Basketball HOF Class of 2017

RedOctober3829

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Tracy McGrady
Bill Self
Rebecca Lobo
Muffett McGraw
HS coach Robert Hughes--most wins in HS boys basketball ever
Manny Jackson--Harlem Globetrotters
NCAA exec Tom Jernstedt
Zach Clayton
Nick Galis
Jerry Krause
George McGinnis
 

Riconway3155

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Tracy McGrady? Maybe I'm just not remembering enough, but as a casual NBA fan I don't remember him being HOF level. Am I miss remembering?
 

PC Drunken Friar

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Tracy McGrady? Maybe I'm just not remembering enough, but as a casual NBA fan I don't remember him being HOF level. Am I miss remembering?
Yea, this could have gone either way? 2-time top 5 MVP (4th both times). Led the league in scoring twice. 10 "useful" seasons (actually 9...he played only 35 games in the last one). He was a monster in the playoffs, though, averaging over 30 points in 4 playoff seasons.

Also was a 7-time all-star and 7-time All-NBA. Basketball Reference has (had) him at a 95.5% chance at the Hall of Fame, FWIW.
 

Kliq

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It's unbelievably easy to get into the Basketball HOF; Antwan Jamison has a shot to get in.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Tracy McGrady? Maybe I'm just not remembering enough, but as a casual NBA fan I don't remember him being HOF level. Am I miss remembering?
Yes. McGrady was a 7-time All-NBA player in his 20's before his career ended early due to his knee(?) issues. One of the original HS-to-pros guys he also had an impact in rules changes regarding eligibility. The NBA HOF is geared more toward "contribution to the game" more than pure numbers so I wouldn't necessarily call it easy they just use different criteria than MLB.

Basketball-Reference has historically been very accurate in their HOF percentages. McGrady was over 95%......Antwan Jamison is less than 1%. He isn't getting in.
 

DannyDarwinism

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It's unbelievably easy to get into the Basketball HOF; Antwan Jamison has a shot to get in.
Yeah, I was arguing with a friend after I told him Ginobili was a lock, and I think his problem was thinking it was more like the baseball HoF. Ginobili's a first ballot guy when you consider his international legacy. Blew his mind when I told him I thought Ben Wallace and Chris Bosh should get in. Jamison seems like a stretch though, at least as my first impression.
 

slamminsammya

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Ben Wallace is an interesting one. He was certainly one of the most unique players I have ever seen play the game. Most of the players people now love to call "rim protectors" have an impact on the game that is more subtle. Ben Wallace, at 6'9, was always very obviously a defensive force.

I remember one game in the playoffs, I think it was 2001 or 2002 - the year they made the ECF against the Nets, and the Celtics played the Pistons in the second round. There were a couple plays where there was a switch and Wallace ended up defending Pierce one on one. You need to remember this is peak Pierce, during the years where you could make an argument he was better than Kobe and maybe the best in the league at his position (maybe T-Mac). Pierce could not get anything past Wallace. I think he tipped multiple crossover attempts, forced Pierce into a pullup with the shotclock running down, and in the end blocked the shot. It was simply incredible to watch.
 

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Bill Self.
Really being a coach at a major program with a pulse is about all it takes to make the hall. Most college coaches are shitty coaches.
 

reggiecleveland

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I am trying to think of a parallel to the letdown of the buildup to Bill Self speaking at a coaching clinic "hottest coach in the game" "verifiable hoop genius" etc. Then once you saw him you realized his success was mostly in recruiting.
 

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Mitch Richmond being in Springfield blows my mind. Not once during his career did anyone outside his family say "wow, there's future Hall of Famer Mitch Richmond!" If Chris Webber gets in (and of Richmond is in, C-Webb should be a lock), we'll look back at that Wizards-Warriors deal as an exchange of Hall of Famers. Wow.

With that context, none of this year's modern American player inductees are all that surprising. McGinnis and McGrady would have been mentioned in any "best player on the planet right now" discussion in their respective primes, and Lobo fits nicely with other "contribution to the game" picks (Petrovic, Yao, etc.). Self and McGraw easily meet the historic standards for induction of coaches (which I agree are too lax), and while I wouldn't have voted for Jerry Krause, I can't get worked up about a GM with six rings getting inducted. I don't know enough about the other selections to have an informed opinion on those.
 
