.5M in dead cap this season to open up the cap again for next season. He hired a real offensive coordinator to patch the damage done by his previous choices. He brought in an up and coming offensive line coach to replace whatever the hell they tried to throw in after losing Scar.

So, why should we trust Belichick the GM for next offseason?

Like I stated at the start of this diatribe…context matters. As cited above, it’s not like there was offensive talent falling from the skies for him to work with. When he made poor offensive signings, it wasn’t at the cost of better offensive signings. When he made poor draft picks, it wasn’t at the cost of better offensive players. If BB were simply picking bad offensive players while everyone else is signing/drafting good ones? Sure, take the keys. But the player pool is what it is.

What BB HAS done is create a top defense that is young, cheap, and signed through 2024 while having the 4th most cap available heading into 2024 free agency. He drafted a promising QB, and gave him 3 full seasons to prove himself - which is the only option this team had available. Hes shown the willingness to be agile and pivot away from his mistakes - which is an amazing quality for anyone in any profession because nobody is perfect, but being able to acknowledge a mistake and quickly move on from it is all we can do.

TL;DR - Im fine with BB staying GM this offseason.
This is a great post, thanks for putting it together.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,883
As @lexrageorge pointed out, the defense has been decimated by injuries. When you're missing your best front 7 player and your top 3 corners, its a bit of an issue.

We should probably highlight that the Pats offense ranks 30th in time of possession. Couple that with the fact that the Patriots offense is getting smoked in field position - the average starting field position for the defense is the opponents 36, good for 5th worst in the NFL - and you have a gassed defense forced to defend shorter fields than almost any other team in the NFL. There isn't a defense in the league that could succeed in those circumstances.



I get that, but context matters. And this discussion has been pretty void of it. So lets go through BB/the offense chronologically:
  • 2020 only kind of counts. Yes, the rebuild started in 2020, but because of how we needed to structure contracts to try and squeeze value into the Brady window, the Patriots started the offseason with nearly $30M in dead cap. There was no way to build an offense because we had no fucking money to do it. Without being able to sign free agents, that means the Patriots either had to (A) stand pat and bring back their own players or (B) build through the draft. That offseason consisted of:
    • Franchising Joe Thuney (good move)
    • Signing Cam Newton (Hindsight is what it is. I still consider this a good move. We had no QB and we took a flyer on a 30 year old former MVP. What other option was there with no money?)
    • Drafting Asiasi, Keene, Rohrwasser, Onwenu (gross.)
While theres nothing the team could do about the salary cap situation, its certainly fair to dig into the 2020 draft. Other than Onwenu, those players are mostly shit. They passed up on Hurts, Aiyuk, Higgins, Pittman, and Jeudy. That said, its hard to hold it against the Patriots on Hurts - everyone passed on him once and there wasn't much to suggest the level of success he's had.

So...4 offensive skill players we missed on, and we had a roster full of holes. Outside of the top dozen or so offensive skill players - who almost all went prior to their initial draft pick - this draft sucked for offensive talent.
  • 2021 had financial flexibility. When people think of BB's failures building an offense, this is what they point to. Hunter Henry, Jonnu Smith, Nelson Agholor, Kendrick Bourne. Absolutely not worth the money invested in them - although one could argue Bourne has brought value when not in the doghouse. So, lets hop in a time machine and help Braindead Belichick reinvest in the free agentsthat would have helped the offense that season!
    • First on the list - nobody.
Thats the list. Nobody. Trent Williams wasn't leaving San Francisco, there was no reason to pony up money for Joe Thuney, and Corey Linsley would have been redundant at center. I'm sure theres some names on the list that could have been marginally more valuable, but thats just picking nits. There isn't anybody on that list for us to say, "Boy! The Pats sure fucked up by not signing him!" I suppose they could have just signed nobody, but I'm not sure how that helps the offense get better. Gotta pay to play.

With that out of the way, its also worth noting that the Patriots got David Andrews to return on the cheap after signing Ted Karras. They traded for Trent Brown who, for all his faults, is one of the better lineman on the roster when healthy and motivated. Again, the roster was overhauled, one season prior, so there isn’t much to bring back in terms of talent.

As for the draft, the Patriots selected Mac Jones in the 1st round and Rhamondre Stevenson in the 4th round. Say what you want about Mac Jones - and I think I've made it clear that I'm not a fan - but the pick was 1000% justified and a gamble that any NFL team needing a QB should take 10 times out of 10. I wont say much about Stevenson, as I think we can all agree it was a hit in the 4th round. What offensive difference makers did they pass up on in the draft? Well, Amon-Ra, but he went in the 4th round and everyone passed on him, so…*shrugs*. Other than that? Nico Collins went in the 3rd round. He may top 1000 yards for the first time in his career this season. Thats about it.

