Barcelona 2013-2014: When very good is still not good enough

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Bosoxen said:
 
What you are proposing is in direct conflict with the spirit of the rule (sleepyjose and I both addressed that in our posts). The reason that "combo" is in place is to discourage players from engaging in that sort of behavior. Yes, the penalty is severe but that's the whole point. If you were to lessen the severity of the consequences of such an infraction, you would see the frequency of it drastically increase. I don't know about you, but I think anything that unduly hinders breakaway goal scoring opportunities is a bad thing for the game.
Meh, the number of breakaway opportunities in which the foul occurs in the box is extremely small. It wouldn't change behavior much at all. Football wasn't always this way and doesn't need to be this way forever.

In any case, the rule is the rule and I think Pellegrini's postmatch bitching is fairly unjustified.
 

Bosoxen

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
Meh, the number of breakaway opportunities in which the foul occurs in the box is extremely small. It wouldn't change behavior much at all. Football wasn't always this way and doesn't need to be this way forever.

In any case, the rule is the rule and I think Pellegrini's postmatch bitching is fairly unjustified.
 
That's the whole point. The combination of the red card and penalty kick is meant to be a deterrent. Remove one of the penalties and you no longer have a strong enough deterrent to keep the number "extremely small".
 
I feel I should also point out that you seem to be belaboring the point an awful lot for something you consider merely "meh".
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Bosoxen said:
That's the whole point. The combination of the red card and penalty kick is meant to be a deterrent. Remove one of the penalties and you no longer have a strong enough deterrent to keep the number "extremely small".
I don't buy that - the rules may alter player incentives regarding how they react to certain situations, but they won't alter the incidence of those situations (breakaways in which a tackle might occur in the box).

I feel I should also point out that you seem to be belaboring the point an awful lot for something you consider merely "meh".
 
I made a one-off tangential comment in the context of a conversation about the match. You're the one who has been aggressively pursuing the point since then. I'm happy to agree to disagree.
 

teddykgb

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
Meh, the number of breakaway opportunities in which the foul occurs in the box is extremely small. It wouldn't change behavior much at all. Football wasn't always this way and doesn't need to be this way forever.

In any case, the rule is the rule and I think Pellegrini's postmatch bitching is fairly unjustified.
Most of Pellegrini's bitching seems to be about the ref in general, not this topic in particular. Barcelona went down easily yesterday and got plenty of calls for it. Navas then goes down softly on his own and it turns into an incorrectly awarded penalty and a correctly awarded red card. City possibly could have held on to a 0-0 with 10 men, but needed to attack at 1-0. So while in general I'm not a fan of the manager whining about the ref, it's probably not unjustified here.

Obviously, i'm viewing this through blue colored glasses, but the ref seemed to show an uncanny deference to Barcelona, which is a lot like saying the sky is blue. I wasn't even overly angered by it yesterday because this is what you're dealing with if you're going to play a team with the prestige of Barca, plus we've been playing Baconface for just about forever and dealing with this kind of nonsense. I guess I'm just not overly angered if a manager loses his shit after a tense match like this, it's pretty typical really.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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teddykgb said:
Most of Pellegrini's bitching seems to be about the ref in general, not this topic in particular. Barcelona went down easily yesterday and got plenty of calls for it. Navas then goes down softly on his own and it turns into an incorrectly awarded penalty and a correctly awarded red card. City possibly could have held on to a 0-0 with 10 men, but needed to attack at 1-0. So while in general I'm not a fan of the manager whining about the ref, it's probably not unjustified here.

Obviously, i'm viewing this through blue colored glasses, but the ref seemed to show an uncanny deference to Barcelona, which is a lot like saying the sky is blue. I wasn't even overly angered by it yesterday because this is what you're dealing with if you're going to play a team with the prestige of Barca, plus we've been playing Baconface for just about forever and dealing with this kind of nonsense. I guess I'm just not overly angered if a manager loses his shit after a tense match like this, it's pretty typical really.
 