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HomeRunBaker

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Mitch Richmond being in Springfield blows my mind. Not once during his career did anyone outside his family say "wow, there's future Hall of Famer Mitch Richmond!" If Chris Webber gets in (and of Richmond is in, C-Webb should be a lock), we'll look back at that Wizards-Warriors deal as an exchange of Hall of Famers. Wow.

With that context, none of this year's modern American player inductees are all that surprising. McGinnis and McGrady would have been mentioned in any "best player on the planet right now" discussion in their respective primes, and Lobo fits nicely with other "contribution to the game" picks (Petrovic, Yao, etc.). Self and McGraw easily meet the historic standards for induction of coaches (which I agree are too lax), and while I wouldn't have voted for Jerry Krause, I can't get worked up about a GM with six rings getting inducted. I don't know enough about the other selections to have an informed opinion on those.
Richmond is 39th on the NBA's All-Time Scoring List. There isn't a HOF-eligible player above 39 who hasn't been elected. He was a 5-time All-League player. BB-Ref has him at 70% which based on their historicals barely puts him in. Close call that I could see go either way.

McGinnis is an interesting one due to his time in the ABA. Back then each team typically had 2-3 NBA high quality players on it and the rest a cluster of D-League guys so the Usage numbers of the stars was off the charts. He was a good player in the NBA for a few years, 3 All-Star games, and made it to an NBA Finals as his teams 2nd best player. McGinnis is one of the few BB-Ref outliers as they had him at a 1.1% chance of making the Hall.
 

Kliq

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Richmond scored 400 more points over his career than Jamison.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Richmond scored 400 more points over his career than Jamison.
Jamison was the only scorer on some of the leagues All-Time worst teams in Golden State and Cleveland. They were also among the worst defensive teams that Antwan contributed to as well. I mean yeah he put up points in some dubious situations but overall he was like a rich mans Marreese Speights. He was overall a fair NBA player probably best suited to be a 2nd unit scorer on a playoff team where his defense could be hidden.

I'm not sure there has been an NBA player who has recorded more Losses than Jamison.
 

the moops

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If my bb-ref skills are any good, it is telling me that Antawn Jamison is 13th all time with 661 losses (includes both reg season and playoffs).

TOP 20
1 Kevin Willis F 1985 2007 715
2 Kevin Garnett F 1996 2016 710
3 Elvin Hayes* F 1969 1984 700
4 Reggie Miller* G 1988 2005 690
5 Johnny Newman F 1987 2002 687
6 Andre Miller G 2000 2016 681
7 Robert Parish* C 1977 1997 674
8 Vince Carter G 1999 2017 668
9 Jamal Crawford G 2001 2017 667
10 Otis Thorpe F 1985 2001 667
11 Paul Pierce F 1999 2017 664
12 Jason Terry G 2000 2017 662
13 Juwan Howard F 1995 2012 661
14 Antawn Jamison F 1999 2014 661
15 Mark Jackson G 1988 2004 659
16 Derek Harper G 1984 1999 658
17 Jason Kidd G 1995 2013 658
18 Buck Williams F 1982 1998 654
19 Herb Williams C 1982 1999 653
20 Joe Johnson G 2002 2017 648
 

Kliq

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Jamison was the only scorer on some of the leagues All-Time worst teams in Golden State and Cleveland. They were also among the worst defensive teams that Antwan contributed to as well. I mean yeah he put up points in some dubious situations but overall he was like a rich mans Marreese Speights. He was overall a fair NBA player probably best suited to be a 2nd unit scorer on a playoff team where his defense could be hidden.

I'm not sure there has been an NBA player who has recorded more Losses than Jamison.
I'm not making the case for Jamison, just that if a guy accumulates enough counting stats over the years he has a chance, even if it is minuscule to make the HoF. If you are making the case for Richmond by saying he is 39th all time in scoring (he is actually 43rd) and that nobody in the top 43 (discounting active guys) isn't in the hall of fame, then it is fair to presume that the guy who is ranked 45th all-time has a shot.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Mitch Richmond being in Springfield blows my mind. Not once during his career did anyone outside his family say "wow, there's future Hall of Famer Mitch Richmond!" If Chris Webber gets in (and of Richmond is in, C-Webb should be a lock), we'll look back at that Wizards-Warriors deal as an exchange of Hall of Famers. Wow.