For the second year in a row, there was no opportunity to sign a difference maker on offense, and there was little value to be had in the draft by the time they picked. Again, someone explain what BB should do when there is no talent available?
  • 2022 - The Future Looks Bright. The Patriots didnt have much cap to work with, and their draft pick was in the 20’s. But that’s OK, because the team had just made the playoffs with a rookie QB starting all 17 games. It was time to build on that success, but just for shits and giggles, lets see the bigtime offensive players the Pats missed out on in free agencythat season.
    • Christian Kirk at $72M. No cap and, um…no thanks, anyway.
    • Terron Armstead at $75M. No cap for this.
    • Brandon Scherff at $50M. No cap for him, but I did like him…just not at this price.
Again…thats it. As @Super Nomario has stated a billion times, top tier skilled players aren’t floating around free agency all that often.

They also realized their error with Agholor, so Bill tried to address it by bringing in Parker. Didnt work, but he tried to address the issue with a trade, as it was the only option available to him at the time.

Draft time! Strange, Thornton, Strong, Zappe. Meh. Patriots traded back from 21st to 29th to get Strange. There was no offensive players taken in those picks that came back to bite them. Its only been 1.5 seasons since this draft, so its hard to say if they missed out on any offensive difference makers. A few offense linemen may be decent, but we probably won’t know that for another season or two. Christian Watson had a good rookie year with Aaron Rodgers but has fallen off a cliff since. Feel free to check out the list yourselves. Any offensive player we’re kicking ourselves over?
  • 2023 isn’t as bright as we thought. And that brings us to this season. We knew for sometime that the Patriots future was going to be decided by Mac Jones. As shown above, there were very few options through free agency, returning players, or the draft that were going to be able to move the needle for the Patriots offense. Its Mac or bust.
And he busted. We can argue about free agency and whether we should have brought back Jakobi, signed JJSS, gone after Hopkins (I was an advocate)...but none of those players would have moved the needle much for this offense.

All that said, Belichick smartly began pivoting away from his mistakes. He traded Jonnu, eating $12.5M in dead cap this season to open up the cap again for next season. He hired a real offensive coordinator to patch the damage done by his previous choices. He brought in an up and coming offensive line coach to replace whatever the hell they tried to throw in after losing Scar.

So, why should we trust Belichick the GM for next offseason?

Like I stated at the start of this diatribe…context matters. As cited above, it’s not like there was offensive talent falling from the skies for him to work with. When he made poor offensive signings, it wasn’t at the cost of better offensive signings. When he made poor draft picks, it wasn’t at the cost of better offensive players. If BB were simply picking bad offensive players while everyone else is signing/drafting good ones? Sure, take the keys. But the player pool is what it is.

What BB HAS done is create a top defense that is young, cheap, and signed through 2024 while having the 4th most cap available heading into 2024 free agency. He drafted a promising QB, and gave him 3 full seasons to prove himself - which is the only option this team had available. Hes shown the willingness to be agile and pivot away from his mistakes - which is an amazing quality for anyone in any profession because nobody is perfect, but being able to acknowledge a mistake and quickly move on from it is all we can do.

TL;DR - Im fine with BB staying GM this offseason.
My only complaint with this post is that I wish I had written it.
 

Ed Hillel

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Anyone wringing their hands over the departure of Nate friggin Solder is clearly not someone to be taken seriously.
Especially since he was actually quite good with the Pats for the most part, and it seems BB basically got great value out of him and dumped him before he hit the Kellerman Cliff.
 

j44thor

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They also realized their error with Agholor, so Bill tried to address it by bringing in Parker. Didnt work, but he tried to address the issue with a trade, as it was the only option available to him at the time.

Draft time! Strange, Thornton, Strong, Zappe. Meh. Patriots traded back from 21st to 29th to get Strange. There was no offensive players taken in those picks that came back to bite them. Its only been 1.5 seasons since this draft, so its hard to say if they missed out on any offensive difference makers. A few offense linemen may be decent, but we probably won’t know that for another season or two. Christian Watson had a good rookie year with Aaron Rodgers but has fallen off a cliff since. Feel free to check out the list yourselves. Any offensive player we’re kicking ourselves over?