I can't argue with that too much.  I thought his shots at the ref being Swedish were a little out of line but the ref might have been a little overly deferential to Barca in general.  There were certainly a bunch of small incidents that seemed like ordinary physical play in the premier league that were called fouls.
 

cjdmadcow

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Despite having the purchasing power of a nation-state, City are fairly well respected here in the UK by fans of other clubs. There's certainly none of the animosity associated with that bunch of @£$%s in west London but the more Pellegrini continues to complain about the ability of a referee from Sweden to be in charge of such a game, and for Kompany to suggest that they were the better team, the more likely that fans will begin to turn against them.
 
You might not be concerned about that, it is the sort of crap that came out of Salford for decades, but do you really want to be like them? I would suggest doing what you are good at, putting a good team on the field, and learn from the experience. You are relatively new at this European stuff, it doesn't come easy just because you have an expensively assembled side.
 
As to the game itself, the better team won, the penalty was a penalty because there is no way on earth a linesman can tell if contact occurs 6-inches outside the box given the speed of the incident and if Barcelona had wanted to, they could have easily upped the pace and probably scored more. They just thought 0-1 was enough, as it was another goal followed.
 

teddykgb

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cjdmadcow said:
Despite having the purchasing power of a nation-state, City are fairly well respected here in the UK by fans of other clubs. There's certainly none of the animosity associated with that bunch of @£$%s in west London but the more Pellegrini continues to complain about the ability of a referee from Sweden to be in charge of such a game, and for Kompany to suggest that they were the better team, the more likely that fans will begin to turn against them.
 
You might not be concerned about that, it is the sort of crap that came out of Salford for decades, but do you really want to be like them? I would suggest doing what you are good at, putting a good team on the field, and learn from the experience. You are relatively new at this European stuff, it doesn't come easy just because you have an expensively assembled side.
 
As to the game itself, the better team won, the penalty was a penalty because there is no way on earth a linesman can tell if contact occurs 6-inches outside the box given the speed of the incident and if Barcelona had wanted to, they could have easily upped the pace and probably scored more. They just thought 0-1 was enough, as it was another goal followed.
We can take it to the City thread, but this post, to me, is completely insane. Nothing personal, I just couldn't disagree with it more. I have no problem with Kompany saying that it wasn't the best squad we've faced this season (it wasn't). And the manager said some semi valid things in frustration, which is what pretty much every manager does from time to time. The match itself was cagey and relatively even. City were very much in the match and the result could have easily been reversed. Hell, City created 2-3 great chances (Silva volley and Nasri and Negredo both ran free on separate occasions) when down to 10 men. Barca were always going to have more of the ball, and the manager setup to deal with that.

I reject completely that the ref can't see if it is in the box or not, since they do this all the time. We probably see this weekly in the PL where the kick is awarded just outside the box, and the linesman is essentially there for precisely this purpose. What happens from 0-0, even with 10 men, is entirely undetermined, but I think it's ridiculous to say that Barca walks that match for sure.
 

Zososoxfan

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Pretty dreadful performance over the weekend. I thought the lineup was strange, at this point, I think it's unacceptable to sit  both Xavi and Cesc. I love me Sergio, but he's not quite ready to assume the Yaya role for Barca yet. I also understand that it was injury related, but I would've tried to avoid sitting both Alba and Alves. Lastly, I didn't understand what happened to Tito at halftime, does anyone know?
 

OilCanMDS

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Zososoxfan said:
Pretty dreadful performance over the weekend. I thought the lineup was strange, at this point, I think it's unacceptable to sit  both Xavi and Cesc. I love me Sergio, but he's not quite ready to assume the Yaya role for Barca yet. I also understand that it was injury related, but I would've tried to avoid sitting both Alba and Alves. Lastly, I didn't understand what happened to Tito at halftime, does anyone know?
 