With that context, none of this year's modern American player inductees are all that surprising. McGinnis and McGrady would have been mentioned in any "best player on the planet right now" discussion in their respective primes, and Lobo fits nicely with other "contribution to the game" picks (Petrovic, Yao, etc.). Self and McGraw easily meet the historic standards for induction of coaches (which I agree are too lax), and while I wouldn't have voted for Jerry Krause, I can't get worked up about a GM with six rings getting inducted. I don't know enough about the other selections to have an informed opinion on those.
Michael Jordan called Mitch Richmond the 2nd best SG in the game behind himself and the hardest match up he ever faced. Not once? When Jordan retired briefly, Mitch Richmond was considered by some to be the best SG in the league with Drexler in the argument as well.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I'm not making the case for Jamison, just that if a guy accumulates enough counting stats over the years he has a chance, even if it is minuscule to make the HoF. If you are making the case for Richmond by saying he is 39th all time in scoring (he is actually 43rd) and that nobody in the top 43 (discounting active guys) isn't in the hall of fame, then it is fair to presume that the guy who is ranked 45th all-time has a shot.
The difference is that Richmond was a two-way player on competitive teams and considered one of the best of his era at the shooting guard position. Jamison was a one-way player and defensive liability on godawful teams who wouldn't have even started on many good teams even during his prime. I get about the accumulation of stats but Jamison's stats were so empty being accumulated on several sub-20 win teams. He was to the forward position what Reggie Theus was to the guard position.....I'd imagine he's just below moops Top-20 due to him being out of the game in his early 30's otherwise he'd have been at the top of this list too.
 
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Cesar Crespo

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Did the people questioning the Richmond selection actually see Mitch Richmond play during his peak prior to the 98-99 season? He fell off after the 97/98 campaign like most players do around age 33.
 

Kliq

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Michael Jordan called Mitch Richmond the 2nd best SG in the game behind himself and the hardest match up he ever faced. Not once? When Jordan retired briefly, Mitch Richmond was considered by some to be the best SG in the league with Drexler in the argument as well.
That is just Jordan sticking it to Clyde because Clyde has said on multiple occasions he thinks he is as good as MJ. Drexler was twice the player Richmond was.
 

HomeRunBaker

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That is just Jordan sticking it to Clyde because Clyde has said on multiple occasions he thinks he is as good as MJ. Drexler was twice the player Richmond was.
Yeah, the gap was fairly large between Jordan to Drexler......but from Drexler to that next group of Reggie Miller, Richmond, etc it was equally as large.
 

Cesar Crespo

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That is just Jordan sticking it to Clyde because Clyde has said on multiple occasions he thinks he is as good as MJ. Drexler was twice the player Richmond was.
It was him sticking it to Latrell Sprewell since it was around 96 or 97. Drexler was well in decline but he was Clyde Drexler so he still got some love from the fans. Sprewell took it as a slight and used it as motivation. Richmond and Spree were enjoying career seasons in 96-97.
 

Devizier

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I'll be honest, I had to look up Muffet McGraw.

Thought it was going to be some peach basket era player getting a late inauguration.
 

HomeRunBaker

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One thing to keep in mind is that this isn't an "NBA HOF" it is a Basketball HOF so there are other factors in play such as Bill Walton getting in based almost solely on his collegiate career at UCLA, Arvydas Sabonis for his European accomplishments (he'd be a lock even if he never played a game in the NBA). Still, there are some who don't have these type of non-NBA activities on their resume. IMO of course.

My Top-5 Undeserving Players in the HOF.

5. Calvin Murphy - Great college career at Niagara but it was at Niagara. He was one of the first true diminutive stars of the league but never won anything and only named to one All-Star team. Possibly his most onerous feat was impregnating 9 different women to the tune of 14 children......5 of which he allegedly sexually abused (he was acquitted at trial). Bad man.

4. Drazen Petrovic - Yes, he had great success in Croatia prior to his NBA career (2 Mr. Europas) but it wasn't nearly long enough. He was one of the first European stars to come to the NBA and made an impact......one could argue this alone gets him in. My argument is that Toni Kukoc has 4 Mr. Europa Awards, was an impactful player on NBA Championship Teams, and played into his 30's......yet I don't believe was even nominated much less inducted.