TL;DR - Im fine with BB staying GM this offseason.
They extended Parker for some inexplicable reason, passed on George Pickens for Tyquan Thornton, drafted Mapu instead of Josh Downs, drafted a K instead of Roschon Johnson. If this team had Pickens and Downs they would have a league average offense with a bright future. Instead we have a bottom 2 WR crew and zero upside. Missing 1-2 picks is enormous when as BB Jones has pointed out they don't take a lot of shots at skill position players to begin with. It is easier to build a top 5 D when you are constantly drafting DL/DBs etc.

Somehow 29 other teams found a way to build out a competent skill position group (leaving out CAR who is the only objectively worse skill position grouping in the NFL). I'm not even expecting an elite talent level given the context you laid out but league average with upside would feel nice right about now. I'd settle for HOU level of skill position players at this point. Nico/Dell/Pierce all have some upside and production just as an example.
 

Devizier

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I think there are parallel discussions here, which are being unnecessarily conflated.

1) Was Belichick really all that good (sans Brady) over all those years.

2) Is he the best option going forward.

I think the revisionism on 1 is kind of silly, the guys record speaks for himself and there isn’t a successful head coach who you can’t ding for having good players (e.g. Starr, Marino, Montana, Young, etc.) It seems like a silly way to base your criticism, but even if you take this argument seriously there are plenty of talented teams that don’t succeed to the level of winning a single title, never mind six. Specifically, most of them.

2) This is the interesting discussion. I think a lot of coaches/front offices hit dry patches and this is definitely one for the Patriots. If Belichick were twenty years younger, I’d be more confident that he could see them through this. But he’s not and here we are.
 

Cellar-Door

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They extended Parker for some inexplicable reason, passed on George Pickens for Tyquan Thornton, drafted Mapu instead of Josh Downs, drafted a K instead of Roschon Johnson. If this team had Pickens and Downs they would have a league average offense with a bright future. Instead we have a bottom 2 WR crew and zero upside. Missing 1-2 picks is enormous when as BB Jones has pointed out they don't take a lot of shots at skill position players to begin with. It is easier to build a top 5 D when you are constantly drafting DL/DBs etc.

Somehow 29 other teams found a way to build out a competent skill position group (leaving out CAR who is the only objectively worse skill position grouping in the NFL). I'm not even expecting an elite talent level given the context you laid out but league average with upside would feel nice right about now. I'd settle for HOU level of skill position players at this point. Nico/Dell/Pierce all have some upside and production just as an example.
Why would they draft ROschon Johnson? THey had to cut and trade similar guys to get to 53 this year?
AS to Pickens/Tyquan... looks like a clear miss, but the reasoning made some sense in that Tyquan was a raw burner who got separation and Pickens was a Parker type who gets no separation and is all about making contested catches.

As to Downs... sure could have taken him there, but I don't see some superstar out of him yet, he's gotten a bit more opportunity, but the Patriots drafted a very similar player who is arguably putting up better per snap production in Douglas.

I get that its fun to randomly select guys who hit and cherry pick them out as "why didn't we draft this guy" but you can always do that.
 

luckiestman

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Jul 15, 2005
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PSU, Texans, his OC stint at Alabama looks great now that they have fallen off an offensive cliff.
PSU 15-9
Texans 52-48
Bama had Bryce Young

This doesn’t look that great to me.

Matt Nagy was 34-31 with the Bears and he didn’t have Deshaun Watson.

Until I see otherwise these Brady orbiters all suck.

I am open to them not sucking but let’s judge them with the same rules we apply to others.
 

j44thor

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Why would they draft ROschon Johnson? THey had to cut and trade similar guys to get to 53 this year?
AS to Pickens/Tyquan... looks like a clear miss, but the reasoning made some sense in that Tyquan was a raw burner who got separation and Pickens was a Parker type who gets no separation and is all about making contested catches.

As to Downs... sure could have taken him there, but I don't see some superstar out of him yet, he's gotten a bit more opportunity, but the Patriots drafted a very similar player who is arguably putting up better per snap production in Douglas.