I was pretty excited to see Sergio playing farther up this pitch when the lineups were announced, even though it meant Alex Song would be on the field (I just don't like Song on this team).  Sergio's vision and passing has been improving a lot, but this game showed that he isn't ready to take on a more creative role.  I think the team really lacked any creativity coming from the right side of the field this game.  Until Cesc came on, everything flowed through Iniesta, Neymar and Messi on the left and in the middle.  
 
I don't think I'll be too sad if Montoya walks this summer.  Everything I have seen from him makes me think he is a liability when moving forward in this system.
 
Luckily, Atleti lost as well so Barcelona didn't fall to third.
 

soxfan121

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The thing I'm most interested in is how much the Rosell-Neymar's contract issue is going to affect them moving forward. Seems like the kind of thing that if it happened at Man City would be a really big deal and a "look at how corrupt this is" media shitstorm. But since its Barca, it is mostly being swept under the rug so far.
 

Zososoxfan

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OilCanMDS said:
 
I was pretty excited to see Sergio playing farther up this pitch when the lineups were announced, even though it meant Alex Song would be on the field (I just don't like Song on this team).  Sergio's vision and passing has been improving a lot, but this game showed that he isn't ready to take on a more creative role.  I think the team really lacked any creativity coming from the right side of the field this game.  Until Cesc came on, everything flowed through Iniesta, Neymar and Messi on the left and in the middle.  
 
I don't think I'll be too sad if Montoya walks this summer.  Everything I have seen from him makes me think he is a liability when moving forward in this system.
 
Luckily, Atleti lost as well so Barcelona didn't fall to third.
 
Agreed on Song and Montoya. I'd still keep Bartra, but all of these lack of options are a result of Barca not signing a premier CB to pair with Pique to replace Puyol. If Barca had another solid CB, Mascherano would backup Sergio and the CB spots.
 
soxfan121 said:
The thing I'm most interested in is how much the Rosell-Neymar's contract issue is going to affect them moving forward. Seems like the kind of thing that if it happened at Man City would be a really big deal and a "look at how corrupt this is" media shitstorm. But since its Barca, it is mostly being swept under the rug so far.
 
That's because the English [clubs] are pretentious and act like they're above the fray where in reality, they are not. Although this could be symptomatic of the influx of foreign owners (I don't know enough about the EPL to comment one way or another). But, you can't deny the fact that the Italians and Spaniards don't care much about "scandals" and employing shady business tactics. That was a big reason why I was so surprised about the reffing scandal in Italy - not that it was happening, but that there was significant bite to the sanctions. I also recall reading an article (I think over at Soccernet.com) about the Maletines in Spanish soccer, where, in the last few weeks of the season, some clubs apparently deliver briefcases full of cash to others in order to influence otherwise unimportant games to their benefit.
 

soxfan121

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Zososoxfan said:
 
Agreed on Song and Montoya. I'd still keep Bartra, but all of these lack of options are a result of Barca not signing a premier CB to pair with Pique to replace Puyol. If Barca had another solid CB, Mascherano would backup Sergio and the CB spots.
 
 
That's because the English [clubs] are pretentious and act like they're above the fray where in reality, they are not. Although this could be symptomatic of the influx of foreign owners (I don't know enough about the EPL to comment one way or another). But, you can't deny the fact that the Italians and Spaniards don't care much about "scandals" and employing shady business tactics. That was a big reason why I was so surprised about the reffing scandal in Italy - not that it was happening, but that there was significant bite to the sanctions. I also recall reading an article (I think over at Soccernet.com) about the Maletines in Spanish soccer, where, in the last few weeks of the season, some clubs apparently deliver briefcases full of cash to others in order to influence otherwise unimportant games to their benefit.
 