3. Bill Bradley - The epitome of overrated. Good shooter and solid player on some real good Knick teams, fairly one dimensional and arguably the 4th-5th best player on his own team. HOF? If he wasn't a popular politician he'd be long forgotten.

2. Andy Philip - Nice role player on several teams and was Cousy's backup in Boston at the end of his career. Maybe he was inducted based on his college career which was good and his innovation as a fast break PG but a career 9/5/4 player in 8-team leagues just doesn't do it for me.

1. Frank Ramsey - Hate that #1 goes to a Celtic but this is a joke. A nice role player on Championship Teams in an 8-team league back in the late '50's. If Ramsey is in then open the door for Scott Wedman and Robert Horry.


* Side note - Will someone please get Bobby Huggins into the Hall while he's still alive so his players can enjoy the tribute with him? Once he passes he's a lock......just do it now he's more than deserving for his impact on the college game and his kids.
 

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HEY! DOES ANYBODY KNOW IF JERRY KRAUSE IS DEAD YET?

He is?

OK, time to put him into the HOF.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Bob Houbregs, Guy Rodgers?
Houbregs had a dreadful NBA career but his induction is based like Walton solely on his collegiate career and being the first Canadian player to make an impact in the game. Rodgers I could go either way on like many of his peers from that era......I'm one of those people not impressed by the "dominance" of Red's Celtics and the Yankees of that day. I AM impressed with Red Auerbach on the creative ways in which he acquired his star players more so than dominating an 8-10 team league with no free agency.
 

Devizier

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Houbregs had a dreadful NBA career but his induction is based like Walton solely on his collegiate career and being the first Canadian player to make an impact in the game. Rodgers I could go either way on like many of his peers from that era......I'm one of those people not impressed by the "dominance" of Red's Celtics and the Yankees of that day. I AM impressed with Red Auerbach on the creative ways in which he acquired his star players more so than dominating an 8-10 team league with no free agency.
I just bag on Houbregs because UW still takes an irrational amount of pride in him.

Guy Rodgers feels like someone who wouldn't have sniffed the HOF without Wilt, but that's true of a lot of Celtics inductees, too.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I just bag on Houbregs because UW still takes an irrational amount of pride in him.

Guy Rodgers feels like someone who wouldn't have sniffed the HOF without Wilt, but that's true of a lot of Celtics inductees, too.
Yes agreed on Rodgers. He rode coattails much like Bradley and of course Ramsey (and others on the Celtics). I'm cranky this morning I need some Huggy love!!
 

Cesar Crespo

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Drazen Petrovic is mostly in because he died as an active NBA player. Hard to play to your 30's when you die at 28.
 

reggiecleveland

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Drazen was a great player. A friend of mine played for the Canadian team in the fateful tournament in 1987 when the Yugoslavian team, Kukoc, Radja, Divacs, beat the USA with Larry Johnson, Lionel Simmons, etc. It was taken for fact that Pertovic was the best guard not in the NBA on the international circuit at that time and he was at least 5 years younger than any other guy in the conversation.

Larry Brown came back from that 87 tournament telling USA basketball in they did not get NBA guys into the Olympics it would end up being like hockey where grown men from europe win every time.
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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The difference is that Richmond was a two-way player on competitive teams and considered one of the best of his era at the shooting guard position. Jamison was a one-way player and defensive liability on godawful teams who wouldn't have even started on many good teams even during his prime. I get about the accumulation of stats but Jamison's stats were so empty being accumulated on several sub-20 win teams. He was to the forward position what Reggie Theus was to the guard position.....I'd imagine he's just below moops Top-20 due to him being out of the game in his early 30's otherwise he'd have been at the top of this list too.
I also think scoring PPG comes into play here. Richmond is top 45 in both points and PPG. Jamison is 45th in points, not even top 100 in PPG (and falling) behind guys like IT4 and Brook Lopez. Everyone ahead of Richmond in PPG is either in or should get in (Cousins and Blake Griffin maybe the shakiest), with one exception: Geoff Petrie, at 21.82 PPG, good for 33rd all time. His six year career ended before the 3 point shot came in to play. Had no idea the guy could score like that, he was a bit before my time.
 

snowmanny

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Yeah, it's funny because to me it seemed Drazen Petrovic was basically a given as a HOFer from almost the first moment I was aware of him: the hype was that big and what he meant in terms of European basketball seemed huge.