I get that its fun to randomly select guys who hit and cherry pick them out as "why didn't we draft this guy" but you can always do that.
Roschon was considered the best pass blocking RB in the class and would have made Zeke an unnecessary signing and given them Rham insurance and a replacement when he leaves after 24.
There is simply no reasoning for Tyquan in the 2nd rd. It was a bad pick then and it is even worse today. If they really wanted a downfield threat Alec Pierce would have been a better option.
If they didn't want a smaller slot because they knew Douglas would be available in the 6th though I'd argue better production in the ACC is worth a lot more than production at Liberty, Michael Wilson could have been the target in the 3rd instead of a 3rd straight defensive selection. Even if Mapu actually lived up to his draft slot it would still be an inefficient pick simply because the defense already had more than enough talent. I think this is my last post on just how bad the NE offense is though because people will continue to make excuses for it IBWT.
 

Cellar-Door

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PSU 15-9
Texans 52-48
Bama had Bryce Young

This doesn’t look that great to me.

Matt Nagy was 34-31 with the Bears and he didn’t have Deshaun Watson.

Until I see otherwise these Brady orbiters all suck.

I am open to them not sucking but let’s judge them with the same rules we apply to others.
I mean, at PSU he was voted Coach of the year and lauded for saving the program which was under heavy sanctions, context matters.

As to the Texans... he got to 100 games and made the playoffs 5 or 6 times, that alone tells you he was pretty good (also... Watson has been terrible post-BOB so maybe not some great QB who propped him up). Bryce Young... so what? It's Bama, they always have a ton of talent.

Roschon was considered the best pass blocking RB in the class and would have made Zeke an unnecessary signing and given them Rham insurance and a replacement when he leaves after 24.
There is simply no reasoning for Tyquan in the 2nd rd. It was a bad pick then and it is even worse today. If they really wanted a downfield threat Alec Pierce would have been a better option.
If they didn't want a smaller slot because they knew Douglas would be available in the 6th though I'd argue better production in the ACC is worth a lot more than production at Liberty, Michael Wilson could have been the target in the 3rd instead of a 3rd straight defensive selection. Even if Mapu actually lived up to his draft slot it would still be an inefficient pick simply because the defense already had more than enough talent. I think this is my last post on just how bad the NE offense is though because people will continue to make excuses for it IBWT.
People aren't making excuses for the offense, they are pointing out that cherrypicking random players, assuming they would do well here and ignoring the process is pointless, and has no value. It becomes even more silly when you're then arguing about the quality of a guy's college conference as a reason picking a player who has been similarly successful in the NFL 3 rounds later is somehow bad.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Unless there are only like a handful of good head coaches in the league, and everyone else is shitty, I don’t know how BOB’s record screams that he is a shitty head coach.

This seems akin to a trend I’ve noticed in how QBs are discussed, where in many circles if the player isn’t one of the elite QBs shit gets thrown in their direction. See, eg, Kirk Cousins.
 

luckiestman

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Unless there are only like a handful of good head coaches in the league, and everyone else is shitty, I don’t know how BOB’s record screams that he is a shitty head coach.

This seems akin to a trend I’ve noticed in how QBs are discussed, where in many circles if the player isn’t one of the elite QBs shit gets thrown in their direction. See, eg, Kirk Cousins.
I don’t think I see 5 coaches right now where I would rather have BOB than the incumbent.

Chi, LV (when McD there), Chargers. Who else?

If we did same for Kirk we get like 20 teams where we would rather Kirk than the incumbent.
 

ManicCompression

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I think the line of reasoning that "There was no better alternative at that point in the draft" or its cousin "Yes, there were better guys available, but at the time we couldn't have known it, so it was logical for us to choose X-bust" are both pretty flawed.

This is not a fantasy draft. Teams can move up and down boards to find players they like, or give up draft capital for active players they like. The perfect example is the Chiefs trading up for Mahomes - in an alternate universe, they could sit back and say that "well, someone else took him before us, so we never had a chance," but no, they identified the guy and gave up value to change the fate of their franchise. So the Patriots could have at any point in the last four years identified and acquired talented offensive players (at a greater cost and with greater risk , yes), but they identified and acquired the opposite instead.

It's pretty unpersuasive to say that the only path forward at the time is the one the Patriots took - the whole job of a GM or organizational steward is to think outside the box and find a way to maximize the resources of an organization. I don't agree that we should pretend that a 2-6 season with the second worse point differential and an offense that has no upside now or in the future was destiny for this team after Brady left.
 

Cellar-Door

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I don’t think I see 5 coaches right now where I would rather have BOB than the incumbent.

Chi, LV (when McD there), Chargers. Who else?

If we did same for Kirk we get like 20 teams where we would rather Kirk than the incumbent.
ARI, ATL, NYJ, NYG, NO, TB would all have to consider it. Could make an argument for WAS, CIN, CLE, IND.