 

Zososoxfan

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Big win over the weekend for Barca (I guess they're all big at this point), with the Madrids playing to a riveting draw (no sarcasm). Alexis got a terrific poacher's goal, Messi scored an UNBELIEVABLE free kick, Puyol had a terrific effort goal (IIRC off of a corner), and Xavi got a last minute goal on a beautiful arching shot. Pique sat, as did Iniesta (before coming on as a late sub (around the 75 minute mark). Dani Alves had an absolutely incredible game, threatening down the flank for the full 90 and playing excellent defense. This was a quintessential Barca game with Tiki Taka on full display. While Neymar continues to show individual brilliance, he still seems just a hair off from the rest of the squad. Especially early on as Barca had some excellent chances, he seemed to start his runs just a tad late or didn't see angles until it was too late. I'm not especially concerned by this as Barca has an incredibly difficult system to learn and even the best players have trouble meshing (see: Ibrahimovic, Zlatan and Hleb, Alexander), especially in their first seasons. The D was suspect at times, but I wasn't nearly as concerned as the announcers were throughout the second half. Almeria had one attack that seemingly involved all 11 players, but otherwise weren't threatening consistently.
 

OilCanMDS

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Puyol is leaving after this season.  http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/26439050
 
The article says that the club and the player agreed to rescind the final years of his contract to allow him to leave this season.  It sucks that he is leaving, but with his inability to stay healthy in recent years it seems like it might be the right time for him to move on.  I hope this finally spurs Barca to sign a legitimate CB this upcoming summer.
 
It sucks to see the old guard starting to leave Barca.  Valdes and Puyol will be gone this summer, and rumors persist that Xavi could be leaving soon as well.  Xavi has stepped up his play recently, and I think he will stick around for at least one more year.  Hopefully, some of the young guys (Sergi Roberto, Rafinha and Bartra especially) can step up to fill the void being left by these players leaving.  
 

Vinho Tinto

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OilCanMDS said:
Puyol is leaving after this season.  http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/26439050
 
The article says that the club and the player agreed to rescind the final years of his contract to allow him to leave this season.  It sucks that he is leaving, but with his inability to stay healthy in recent years it seems like it might be the right time for him to move on.  I hope this finally spurs Barca to sign a legitimate CB this upcoming summer.
 
It sucks to see the old guard starting to leave Barca.  Valdes and Puyol will be gone this summer, and rumors persist that Xavi could be leaving soon as well.  Xavi has stepped up his play recently, and I think he will stick around for at least one more year.  Hopefully, some of the young guys (Sergi Roberto, Rafinha and Bartra especially) can step up to fill the void being left by these players leaving.  
 
During the last couple of years, Xavi has become their poster boy; but Puyol was it when Xavi was getting jerked around by Rijkaard. The defensive Captain who grew up in Catalonia was the endless theme. It's a little surreal to see him reach the end, but it's been on the horizon for a while. It was very special for Barca to have two legends grow up in Catalonia. 
 
Puyol was never a great athlete, but what a player. Seemed to win ever 50/50 ball from sheer will. As it stands I counted 21 trophies with the club, 2 with Spain, and an Olympic silver medal. 
 
The 2 questions are where does he play next season (Hopefully somewhere in Europe) and does he get a prominent role at the club after he retires?  
 

OilCanMDS

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Vinho Tinto said:
 
During the last couple of years, Xavi has become their poster boy; but Puyol was it when Xavi was getting jerked around by Rijkaard. The defensive Captain who grew up in Catalonia was the endless theme. It's a little surreal to see him reach the end, but it's been on the horizon for a while. It was very special for Barca to have two legends grow up in Catalonia. 
 
Puyol was never a great athlete, but what a player. Seemed to win ever 50/50 ball from sheer will. As it stands I counted 21 trophies with the club, 2 with Spain, and an Olympic silver medal. 
 
The 2 questions are where does he play next season (Hopefully somewhere in Europe) and does he get a prominent role at the club after he retires?  
 
I haven't seen anything that seems legit about where Puyol could end up next year, but MLS rumors have popped up a couple times.  I think journalists just make those up anytime an aging star decides to move on from a top club.
 