Saying Bradley's political career in any way fueled his fame as a basketball player seems backwards. He was Final Four MVP (despite not playing in the Championship game), won titles in the NBA and Euroleague, won a Gold medal, was the Sullivan Award winner as top amateur athlete, and is probably the best player in the history of the Ivy League. I get he was overrated as a pro, but everything about those Knick teams was blown out of all proportion; don't get me started.
 

reggiecleveland

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Bradley is from an era when guys played four years in college. College was at least as big as the NBA when he played. Some older hoops guys I know say it is impossible to explain how big he was, and how great he was in college. He was a Rhodes Scholar and many consider him the last of the true student athletes. WHen I was akid falling in lve with basketball, n the era of books, almost every basketball book had Wilt, Russell, West, Big O, Elgin, and Bradley too.
 

joe dokes

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Bradley is from an era when guys played four years in college. College was at least as big as the NBA when he played. Some older hoops guys I know say it is impossible to explain how big he was, and how great he was in college. He was a Rhodes Scholar and many consider him the last of the true student athletes.
They only played 3. Freshmen were still ineligible when Bradley -- and Alcindor -- were in college. Into the early 70s, iirc.
 

Kliq

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K.C. Jones was always a really low bar. He only played nine seasons and didn't start for half of them and averaged 7-4-3 for his career in an era when stats were completely out of control. He made his reputation as a defensive specialist; yet was at best the third best defender on his own team. His claim to fame is he won a championship in college, a gold medal and an NBA championship; but he was Bill Russell's teammate for all of those things.
 

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K.C. Jones was always a really low bar. He only played nine seasons and didn't start for half of them and averaged 7-4-3 for his career in an era when stats were completely out of control. He made his reputation as a defensive specialist; yet was at best the third best defender on his own team. His claim to fame is he won a championship in college, a gold medal and an NBA championship; but he was Bill Russell's teammate for all of those things.
Isn't his case built as much on his coaching accomplishments as his playing years? You can attack the overall case, but you have to address the other side of the coin to do so coherently.
 

Kliq

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Isn't his case built as much on his coaching accomplishments as his playing years? You can attack the overall case, but you have to address the other side of the coin to do so coherently.
He was inducted as a player in 1989; just a year removed from coaching he Celtics. The HOF inducts coaches and players separately, I don't think they combine cases. For instance, Tommy Heinsohn was inducted twice, once as a player and once as a coach.

Even if you count his coaching career, all he needed to do to win two titles was basically roll out the balls.
 

the moops

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Even if you count his coaching career, all he needed to do to win two titles was basically roll out the balls.
I am not the biggest fan, but this is just a tad harsh, don't you think? He won titles as a coach against an incredible Laker team and against a Twin Tower Houston team
 

reggiecleveland

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More than few people said KC was criminally under-rated as a coach because he was not of the Pat Riley "Look at Me!" style of modern coaching. When cameras first came into huddles KC looked bad when his assistants were talking and he was quiet. Often we remember where we ended up, not how we go there. The phrase "Cancer on the team" was I believe originally coined to discuss Dennis Johnson before he came to Boston. McHale was the original "black hole" and Bird's trash talking confrontational ways were often out of control, as he admits now when discussing his fight with Dr. J. When the 84 aqnd 86 Celtics won there was a legitimate GOAT conversation going on about Bird, and the "Slow White Guy" dominates Black Super-athletes narrative did not leave much air in the room for an understated selfless black coach.

Red also had no problem inserting himself in the public eye, and when VHS coaching videos were hitting the market for the first time Red had himself, not KC on the court with Celts.

Russell says KC was a big believer that his job was mostly done before the game, and despite his pedigree as part of the greatest dynasty ever, saw letting Bird put his stamp on the team as the way to win. I think the line was "KC wants rings, not credit." He was not one to insert himself at the front of things. He is also given top marks by more than a few people for helping black Celtic players deal with the best two players being white guys, and how fairly or otherwise the Celtics were seen as white America's team.