It's a messy middle for competent NFL coaches. I think BOB is a good coach and part of what held him back in HOU was that he was part of a terrible GM/FO situation (for which he was not at all blameless).
 

Reardon's Beard

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The Patriots were better when JM was here versus when he is not. So, if there's a place for him that doesn't upset the applecart, fine with it.
 

Cellar-Door

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I think the line of reasoning that "There was no better alternative at that point in the draft" or its cousin "Yes, there were better guys available, but at the time we couldn't have known it, so it was logical for us to choose X-bust" are both pretty flawed.

This is not a fantasy draft. Teams can move up and down boards to find players they like, or give up draft capital for active players they like. The perfect example is the Chiefs trading up for Mahomes - in an alternate universe, they could sit back and say that "well, someone else took him before us, so we never had a chance," but no, they identified the guy and gave up value to change the fate of their franchise. So the Patriots could have at any point in the last four years identified and acquired talented offensive players (at a greater cost and with greater risk , yes), but they identified and acquired the opposite instead.

It's pretty unpersuasive to say that the only path forward at the time is the one the Patriots took - the whole job of a GM or organizational steward is to think outside the box and find a way to maximize the resources of an organization. I don't agree that we should pretend that a 2-6 season with the second worse point differential and an offense that has no upside now or in the future was destiny for this team after Brady left.
Has anyone said that? The argument isn't "they couldn't have gotten good players" the point is that picking out individual players and saying "well this guy did well in the NFL so they should have picked him" isn't a legitimate criticism, especially when they are either totally dissimilar players or in the case of RBs, they are at positions we have made significant draft capital investments and had a locked in starter. I don't think anyone disagrees that the Patriots have not been particularly good at identifying WR talent, particularly early in drafts.
 

Toe Nash

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Unless there are only like a handful of good head coaches in the league, and everyone else is shitty, I don’t know how BOB’s record screams that he is a shitty head coach.

This seems akin to a trend I’ve noticed in how QBs are discussed, where in many circles if the player isn’t one of the elite QBs shit gets thrown in their direction. See, eg, Kirk Cousins.
For the latter, and perhaps the former, it's because it seems impossible to win a Super Bowl unless you have one of the top 5 QBs (and maybe it is).

I think the league would be much better if the rules around passing were changed so it was easier to defend receivers. But it won't happen because fans don't care that much.
 

luckiestman

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ARI, ATL, NYJ, NYG, NO, TB would all have to consider it. Could make an argument for WAS, CIN, CLE, IND.

It's a messy middle for competent NFL coaches. I think BOB is a good coach and part of what held him back in HOU was that he was part of a terrible GM/FO situation (for which he was not at all blameless).
I agree with NO and Was
Was should just promote Bienemy



Tampa/NO is a a BOB/McDaniels situation except defense and players don’t hate Bowles.

Cin, Indy, Cleveland has better guys in my opinion.
 

luckiestman

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I think the league would be much better if the rules around passing were changed so it was easier to defend receivers. But it won't happen because fans don't care that much.

Scoring is way down and making passing harder would do the opposite of what I think you want. When something is very difficult only the elite can do it.
 

NomarsFool

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1) Was Belichick really all that good (sans Brady) over all those years.
I know this isn't you, but there seems to be a lot of people who seem to forget that Brady only plays on offense. I can certainly understand a belief that 50% - 75% - 90% of the offensive success could have been the result of Brady and not Bill, but the Patriots have, typically, had either a very good defense or a defense that was able to overperform compared to what you'd expect given the personnell. Bill must get some credit for the defense.
 

ManicCompression

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Has anyone said that?
Yes, there are many posts that say, "We took (use whatever Patriots draft bust you like), but no one taken immediately after them at xyz position has been better." @Kenny F'ing Powers wrote a great, well-thought out post (that I just kind of disagree with) and says things like:
" I wont say much about Stevenson, as I think we can all agree it was a hit in the 4th round. What offensive difference makers did they pass up on in the draft? Well, Amon-Ra, but he went in the 4th round and everyone passed on him, so…*shrugs*. Other than that? Nico Collins went in the 3rd round. He may top 1000 yards for the first time in his career this season. Thats about it." We're only evaluating what they passed on directly, not what they could have acquired through other means.