On an unrelated note, the lose this weekend is pretty shocking.  I have to imagine Martino's seat is getting really warm and there is a good chance they bring in somebody else next season if Barca fails to win La Liga or at least make it to the finals in Champions League.  This isn't like last season where the team seemed to have tired down the stretch and their performance suffered.  Martino doesn't seem to be able to get a consistent performance out of the squad.  Maybe this is because of his constant shuffling of the MF and wings, which he kind of had to do to avoid the team tiring down the stretch again.
 

soxfan121

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The Man City financed MLS club in NY would make some sense, given the Man City - Barca front office ties.
 

Billy R Ford

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soxfan121 said:
The Man City financed MLS club in NY would make some sense, given the Man City - Barca front office ties.
 
 
Thing is, they don't start playing until 2015, so he'd be off for ~9 months in between.
 
That's what Jay DeMerit did after the 2010 World Cup, but I don't think it was really by choice.
 

soxfan121

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Billy R Ford said:
 
 
Thing is, they don't start playing until 2015, so he'd be off for ~9 months in between.
 
That's what Jay DeMerit did after the 2010 World Cup, but I don't think it was really by choice.
 
Ah, thanks. I lost track of their launch date. 
 

Zososoxfan

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Big win yesterday. Some sketchy refereeing calls, but the better team won IMHO. Playing 4 in the midfield made a huge difference, with Xavi, Iniesta, Sergio, and Cesc there, I'd be surprised if any other team in the world could possess in the MF against Barca. Messi was brilliant, but Neymar didn't do much for me. I know he's incredibly talented, but with this lineup, I'd almost rather see Sanchez, who is the best pure finisher on the team as I see it. Pedro is best when playing in a wing role. Really, it's hard to figure out the optimal way to deploy all these weapons, but with Xavi's age, I think getting 4 MF out there helps a lot. Also, with our FB Alves and Alba, it's just not fair how talented this team is. Onward!
 

teddykgb

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Neymar did something, he dove a lot.

I concur that the better team won. Messi was fantastic and the difference between City and Barcelona was evident. At this level, you simply can't carry players who cannot play the ball. Kompany was gallant yesterday, but you just can't defend alone. It is too bad we never really had Aguero for this tie, it might have been very different. The 2nd goal at the Etihad was a real back breaker, I think a 1-0 could have been reversed.
 

Schnerres

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Zososoxfan said:
 Playing 4 in the midfield made a huge difference, with Xavi, Iniesta, Sergio, and Cesc there, I'd be surprised if any other team in the world could possess in the MF against Barca.
 
Bayern, obviously.
Roll out Ribery/Robben on the wings, then someone from Kroos, Schweinsteiger, Thiago, Götze, Müller, in midfield or someone (Götze or Müller) as a false9 or Mandzukic up front.
 

Zososoxfan

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Barca's already put 3 beautiful goals in today. As I write this, Messi scores a 2nd. Just a great game to have going into el Clasico next week. Vamos carajo!
 

Zososoxfan

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Barca draws Atleti in the CL quarters. Can't complain because at this stage of the competition there are no gimmes and avoiding Bayern is about as good as you can hope for. It seems like they re-draw the semis, but that doesn't jibe with my memory. Anyone know the answer and if so, which matchup the winner of Barca-Atleti gets?
 

Zososoxfan

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OilCanMDS said:
Semi-finals are drawn.  http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2014/draws/round=2000482/index.html
 
The draw is open, so we won't know who they could be facing until the quarterfinals are done.
 
Maybe it's just because the tourney is so awesome in many unique ways, but part of me wishes they would set out a draw for the knockout stages and not redraw. That way, you would know your path to the Championship and potential matchups along the way. You could still try and keep teams from the same countries apart as long as possible, which I think is valid.
 

Schnerres

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How would you do this if you have Real-Dortmund, ManU-Bayern, PSG-Chelsea and then had smth like english team (City) vs.Barca or just had City beaten Barca and you had Athletico vs.City...This way you have multiple scenarios which you had to avoid to not play any teams from the same country..which would not be possible...
 