Thinking of the Patriots, today imagine how badly people outside of Boston wanted the Celtics to lose. When Cousy left it was assumed, and hoped for, the end of the run. But they were if anything they were more dominant. So perhaps KC was over rated as a player because of that. But it is also possible that the people that were around then, that gave him a big part of the credit for how the Celtics fast break ran, how their defence sparked the offence appreciated something about KC the player we will never understand.
 
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snowmanny

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As Reggie said, there was the famous moment (maybe in the 1975 run to the finals) when Bullets AC Bernie Bickerstaff gave instructions to the team during a timeout while KC looked confused.

As for just rolling out the ball and winning titles, it's true and a valid point but not everyone can do it. Bill Fitch was getting in the way so much they quit on him.

As a player I suppose KC got in on defensive reputation, NBA titles, college success. But it does seem relatively weak.
 

Kliq

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I am not the biggest fan, but this is just a tad harsh, don't you think? He won titles as a coach against an incredible Laker team and against a Twin Tower Houston team
Because KC had such a successful coaching career when he wasn't coaching Larry Bird. If he was even a slightly-above average NBA coach I imagine he would have had more success outside of Boston and not finished his career coaching the New England Blizzards of the American Basketball League.
 
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reggiecleveland

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I see this in basketball all the time when compared to other sports. While a baseball team could have as many HOF players as they could theoretically acquire, similarly for football. The nature of basketball is that at most 3 of the players can be getting the ball enough to be real stars. So when basketball elects the same number of HOF players as baseball and football, the bar probably gets lowered. If you go back to the 8 team NBA 25% of the starters were either 1st or 2nd team all NBA each year. This was happening while baseball was electing guys from 16 teams leagues, with theoretically 13 guys per team getting the opportunity to establish HOF credentials plus a 40 year backlog.

There was a feeling among many that the 1967 76ers were voted best team ever in the NBA anniversary as a jealous swipe at the Celtics. I would speculate when voters saw KC's name, after he had just coached the 86 team, the reining GTOAT in recent memory,a perfect storm of extra votes accumulated.

I recall Russell campaigning hard for KC as the ultimate winner too. In pre stathead days it is hard to overestimate how much the testimonial of a big star meant. Remember when Bird said DJ was the best player he ever played with? (Which now seems was done to appease DJ's ego because he was so overshadowed by McHale and the Chief) many talking heads legitimately discussed whether Dennis Johnson was one of the top guards in history.
 

joe dokes

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Because KC had such a successful coaching career when he wasn't coaching Larry Bird. If he was even a slightly-above average NBA coach I imagine he would have had more success outside of Boston and not finished his career coaching the New England Blizzards of the American Basketball League.
He had two pretty good and one really good year with the Bullets before he coached the Celtics, and made the playoffs in 5 of his 6 non-Celtics years. I think that probably is at least slightly above average.
 

the moops

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Because KC had such a successful coaching career when he wasn't coaching Larry Bird. If he was even a slightly-above average NBA coach I imagine he would have had more success outside of Boston and not finished his career coaching the New England Blizzards of the American Basketball League.
He was 214-150 in his career coaching in the NBA outside of Boston. Did he stab your dog or something?
 

Kliq

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I will admit that KC had a more successful coaching career than I originally gave him credit for.

But you guys are not moving me off this hill. The original conversation was about the worst players in the Hall of Fame, and KC is one of if not the worst in it. I love Red and Russell, but all old-time NBA teammates and coaches gush about what a great player so-and-so was; read any book about basketball teams from pre-1990s and they are all like that.

I don't think that Jones was a bad player or not even an above average one, but he doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. For instance, do you guys think that Derek Fisher is a Hall of Fame player? His career averages 8-2-3 are similar to Jones 7-3-4 and he was a better shooter (even accounting for era standards) and was a solid defensive player. His career was quite literally twice as long and he played for five championship teams and started for four of them. Fisher isn't even going to sniff the hall, nor should he.

Again, I don't think Fisher is a bad player or anything. When Simmons re-did the HoF in his book one of the wrinkles he added was a special section for players that were not in the HoF, but were important role players on an inordinate amount of successful teams. That would be so guys like Fisher, Steve Kerr, Robert Horry, Bill Laimbeer, Bruce Bowen etc. have their spot in the hall.