"Strange, Thornton, Strong, Zappe. Meh. Patriots traded back from 21st to 29th to get Strange. There was no offensive players taken in those picks that came back to bite them. Its only been 1.5 seasons since this draft, so its hard to say if they missed out on any offensive difference makers. A few offense linemen may be decent, but we probably won’t know that for another season or two. Christian Watson had a good rookie year with Aaron Rodgers but has fallen off a cliff since." Strange is only viewed through the offensive players taken in between 21-29 and directly after - not what could have been acquired by, for example, trading for another player, or trading up, etc.
 

j44thor

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Has anyone said that? The argument isn't "they couldn't have gotten good players" the point is that picking out individual players and saying "well this guy did well in the NFL so they should have picked him" isn't a legitimate criticism, especially when they are either totally dissimilar players or in the case of RBs, they are at positions we have made significant draft capital investments and had a locked in starter. I don't think anyone disagrees that the Patriots have not been particularly good at identifying WR talent, particularly early in drafts.
You keep saying cherry picking but arguing for players that were mocked higher, and were generally higher rated than the players they picked is not cherry picking it is simply questioning their process and decision making. Cherry picking would be complaining they missed drafting Puka Nacua in the 4th when no one had him rated highly on draft boards. Hell I would have been the first to complain if they had drafted Nacua and be pleasantly eating crow right now.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Apr 12, 2005
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Yes, there are many posts that say, "We took (use whatever Patriots draft bust you like), but no one taken immediately after them at xyz position has been better." @Kenny F'ing Powers wrote a great, well-thought out post (that I just kind of disagree with) and says things like:
" I wont say much about Stevenson, as I think we can all agree it was a hit in the 4th round. What offensive difference makers did they pass up on in the draft? Well, Amon-Ra, but he went in the 4th round and everyone passed on him, so…*shrugs*. Other than that? Nico Collins went in the 3rd round. He may top 1000 yards for the first time in his career this season. Thats about it." We're only evaluating what they passed on directly, not what they could have acquired through other means.

"Strange, Thornton, Strong, Zappe. Meh. Patriots traded back from 21st to 29th to get Strange. There was no offensive players taken in those picks that came back to bite them. Its only been 1.5 seasons since this draft, so its hard to say if they missed out on any offensive difference makers. A few offense linemen may be decent, but we probably won’t know that for another season or two. Christian Watson had a good rookie year with Aaron Rodgers but has fallen off a cliff since." Strange is only viewed through the offensive players taken in between 21-29 and directly after - not what could have been acquired by, for example, trading for another player, or trading up, etc.
That post also begins after the 2019 draft, which was a fucking disaster of epic proportions, and as many others seem to do, completely ignores the fact that teams in the NFL routinely trade for huge, mega star offensive skill players. CMC, Amari Cooper, AJ Brown, Tyreek, Davante Adams and on and on and on...

Bill is missing on his draft picks, missing on his free agent acquisitions and not even making the trades other teams are doing to compete.

He's just not been a good GM on offense for a while.
 

Cellar-Door

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You keep saying cherry picking but arguing for players that were mocked higher, and were generally higher rated than the players they picked is not cherry picking it is simply questioning their process and decision making. Cherry picking would be complaining they missed drafting Puka Nacua in the 4th when no one had him rated highly on draft boards. Hell I would have been the first to complain if they had drafted Nacua and be pleasantly eating crow right now.
Picking the single player is always cherry picking, because it isn't a question of process, it's "what if they had picked this one player in this one spot" and the player is selected because they had a positive outcome elsewhere. Like you picked Pickens because he's had a pretty good career, instead of Skyy Moore, another player generally "higher rated" (a dubious term since teams don't generally just have a list of wildly different WRs ranked in order like the pundits) because Moore has been bad.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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That post also begins after the 2019 draft, which was a fucking disaster of epic proportions, and as many others seem to do, completely ignores the fact that teams in the NFL routinely trade for huge, mega star offensive skill players. CMC, Amari Cooper, AJ Brown, Tyreek, Davante Adams and on and on and on...

Bill is missing on his draft picks, missing on his free agent acquisitions and not even making the trades other teams are doing to compete.

He's just not been a good GM on offense for a while.
I started the year "the rebuild" began. Feel free to go back to 1985 if you want.

Obviously I didn't include trades, but feel free to make an argument that BB had the capital - and should have - beat the accepted trade for whatever player you want.
 

Groovenstein

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They extended Parker for some inexplicable reason
What was it, the reason? What might it have been? Certainly you’re not suggesting BB was just throwing darts, so what might have been his thought process? What should a GM consider when deciding to extend a player? What are the relevant considerations? How might those considerations have factored in here?
 
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