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Some game.  Annoying when clash of the titans type games are (potentially) decided by refereeing errors, though.  

Even more annoying when players try to lobby the ref to get other players sent off like Ramos did.
 

Apisith

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I'm 50/50 about that. There was contact but Iniesta made the most of that.
 
Messi is just inhuman.
 

Royal Reader

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Barca wins.  Interminable round of discussions about officiating commences.

Best result for the neutral hoping for a tight title race.

Forza Atleti.
 

triniSox

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The Neymar one was a dive. The Ronaldo one was outside the box. The Iniesta one was a clear penalty.
 

CodPiece XL

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I dont know what channel people were watching the game on but I watched it on BeINSports ( fist time, I've watched a game on it)......that color commentator is crazy .....,maybe he will grow on me but I doubt it.
 
Just a few examples from the last 10 minutes.
 
" Real Madrid's defence is working harder than a one eyed cat guarding 3 mouse holes"
 
" Iniesta pulls another rabbit out of the hat, but it was better than that, he pulled a peacock....majestic"
 
" In the U.S they  give names to hurricanes, if they call one Lionel Messi, look out......you better evacuate!"
 
" Messi is cooler than a bomb disposal expert"
 
Good Lord...
 

SoxFanInCali

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Ray Hudson calls a game like I would if I was trying to speak in a ridiculously over the top English accent after about 14 beers.
 
That said, great game.  It's the first time ever that a Barca player has had a hat trick at the Bernabeu.
 
Barca have Atletico at home for the last game of the season.  Real might need Barca's help to win the title.
 

CodPiece XL

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Yeah, it was Hudson, as others have pointed out.
 
Initially,  I thought it was Sid Waddell ( the voice of darts) but of course...he's dead.
 
Just in case people are wondering who Sid is:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aKiDZRGRGo
 

sdiaz1

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The match was incredible, at least it was until the ref sent Ramos off for fanning air in the general direction of Neymar. I am not a fan of blaming the ref for results, and Madrid were gifted with a pen (on a clear foul that occurred outside of the area) but to not only give a penalty but to send Ramos off for what was practically zero contact? That is an utter crock of shit. From that point on, it was all Barca, and the match as an actual contest was over.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQyPK5vsz8I
 

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Incredible game until Ramos was sent off.  To be honest I didn't think the second one was a penalty either.  Whether he meant to or not, Alonso does get the ball before the man.
 
 
I thought Di Maria and Modric were the best players on the pitch today.  Gotta be tough for Madrid when they probably played better than Barca and still came up second best.
 

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That's about as exciting as 90 minutes of futbol can be. I'd rather have no penalties awarded to avoid any controversy, but it seems like both teams benefitted from questionable decisions. Ecstatic with the result, la liga's home stretch just got a helluva lot more interesting.
 

OilCanMDS

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Zomp said:
Incredible game until Ramos was sent off.  To be honest I didn't think the second one was a penalty either.  Whether he meant to or not, Alonso does get the ball before the man.
 
 
I thought Di Maria and Modric were the best players on the pitch today.  Gotta be tough for Madrid when they probably played better than Barca and still came up second best.
 
That was one of the best games I have seen this season.  Barca's midfield looked to be in great form and worked really well together.  I was especially happy that Cesc and Iniesta were able to play in the midfield together and not get in each other's way.  The difference between their play together from last season to this season is huge.
 
I have to disagree about Di Maria and Modric being the best players on the pitch.  I thought Di Maria played especially well, but I think Iniesta was the best player on the pitch today.  It was a vintage performance for him, and his run and finish on that first goal were amazing.  I also thought Alba had a great game today.  He did really well getting forward to help the attack while also defending Bale.  Basically all of Madrid's attack came from Di Maria and Ronaldo on the opposite side.
 
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